Ep. 248 Beau S. Victorian Police - 3 Zeros Coffee

SPEAKER_04 0:22

We'll give you the motivation to take on whatever life brings into you in the beginning to complete any goal you can get your money to.

SPEAKER_01 0:30

Let it um listen to the case.

SPEAKER_02 0:42

Zero Limits listeners on today's Zero Linux Podcast in the Newcastle studio, joined by a 21-year veteran, police veteran of the Victorian police. Extensive career, multiple different scenarios, uh obviously general duties, moving into response units and armed robbery units and uh detective and cert and a bit of everything. This guy has done at all witness protection, which we can't talk too much about, but definitely rip into all the other subjects. Uh, not to mention this guy is one of the founding members of 3-0's coffee. Now, I think I guess a lot of listeners out there know that I've been drinking my long blacks, how I like my men, for a very long time now, and it's all been supplied by 3-0's Coffee. And we know for a fact it's pretty vague on who was in control of 3-0's coffee for the past few years, because a lot of the guys are actually currently serving police officers, and the guy I'm speaking to now, he was one as well. Uh, so they kind of had to keep who they were suppressed because of their job roles. Like I said, witness protection stuff, so they can't really come out and say, Oh, yeah, I do witness protection. Then I sell coffee as well. But finally, one of them has got out. He's been out for about a year, two years now, and has finally decided to come on because I think it's really good for the brand for the 30s coffee to now put a face behind the brand and actually show that it is actual cops, not not uh waltz. Bo, mate, welcome. Here you here you are, finally.

SPEAKER_03 2:20

Mate, I got you.

SPEAKER_02 2:22

Mate, you bookline the sinker.

SPEAKER_03 2:24

Yeah, it's taken a while, but uh yeah, really surreal feeling to be um yeah, sitting in the studio with you, mate. And um, yeah, it's quite a um yeah, a really good uh way to come full circle with you. Like um, and just for the listeners, I don't want to hijack your show straight away, but um, I just want the listeners to know um out there that when we first approached Matty for the idea about three zeros coffee where we wanted to you know help people in our community and um and not have any constraints about how we went about it and how to raise that money, um we were introduced to Matt and straight off the bat, this dude he's helped this brand and get us um get us going, get us to the point where we are now. So, mate, just say me and Andrew really grateful for the help you've given us um to get us to this point. And um has been of a slow burn to get me here, but um I'm here now, mate, and just uh yeah, we're really grateful to have your support from the show.

SPEAKER_02 3:17

No, I appreciate it, mate. Yeah, and you know, the the the whole point of behind these podcasts was not only to share stories from cops, fieries, ambos, fieries, uh fieries, I've said that again. I love the fieries, especially with their furries too. Especially with their shirts off. Um, and you know, military guys was not again, not only to share their stories, but also promote what they're doing in their lives post-service. You know, it's it's one of those things where a lot of, especially cops, a lot of cops that I speak to, even cops that are in in the cops now, they reach out to me and like, oh, think about leaving police. I don't know if I will because I'm kind of comfortable. I'm like, there's a there's green grass out there, there's a whole world out there, and especially for the cops that are listening, you your job role and your qualifications highly desirable within the corporate structure. People love cops, not military so much because we're just you know we're we're we're thugs, some would say, war criminals, as some as some others would say, but there's so much life after service, especially cops, fierys, uh, military, etc. And for example, like yourself, you know, not only did you start your life while in the cops, you also added to it by starting 3-0's coffee, yeah, and now expanding on it, getting outside and now putting a face to it. Now we know who it is.

SPEAKER_03 4:40

It's it's but yeah, just to touch on what you said before, Maddie, like um uh the the thing that I think I see with a lot of coppers and ex-coppers getting out in our community is um you're almost conditioned in a way to think that once you leave the police, you leave that service role that you know you're not you're not able to do anything else. And as you said, mate, the skills that um you pick up in policing, in in whichever role you do, um they they are 100% transferable into the real world. Um but it's about how you make that transition, I think is a really important piece that we need to probably yeah, probably examine a bit more closely and and and better support. Yeah. So support people. That's a big thing, isn't it? Support.

SPEAKER_02 5:21

Uh we're keeping your last name suppressed only because your wife, your better half, is still in the job and working within a specific unit.

SPEAKER_03 5:31

Yeah, uh well, yeah, I'm a very private person, as everyone knows. But um, yeah, so she's still uh she's a detective sergeant at the um she works at a joint task force that um investigate uh child abuse matters, uh probably up that upper end. So yeah, no, she's still in service and uh I've got yeah, my brother's still on the job and um Andrew's from a police family, so yeah, and I've still got setting plenty of ties uh back into the into the police, but um for now, yeah, we'll just just leave it at leave it at bow, but we are real people.

SPEAKER_02 6:02

Yeah, no, you're exactly right. And uh Andrew, if you're listening, mate, I know you are. I need to get your dad on. Oh get your dad on. Yeah, but you know, speaking about your wife, uh, you know, in the job still, but in that child abuse area is just you know, I I've been privileged enough to have like uh Detective John Better on the podcast probably about a hundred episodes ago now, but uh and a few other guys have worked in that space within that child protective you know services side of things. And mate, the stories that come out of that, how these cops do their job, like it's so valuable for what they do, and I I thank them so much. And they're only need more than ever now. Like, there's it just seems like there's so much of this shit coming out now, but how do they do their job and just you know, and I'm sure it affects a lot of them. I'm sure their drinking habits and smoking habits or whatever's is got to be elevated, yeah, because the shit they got to witness. And I think I had um you know, speaking to John Bretter and uh had an American guy on a spoke about his life within um Department of Homeland, and that they were doing part of that stuff in there, and he said they had to watch every second of every video and every picture and just to build evidence, but the stuff that you're gonna be witnessing, fuck mate, that's gotta be traumatizing. Like and but also give you the hunger to hunt these motherfuckers down and put them away, yeah. Only for the judicial system, letting them back out a few years later.

SPEAKER_03 7:32

But anyway, yeah, look, I um the that sort of work I've obviously had in some involvement along along away as a detective in those matters, but um the men and women, like particularly in all the sockets and a jacket and stuff, they're they're doing incredible work. And I think like we were talking about before, is um you know, and and coming on this podcast is is in a way is like to share a few of these stories just to let people know that um this is what coppers deal with every day. And so if you have an interaction with someone, they might not be as might not be as nice or as civil as you may may expect, but they're doing these things on the daily, and I think um people don't realise the the scope of police work. Um so these guys at work in these um these they investigate child exploitation or child abuse material, mate, they they're going through this evidence looking at thousands of images um daily. That's your full-time job. And I don't care who you are, I think that would affect anyone that um is exposed to that sort of material. Um so I think uh there's there's um they're just disgusting human beings, these um you know these predators that are out there, and um yeah, I think they're just doing amazing work and um there should be more of it. And and yeah, it's we're gonna be probably a common theme in this podcast. There needs to be a little bit more support for the people that are doing it.

SPEAKER_02 8:47

100%, mate. 100%. I think uh if I was prime minister, I would allow war crimes from these child abuse officers to uh execute these people on site. That that's if I was prime minister, never probably oh maybe, maybe will happen, maybe, you know, may or far out. You know, we've we've gone off track here right at the start. But as I said, 21 years in the police, multiple things, which we'll talk about down the track. But before we do, mate, always want to get back to those younger, younger days, mate. You got a bit of flavour in you as well. So we'll definitely talk about that.

SPEAKER_03 9:20

Yeah, our people, mate.

SPEAKER_02 9:21

Yeah, mate. Uh run me, run me through growing up.

SPEAKER_03 9:24

Oh yeah, mate. So I grew up in uh Ballarat, 80s kid. Um so 1980s and and 90s grew up in in Ballarat. Um mum's uh from the Philippines. Uh dad was an Aussie. So my mum came out to Australia in the early 70s. She was a nurse from the Philippines. Um, they wanted skilled migrants, so um, you know, like most migrants, they want to come for a better life. Um she was fortunate, she'd been to uni, was quality as a nurse, came out here, and um, as luck would have it, my old mate uh my old man's uh mate broke his leg skiing, as the story goes, and uh was in the hospital uh you know getting his leg you know in a cast or whatever, and um my mum's working, and obviously dad's um done done his best work and put in a quote and um you know a few years later, um yeah, I got an older brother and yeah, that's how it all started.

SPEAKER_02 10:17

It's wild, you know, we talk about you know, we're going through a bit of an immigration crisis in Australia, as you know, coming from Melbourne, it's like South Sudan down there. It's the immigration back in the 70s and 80s, because my mum immigrated at the same time in the 70s, and she uh spent when she left school, she went to the police for like a year or something because in in Singapore there have to you have to go to police, fiery zambos, military, or you can go to uh uni. And she obviously immigrated here in the 70s as well, but it's just a different immigration style back then. It just felt like people, like you said, one of the keywords people moved here to not escape their their their countries but to find a better life. Now it just seems like we're letting everyone in and I don't think that's they're not coming here for a better life, they're just coming here just to destroy our way of living.

SPEAKER_03 11:13

Yeah, and I I reckon like um even my family, like some of those uh like my mum's brothers and sisters, they're some of the most fiercely Australian and patriotic people because they come here and they um so my mum was the first one I came across, and then all my aunties and uncles, like their um was there's teachers and sort of sort of those professional sort of roles, and they realize, you know, it's actually really good here, and everyone's come across, they've worked hard, and they assimilate, yeah. And everyone's everyone's going with the footy, uh, but they still hold on to their culture, and that's yeah, that's really important. And I'm not, you know, I'm always proud of who I am when I tell that to my kids, but um uh they're some of the most patriotic people you're gonna you're gonna find. Exactly. And it's it's a different, yeah, it's a different world, I reckon for sure.

SPEAKER_02 11:56

Yeah, different, different times, mate.

SPEAKER_03 11:58

But also it wasn't like um I don't reckon it was a picnic from a mum, like in the 1970s and 80s, you know, being an Asian person and you know, in country Victoria, fucking hell. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ballarate, yeah, yeah. Mate, some people, yeah. That's it wasn't a it wasn't a fucking picnic. No. So she's a tough woman.

SPEAKER_02 12:15

Yeah. Again, probably why it was a bit different back then. I think there was a bit more pressure and a lot less people, you know. When we talk about sorry, we're going off tracky, but immigration these days, they're moving like whole cultures and just putting them in one spot. So they're just maintaining, they're uprooting their culture from there and bringing it here, but they're staying with their own community. Back in the 70s, like my mum as well, she had to, you know, go into these areas by herself and work in areas by herself.

SPEAKER_03 12:45

Yeah, and I think as um my mum when she first came across the first years, um, she had to go work in the country as a nurse, and it's part of her, you know, fine, good. That's if that's the cost, most most people would be pre should be prepared to pay that.

SPEAKER_02 12:59

That's it, and obviously, Filipino culture too, love it and the food. Well, tell you what, yeah, mate. Love it. I like some of the food, yeah. It's not bad. I love it, I love that. I love Asian food. Shout out to the Asians out there.

SPEAKER_03 13:13

Our people, Maddie. Our people, mate.

SPEAKER_02 13:15

Mate, uh back to your story. So that's all happened. Your brother, your yourself come how old how old's your brother?

SPEAKER_03 13:21

Uh he's about 18 months old.

SPEAKER_02 13:23

Just the two years, is it? Yep. Two boys. Yep. And uh schooling, mate. How'd you like everyone else, just never applied yourself? Interested in sport and girls, and that's about it. Pretty much. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:35

Um, I was like one of those annoying guys. I would just um turn up and I'd just seem to be able to listen to the things that needed to be listened to. Yeah. And I'd go alright. And so I rever never really applied myself because I never else couldn't be it didn't unless it really interested me, I didn't really care. Yeah. Um yeah, but got through um high school, um, all right, did all the usual things, played a bit of footy, and wasn't very good at it. Um uh but I liked doing more, but did a bit of boxing and used to, you know. I'm I'm not like a team sport guy, always like sort of training by myself. But um no, I had a good group of mates growing up, and then um came a time we uh turned 80 and it was time to move up to Melbourne.

SPEAKER_02 14:16

And what what was the plans you so your whole family moved to Melbourne or was it just my parents split up when I was um I don't know, say 13 or 14. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:27

And it was look, it was reasonably amicable, and my parents sort of um sort of lived a street apart. Um we come sort of become went.

SPEAKER_02 14:32

It sounds like we're living the same fucking life because it's the exact same as me. Oh listen. Parents broke up similar time, but lived like literally a block away. Yeah, we were street apart. So it was great. You fight with your mum, yeah. You just go to dad's house.

SPEAKER_03 14:44

Yeah, same there you go.

SPEAKER_02 14:45

Ask dad for 20 bucks, and you go, ask mum for 20 bucks.

SPEAKER_03 14:48

That had its advantages, yeah. Um, yeah, so they split up. So uh my brother had already moved to Melbourne, my dad had gone up uh two years in it ahead. Um and then I finished um high school and um yeah, we were out of there as well. Well, the plan was always um for me anyway to join the police, but uh considering mum and dad had spent all this money on a private school, I sort of felt obligated I better go to uni. So I thought, oh fuck, what's the easiest course I can do? And I sort of like psychology, and and it became a bit of a common theme with my police career. But um, I went and did an arts degree in at uni in Melbourne with a psych major. So uh yeah, moved up to Abbotsford with um some dudes from Ballarat in a pretty ordinary share house and um yeah, went to uni for a few years.

SPEAKER_02 15:34

Yeah, and you talk about you wanting to join the police at at a young age. Where does that come in? Have you got family history? No, nothing. Where did that come from? Just watching cops. Um that was great back then, too. That was when cops was cops.

SPEAKER_03 15:48

That's when cops were real cops.

SPEAKER_02 15:49

Um bad boys, bad boys.

SPEAKER_03 15:51

Well, I reckon just even like cutting around Ballarat, um, you know, in the in the 80s and 90s, the police back then were really authoritative. And I don't know, I sort of just liked the fact that they were always outside, they're always doing, driving around, going somewhere, and they went didn't seem to be stuck too much behind desks. Little did they know, uh little did I know, but um just that lifestyle sort of appealed to me. And I always was very curious. Uh, for you'd see something on the news and he'd be like, fuck, what happened there? Always just wanted to know what the inside story was. So um, yeah, for no other reason than that, I wanted to join the cops. And my brother had already said he was gonna do it, and he'll love this to hear this, but no, like, yeah, he it was a little bit um it was handy for me so he could go first and see what it's like, so to speak.

SPEAKER_02 16:41

Yeah. It's wild how you wanted to join the cops because of the cops that you seen back then. I feel again, we grew up what 80s, 90s. Cops back then in a way they were feared, you know what I mean? Especially as a younger kid, because you knew they'd just fucking backhand you. Yeah, they will give you I got backhanded by a cop and then backhanded by my dad as well. And now I feel you know, cops are joining cops because they see that cop out there, they're like, Oh TikTok cops. He looks he she looks pretty. Like, look at her nails, and she's a cop. I'm gonna be a cop too.

SPEAKER_03 17:18

No, yeah. I don't know. There's a big there's a big element.

SPEAKER_02 17:21

I just see it just you look different now, cops, and uh you know the kids these days, look at the shit they give. I just saw a video down in Melbourne or Queensland that that um that higher patrol uh motorbike cop they're getting beat up by like six or seven kids. No, I didn't see that. Yeah, I'll I'll I'll find that video. Someone's got it. I'm like, because not just no one's got respect for the cops anymore.

SPEAKER_03 17:43

Like it's just I think I don't I don't know what I don't know. There's a lot there's lots of layers to it.

SPEAKER_02 17:47

Obviously, society change, etc. But still, it's gonna be a level of respect.

SPEAKER_03 17:52

I reckon like um one of the reasons I joined or what really um and this is relevant to what you were saying, is um we had some presentation. I was at school when you're like 17, getting first getting your license, whatever. And one of the local sergeants from the Ballarack Cop Shop came down and he he gave us a presentation on road safety, and he looked I couldn't even tell you the the contents of it, but I found it quite powerful and that he was talking about real people that in our community and the impact on him and the other and the other coppers that went there. And I was like, it was the first time I'd actually seen coppers as they're sort of like teachers and doctors, they're not they're not like real people, but then we actually said the human side of it was like fuck that's a really interesting job. Like I would I would want to be the first to see that. I just want to just want to know it's that yeah, just inquisitive about it. But it was really powerful. And I'm not sure if they're still putting coppers in the schools at that age, but you know, it certainly um yeah, certainly impacted me.

SPEAKER_02 18:46

Yeah, just the PowerPoint of just dead people everywhere. You drive over the speed limit, this is gonna happen to you. This will happen to you, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:52

Which is true, which can happen, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:54

Never worked on me, mate. Although I was just on donuts and didn't say I didn't do them either, but burnouts, typical, typical kid. But uh, yeah, right. So you obviously had that inkling to join the police, but I said you move to Melbourne, mate, and straight to university. Psychology, like again, like where there's like where where do you where like where I don't even know what a psychologist was when I was 17. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 19:21

Uh what I knew that it was like um 90% of the enrolments were were for females and only 10% of blokes, but a young red-blooded man that thought, oh well, there's some good odds there, I'll go to uni for a few years. But no, no, on a serious note. Like I I've always had interest in what makes people tick. Yeah. Um, and I'm a keen like observer of people. I think you can learn a lot. Um, and look, you know, I was like the worst uni student, Maddie. Like the contact hours went um weren't weren't onerous, but I uh I was barely there. I ended up getting a part-time job down at Port Melbourne unloading shipping containers.

SPEAKER_02 19:56

Oh, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03 19:57

And fucking Jesus Christ, that was hard work. But I did that, I reckon, for about a year or so. But then um the thing that I really enjoyed around that time, yeah, the uni was like I just did, just went through the motions, like high school, did enough to pass. But I uh got a job working in pubs and I loved it.

SPEAKER_02 20:14

Just bartender?

SPEAKER_03 20:15

Yep, just a bartender. I used to work at the uh Lord Newry in Brunswick Street. Shout out to Pete, Pete and Kerry who gave me a job there, paid cash back then, which was King. Um, yeah, mate, I had a great time mainly because I was just working in pubs, and um and looking back, um, I reckon that was probably the best training I could ever do to join the police. Just dealing with people, dealing with people um from all walks of life. Um and you get and we didn't have security there or anything, we didn't have pokies, wasn't that sort of pub. There was lots of locals, but a lot of traffic off Brunswick Street, and you know, as in Melbourne, people would know anyone, need all sorts in Brunswick Street. But you really you did have to just assess people as they came in. Um, you could be a rich guy, a poor guy, a drunk guy, drug-affected guy, the angry guy. Um, but just getting to know people. Um, and that was the best training for hitting the streets later on in life as a copper.

SPEAKER_02 21:12

Didn't get firebombed at all. Seems to be the common trend these days down in Melbourne.

SPEAKER_03 21:16

No, we didn't do too many firebombings back then in Melbourne. Um that's more of a recent thing.

SPEAKER_02 21:20

I'd actually uh another side side quest here. I'd just seen a senator or an MP down in Victoria at one of those venues down there, and they've got shipping containers in front of this because they're getting firebombed or drive-by's. I'm like, is this Australia or is this fucking South Sudan? Yeah. What's going on here?

SPEAKER_03 21:40

Mate, but even they're hitting multiples in one night, they're just you know, systematically hitting six, seven addresses in one night and those home invasions down there. Mate, they're the next level at the moment. It's non stop, just it's on the daily, just yeah, that's what I mean.

SPEAKER_02 21:54

Like Yeah, and I reckon like um We've got to bring back this, or we've got to bring in this castle rule. law bullshit from uh Texas where you you go inside a man's house, he's got the right to take your fucking head off.

SPEAKER_03 22:06

Yeah, well it's getting to that point, isn't it? Because people are sick of it. Every day people are just at their wits' end and um they've got private um sort of patrols now in in the city. I saw that yeah I saw that on uh on the news. And like it's really sad. It's a sad state of affairs that this is what we've got to and like and what we're talking about earlier was like the the home invasions are getting so rife people coming out saying I'll just leave your keys with or just let them have it and just let them go and I just thought fuck no. If this is where our society is um that we're just gonna roll over just just let them come in and in the hope that they don't then do anything worse like fuck that. Yeah no like you know I'm not I can't fight or I'm not I'm not that sort of guy at all but fucking the answer is not just to roll over.

SPEAKER_02 22:52

No.

SPEAKER_03 22:52

That's how we got to this place to begin with is is my view.

SPEAKER_02 22:56

100% by by far mate just rolling over that.

SPEAKER_03 22:59

Yeah and it's really it's just really sad because the coppers are just under resourced they're getting smashed um they're not getting really that back up in the courts.

SPEAKER_02 23:06

Yeah and it's um yeah it's it'd be pretty fucking demoralizing I'd reckon yeah yeah if you're out there listening you're a criminal you're gonna break into my house I'm gonna stab you in the face with a soldering iron yeah I will stab you in the face soldering iron yep solid what's what's the worst case scenario five six years in prison it's a fucking holiday these days they got TVs and three gym three times a day whatever feed three times fuck mate it's a holiday camp it's like mate fucking jack that's it mate far out just teasing me that's it's a good time really um where were we where were talking about prison going to prison I'll see you there uh yeah we're talking about uh the pub so you're in that pub scene and then obviously uh finishing your uni degree how long's uni how how long's that whole process well it's a three year degree and it took me four years to do it so that tells you what sort of student I was yeah um yeah so I did that for four years and I made I just had a lot of fun uh probably in that last year I sort of knuckled down a bit and um yeah just did a bit of training and um had it was a long process I think from memory I I was on the waiting list for fuck I think it was from go to was at least 18 months.

SPEAKER_03 24:21

For the cops? Yeah so while I was working in pubs and finishing my degree I'd put the app in and it just took a long time.

SPEAKER_02 24:30

Yeah so it takes what what's the reason for that?

SPEAKER_03 24:33

Was it just They just weren't recruiting. They'd had um a big recruiting drive in around 2001 ish when Steve Brax was in charge and they put a thousand blokes through and then so after that recruiting dried up. So there was a surplus of cops mate there was heaps how does that fucking happen yeah I don't know they can't like they talk about many moons ago this one's happened.

SPEAKER_02 24:54

Yeah it hasn't happened since then I think just again another side quest here why do you think it was like that why do you think there was such a surplus of police and it doesn't sound like it was just Victoria.

SPEAKER_03 25:04

New South Wales is the same there was a surplus of cops like there was that the the amount that we needed why isn't all like that now I think like the people's pattern of work has changed absolutely but back then it was still viewed as a job that you would join and you'd probably do it for 20 to 30 years and that was that was pretty pretty common so yeah I'm not sure why it's changed so much. Different breed of human well some would say technology obviously plays a lot yeah social media plays a lot on these younger kids these days are a bit you know a bit softer than but let's be real they they got a shitload in but I think it goes in cycles like there's a a real lack of police and I know the police association in Victoria are pushing at the moment to bring us back up but it goes in those cycles there's a big recruiting drive and then you know one or two cycles will go through and then crime will become an issue again and we get more numbers but I think at the at this rate at least in Victoria and I think it's pretty similar across most jurisdictions there was a for a long time there was more people leaving than were going in. So it's a multi-layered problem like it's like how they're recruiting who they're recruiting and also importantly what what are they doing to retain the more experienced guys?

SPEAKER_02 26:22

Nothing.

SPEAKER_03 26:23

Well exactly it doesn't make much sense does it no it definitely doesn't mate no uh yeah right so you you're gone through this 80 month period you finally get the word you got obviously do all your psychometric testing medical blah blah blah all that type of stuff do all the things um tick the boxes tick the boxes yeah I threw one in for New South Wales as well oh did you um just I thought oh fuck it I'm a single guy you know New South Wales is cool. Um so yeah went through that whole process you do your medical do a panel and then you've got I think you've got to go down and speak to um the local senior sergeant at the station um and he just gives you a quick it's like a one-on-one interview type thing is it yeah so a character test basically a character is a good the good bloke test um I got sent down to Coburg get the senior sergeant down there um uh but my brother's working there so it was Oh was it was a pretty easy yeah so get a going so get a then we talked about footy for a fair while um yeah he was a really good guy ended up going out the piss with him later uh later on after after I got in um so got went through that entire process and then I think it was like early 2003 got the got the got the got the letter and um yeah so pulled the New South Wales app and had had New South Wales come back to me I would have just would have just gone there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:44

But as it happened end up being Vic by yeah which is probably a good thing because New South Wales weren't getting paid at the academy whoever came up with that idea absolute clown genius there. They're paying people now which is good for now.

SPEAKER_03 27:58

It's nice to be paid for work.

SPEAKER_02 28:00

Well it's wild isn't it it's a radical as a professional job.

SPEAKER_03 28:03

Yeah radical idea uh yeah right so from there you get down to the academy uh your brother's already in the job so is he spewing a few you know yeah giving you the the upper edge I suppose yeah you sort of it's always good if you know someone who's done it recently you can trust obviously he's my brother but um yeah he gave me the heads up but there's not nothing really can prepare too much because it's back then it was just like a five month crash course in law and defensive tactics um but it's sort of like I I'm the sort of guy I like to know roughly what I'm I'm gonna be sort of uh be up for when when you arrive um yeah certainly arriving at the police um police academy after four years at uni and working in pubs yeah it was a it was a fucking gulf shock that's for sure yeah you're right and what do you mean like as in the discipline or just yeah because you're you're you know living in that pub life and we know for a fact that's a bit of a party life yeah finish your job get on the booze talk to girls pretty much yeah yeah and like doing an arts degree I mean Jesus Christ I wasn't I wasn't working too hard there either and that was that consists of a lot of uh a lot of pub visits so um when I first got there it struck me like there's got the prayground yeah there's no walking on the prayer ground there's no got your hands in your pocket none of this bullshit and I remember um everyone's in their suits you you you turn up and one of my squatties she went down to have a dart and she stood on the parade ground and um mate the the drilly back then I think he's passed away now is uh senior sergeant Pratel and there'd be thousands of coppers that know him to say he went berserk would be an understatement someone having a dart on the parade ground it was wild um so that was my first my brother hadn't told me about the parade ground so I was a bit like fuck what's going on here and I remember I remember the next morning um because back then no one was really being recruited I had my own room for the whole time and it was like 5 30 in the morning something ridiculous and um he started up a is it a bugle and he's right outside my window the flag's going up and I'm like fucking hell what what have I got myself into this guy with a trumpet outside my window and um some arts degree pub working uni student here I am so um yeah it was very much a culture shock for me mate um and what about uh throughout so throughout that training period anything you struggle with um look in a way I joke about going to union stuff but I I but having just done four years of tertiary study um when you're doing the revision for the test it wasn't too bad. Just gave you the leg up it gave me a bit of I wasn't fussed by it um and I was you know quite I really enjoyed going to the gym and like everything I sort of just found um because I was actually interested in it this time I could really absorb the information quite quickly and yeah I wasn't I sound like a dickhead but um I didn't find it too bad. It was it was good fun I enjoyed it I I enjoyed going to the gym every day um going for runs with my mates I really I found it really really good fun to be honest.

SPEAKER_02 31:12

Is there a placement period?

SPEAKER_03 31:14

No so you're just stuck in the academy that whole yeah so five months um that's it yeah right I can't remember if we no that's bullshit actually we did we did like a two or three day ride along it was pointless to be honest um yeah I went to Coburg again um so it was cool I think it's it was only like two or three days after I think he just cruised around with a boys gate at lunch and some of my service summons it's yeah it's it was a bit of a waste of time.

SPEAKER_02 31:43

In regard to trauma you know obviously we'll speak about trauma down the track because you're involved multiple scenarios where you've you know had to deal with dead people and car crashes and whatever anything during that period that you were exposed to you know again I think that a lot of guys I've had on the podcast especially the older 1990s guys you know working at morgues or you know on the job training and it's like dealing with dead people whatever I think uh as part of recruit training they took us down to um down there in Kavanaugh Street wherever it is you go see an autopsy um I see you did yeah yeah uh look that wasn't too bad you're buying a screen oh not a screen like a viewing room yeah that look yeah it's not pleasant but it's well it wasn't the worst but you saw that and I think they try to do a bit of um they desensitise you showing you crime scene videos or something like that. But um which they gotta do. Well you know what I you want to weed out those weaker people during that period rather than them getting to a station yeah dealing with something going oh this is not for me I'll can't like you've just wasted all this time and resources.

SPEAKER_03 32:47

Yeah I think it's also uh I don't think many people would dip out at that point but I think it's also getting the mind ready and you as a person your mindset say yeah we we go out the head out here and potentially deal with some shit. So you know you've got to get your right self in the right headspace and the right mindset to go and do that. Because I think it sort of really it really focuses you oh fuck you know things could get weird for me out there. So I found it to be quite helpful in a way. I'd never seen anything like that. Yeah. So I found it to be quite interesting.

SPEAKER_02 33:15

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 33:15

Alright so from the you do your five months at the academy finally get your posting march out of the academy how your parents they love like uh second son now in the cops um proud and not proud at the same time I'm sure your mum was typical Asian worried oh yeah fucking hell um both are extremely proud but um I think having two sons in the police um yeah it was was was cause for some stress I think my brother had um he'd um got into a fight or a wrestle or some idiot and um he'd been set on fire um yeah fucking hell and so that really sort of put the wind up mum because wait what yeah I don't know I think it was some sort of had some sort of domestic flavour to anyway but my brother his leg ended up being caught on for he got some of that he got a commendation or stuff for it but that really bothered her and then all of a sudden I've told her so it should yeah I'm joining up and uh both my parents are gone now but I remember um mum saying to me when um one of us was on night shift um like should we do a night shift with us for the first few years and yeah so there's that family cost as well. Yeah but both mate extremely proud as punch my dad yeah he was like tearing up he loved it yeah yeah brother's on fire bloody hell uh another cop story you know far out how many jobs you go to when someone's trying to set you on fire more than you think I reckon yeah first week in that station mate I was where did you get posted to well well initially they were going to send me to play on the trains at transit but I um managed to negotiate with one of my squaddies who'd got foots gray and it's like I'm calling my brother going oh fuck you know you're transit goes oh look you know see what you can get and I said hey I've got foot scray and he goes fuck he goes uh all right he goes uh he goes well he goes it's um yeah words to the effect like he has that's yeah well known that's one of the busiest stations going around like that's the deep end oh is it so I was like perfect that's what I'm here for I want to get the full experience and what's what sort of demographic are we talking is this very multicultural huge heroin problem at the time um sounds like Mayfield up here I don't I know you're giving a shit to Mayfield but I don't know Mayfield is that it sounds like Mayfield but there's low socioeconomic areas yeah that's Mayfield multicultural lots of drugs Mayfield yeah yeah all the got it yeah all the things but yeah a fucking great um you know learning um area for for young cop is it is single swimming because it's just busy yeah or you know and you know reflecting on my career or 20 something years later um yeah that was a fucking crazy time and it was a great place to land at Foot Scray well I guess it it kind of establishes the rest of your career.

SPEAKER_02 35:56

Because you you are like you said single swim. Literally you're put in the deep end and fuck figure it out.

SPEAKER_03 36:02

Yeah and like uh I remember getting there and the senior sergeants um you know and all senior sergeants talk up their own stations but they sort of said oh look you know policing doesn't really get much harder than this like you know then obviously areas like I'm sure the cop is down in Dandenong and Broadie and stuff. Yeah fuck you no worries. But for that area and that time in Melbourne yeah footsgray was um the best place for me and I wanted that full police experience and um yeah I was fucking about to get it.

SPEAKER_02 36:29

And just on that your first first arrest do you remember it?

SPEAKER_03 36:32

Yeah I do. Oh yeah yeah it was it was a shoplifter from Forgers and Footsgray for like four bucks. Oh was that the loss prevention guys would just call us down there and um yeah some old duck and she'd stolen whatever she'd stolen I was like fuck so yeah back to the station the um the audio tapes there's the station's creaky I got my little card I'm trying to read it was a fucking mess.

SPEAKER_02 36:58

But yeah no it wasn't exciting mate it was um yeah it was uh really it was a lot of work there and the the volume was incredible yeah and always uh when I get cops on we talk about the first time you know expose exposure to trauma you know like you said you've never really been exposed to anything like that before when's the first time you rocked up you know got the call whatever dead person car crash whatever oh look I think in an area like that um we were getting a lot of overdoses at that time um yeah your normal array of street crime and and that stuff and I to be honest Maddie I actually found all that was okay because um you wanted to join the police to get out there and chase guys and do shit and go to cool jobs.

SPEAKER_03 37:45

Um I reckon the first one that really uh the trauma I guess got to me was uh and all this is widely reported on at the time I went to a homicide um just in a suburban area um up between Foots Gray and Sunshine and a young girl had been stabbed to death by her dad and when I arrived um you know she wasn't deceased yet but um yeah it was a real intense scene where multiple people had been stabbed as I'd come around the corner in a car in a van with another young bloke and um I think the the wife and someone else had been stabbed and there was this young girl in this car. And we'd sort of cleared the people away had you know all 38s are wheel guns like there's a lot of languages being spoken there's people screaming um and I'm clearing these people away and then this girl with some pretty serious injuries and you know you know I knew the outcome probably wasn't going to be good. But you know we did our best with what we had at the time to to help her out and um look I won't say any further out of respect but um yeah so we were there for that and that's a pretty confronting thing to see uh when you're you know 22 or 23 years old or whatever it was. Um this is like your first year of policing yeah this was in the first year and I was just with another young bloke similar level of experience um how how young was this girl I think it was in her teens um fuck mate what's wrong with people it just happened the other like yesterday two days ago up here in Sydney that father killed wife and two sons like I didn't know that but yeah yeah mate literally two days ago did yeah it was Indian Indian guy yeah don't know but it's just it's a horrible thing going through people's fucking minds I don't get it yeah and looking at to be honest Maddie the at the time it was really confronting and um it probably wasn't until later in life when I had my own kids and you actually sometimes you think sometimes you have those thoughts about things that have happened and you think fuck how did we how did how can someone get to that point in being a father myself just kill yourself fucking leave everyone else out of it. Yeah it just doesn't make sense mate especially kids oh mate especially kids mate like just innocent beings you know just leave them alone yeah mate and it was um it's hard to really understand those people and um the thing I learned no not learnt but I did I just you know you try not to get into that headspace because it's really unhealthy space and um how do you do that though? Because you've done a degree in phycology yeah you know I mean like you're I think I think I I'd never try to put myself in that person's shoes unless like you know when you're if you're a negotiator in other contexts you know you don't have to because it's helpful. But that for those sorts of things Maddie I think it's a self-preservation thing I can't let myself go there and I yeah it's a trap for young players trying to rationalize a crazy act when we're normal people mate it doesn't work yeah you'll drive yourself fucking insane but um yeah that was a pretty that was the first really traumatic thing uh I experienced um pretty heavy in the first year on the job that's pretty yeah and you and it you learned a few a few hard lessons were learnt out of that in terms of you know um being having that mindset because we got called to the job and um I forget what even what was said on the radio and it was stabbing which you know it can be bad sometimes they're not but anyway but I remember looking back thinking I hadn't mentally prepared myself because we were just cruising around I think we had a Slurpee and you know we happened to be Johnny on the spot and you know you go from just cruising around with a slurpee and to that 120 seconds later this is what you got this is what you're dealing with and so I think it's a good lesson for me was to just keep yourself switched on because you know shit can shit goes down and you've got to have you be in the right mindset for it.

SPEAKER_02 41:50

I for that you know you're young as well 22 23 it's always it is a good age because you're very blase if you know what I mean. Like you're very oh fuck yeah whatever yeah it is what it is. You know again like in later life you look back and go yeah and in a way it's you know it protects you because you just say give a fuck you yeah you don't give a fuck like it's just that's your job you you in your mind you're just like yeah that is my job so it is what it is.

SPEAKER_03 42:20

And in a way though it's good um to see how you perform. Of course yeah um in those um moments and but yeah it but also though mentally it's pretty tough like I remember I um you know went down to the hospital and you know we had certain things we had to do down there and collect some exhibits and all the rest of it and I was standing out there for a while but um it makes you question it like you're pretty yeah obviously you're a cop you're a young bloke you're a cop you're not gonna sit there and you know you're upset clearly you've seen some pretty horrendous horrific things that day but you can't sort of show that and um different times too yeah it is yeah absolutely and I interestingly the thing that uh another hard lesson from that day I remember I was at the at the hospital and the nurse comes up now we're talking like 2004 or something like this so mobile phones weren't what they are today. Nurse comes up and goes hey Bo um there's a call your sergeant's on the phone I'm thinking fuck that's weird could have just called me on a I'm a Motorola razor flipper or something and you I get on the phone and um this blade goes oh it's a sergeant at uh sunshine uh who've I got here I'm like oh it's Bo goes oh mate we're just trying to work out what's going on down there um who've you got what are these people's names um well because there's a few people who'd been stabbed including the deceased and um said oh who is it again? He goes oh it's a sergeant down at Sunshine mate I just need to clear up and said well mate I'm from Footscray because that's our patch and I don't fucking know you and then beep just hung up with the media oh was it yeah and they tried it um down a triage about five minutes later McKenzie had it again yeah we got a trap Young players don't fall for that shit. Yeah. All right. So a couple of good lessons out of that day. But um yeah. Which way, mate. Yeah, it was a crazy place. Yeah. And um oh mate, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:11

It was so the first year or two, you're exposed to pretty much everything. Like again, that's pretty extreme. You know, murder, suicide. It was a suicide as well, or just murder?

SPEAKER_03 44:20

No, it was that was that was a murder.

SPEAKER_02 44:23

Yeah. So, you know, that was pretty, that's pretty well these days in Melbourne, it's a bit of fucking stabbings all the time now.

SPEAKER_03 44:31

But to be honest though, Maddie, like um, no, in that probably that first two years, I it was like another other couple of homicides, um, more vanilla flavoured, I guess. But people, you know, getting shot to death with um, you know, crossbows and um all these other things. But that's sort of part and parcel of the role. Um, and it's a pretty quick pace there and there. And um, yeah, you pretty much got exposed to all facets of policing uh at a really um early time in your career. And back then you had to go back like every six months and do this thing called retention, I think it was, or something, whatever it's called. And you got to do like a workbook. And after 12 months, bang, I go back there and I'd got did a hand-up brief for an Agberg or done some other shit. And the law instructor assessed it and she goes, This didn't happen. I'm like, what are you talking about? She goes, she saw a running sheet where I'd sprayed a couple of dudes, but then there was a pursuit and there's some other stuff. She goes, Oh fuck, this is all bullshit. Like you're just doing this taking tick off your thing for your quole. I was like, and mate, I was shattered. I was shattered. Um, but then my sergeant, I went back and reported and said, Oh mate, fuck, I reckon this is all bullshit. They're not going to sign off on it, and he's gone off. This old dude, he um called up cabin uh academy, and next thing, yeah, it all got signed off. So it was a great area, great area to learn. Fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 45:49

And that's wild, isn't it? Because then you got someone on that other side of policing that thinks it's a fairy tale out there and that these these things don't happen. Yeah. Because there's plenty of people out there like that that join the cops because they see it as a as a job, not a career.

SPEAKER_03 46:03

Yeah, I think that's that's a sad way to look at it. Like it is. Um I joined because I wanted to get the full experience and go out there and do police shit.

SPEAKER_01 46:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:12

And um yeah, I don't know. I I always sort of used to think most people were like me. Um they did a recruiting campaign of, you know, people running around with a dog squad and kicking indoors, and you know, mate, that's what I want to see.

SPEAKER_01 46:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:26

That's what I want to see in a recruiting campaign. Fuck, I'll join. Well, not these days, mate. No, not these days.

SPEAKER_02 46:32

Waving flags, colorful flags. First couple of years, so three years on the job down at Foot's Grey, and then you move into a special duties with like a plain clothes.

SPEAKER_03 46:43

Yeah, they call it um specials or just plain clothes units. So that's really a introduction to just low-level street crime, basically, probably.

SPEAKER_02 46:52

It's like a proactive type policing.

SPEAKER_03 46:54

Yeah, so that's who it's normally run by a detective who's um upgraded to sergeant, he's looking for promotion. So just learning um, you know, how to put affidavits together, what evidence you need to get, and just to get a drug job up off the ground. Um, so if you're butting detectives and investigators out there, um, yeah, that's it's sort of like a pipeline to being a detective. Um, because when you first start, you see all the street crime and all the drugs. So in Foots Gray, there was uh an area called the Nicholson Street Mall. I'm not sure if it's still rife, probably is. Um, but you get into the rhythm, like the early morning crew would come in, the trade is looking for heroin, then it dies off. Mid-morning, um, everyone comes in early street trade, everyone hand-to-hand heroin deals. Heroin was huge back then. So once you sort of work in that area, get a few drug pinches, all right, you go to special duties, then you start targeting those traffickers. Yep. Yeah. So it was a really um, yeah, it was a really cool um little little unit to go to, and yeah, it was attracting a fair bit of heat at around that time. Um, a couple of blokes who were in that unit had been arrested, and it all went pretty. It was reported on pretty heavily at the time. But um, yeah, so I sort of landed there first day, and um the boss said to me, Oh, you go, mate, you're in the fucking hot seat now. The last bloke just got locked up, and I was like, oh, oh, that's great.

SPEAKER_02 48:18

Uh, in regard to fashion sense, you know, I've spoken about this with with uh plain coat clothes cops, and we see we always see them out there, they're so identifiable. Yeah, because you just dress like a cop. Like don't just dress, I don't know. What what did you wear? What what what would you what would you wear?

SPEAKER_03 48:39

I would just wear whatever pretty much I would wear cruising around in my private life. Yeah, I would just wear that. That's that's the trick.

SPEAKER_02 48:47

Yeah, you just gotta do that. Billabong shirt, quicksilver shirt.

SPEAKER_03 48:53

And they've got the um the Asics. Oh, the Asics with the jeans.

SPEAKER_02 48:57

But they're doing it.

SPEAKER_03 48:59

They're using the big bat belt that I was seeing. They are, mate. Like, it's just it's fucking mate. You might as well just wear a uniform.

SPEAKER_02 49:04

That's it, you may as well. I thought the whole point of plain clothes is to blend in with society in a way. So did I, yeah, yeah, just wear what you normally wear weekends.

SPEAKER_03 49:15

To be honest, again, though, Maddie, like, I'm not yeah, I wouldn't be critical of the guys too much because um they need to be given the right training and equipment. Like, there's so many canoe, there's so millions of options out there, they've just got to be given them. Yeah, I get that. Um still, but it is ridiculous. Don't dress like a cop, no, don't look like a cop. You just say you can just you can just pick it up.

SPEAKER_02 49:34

Yeah, if if you're a 40-year-old male wearing a fucking bumbag, don't do it. Just don't stop. So Michael Jordan add, don't do it, get some help. Uh yeah, right, mate. So you're doing this plaincloth stuff for about a year, and then for yourself, where are you going? So you're what three, four years in the job now. Yeah. Where do you see your career going and what what are you thinking? Because obviously, again, you don't have to be just the GDs or this. There's so many different opportunities within the police. CIU, forensics, IT, whatever you're really into, you can move into and you know, obviously focus your direction into it. What were you thinking?

SPEAKER_03 50:20

Mate, I wanted to be a detective.

SPEAKER_02 50:23

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03 50:23

Yeah, that was the thing for me. Like, maybe I'll watch too many fucking cop shows. I don't know. Um but you got you got to see like even doing even some special duties and some temp temp duties as an investigator. When the detectives are working out who's done something, um, you know, they're using surveillance, they're using undercover, they're calling out SOG. And it's sort of like um they're orchestrating this whole this whole, you know, this whole circus, I guess, with one aim in mind, that's to catch someone doing something or to gather enough evidence um to stitch up someone who who thought they fucking got away with it. And I just find it, I've just found it really fascinating, mate. So I wanted to be uh yeah, detective and I like the drug work. I like the the scaldaggery of it all and all the shifty little fucks. Um that and yeah, the undercover sort of stuff you I was exposed to really interested me as well. So those sort of two things really set the tone of of I suppose the direction I wanted to go. But luckily we were blessed with really good bosses at Footscray, ex-crime squad guys, um, and strong uniform um um leaders there as well. But um yeah, they were really able to. If you worked hard, yeah, they fucking looked after you and it was cool.

SPEAKER_02 51:37

Yeah, and and just on that, obviously your career was shaped by the people that were teaching you or the role models.

SPEAKER_03 51:43

Absolutely. And at Foots Gray at the time, um uh when I first landed, there was two two dudes there. One's passed away now, um, and the other guy, and he was a uniformed guy through and through, and the other guy was ex-crime squads. Um, but between the two, they were really old school fucking cops. And when I first arrived, they I got I got the intro intro. And um, yeah, sorry, funny story, but um, I got the intro and I got down, sat down by the boss, and he was like, proper old school cop, what you expect? He's like, mate, you know, we work hard here, we'll play hard, and he goes, You see that stuff on your belt, I expect you to use it. And he goes, Yeah, if it's one in here, it's all in. I was like, fuck. Yeah, I was shitting myself. He's this old school copper, he looked looked angry, looked scary, looked at the desk and bashed me. But no, they back they backed up their members and well. Um yeah, a lot of good coppers come out of there. I'm not saying I'm one of them, but um yeah, a lot of good coppers come out of there just because they got backed up by the bosses and um yeah, they they were valued.

SPEAKER_02 52:43

That's it. You got the OC spray in your belt, fucking use it. It's there for a reason for you to use it. Yeah, there's a button on there, yeah, use it as a pistol, use it when you need it. Yeah, protect your mates, exactly, and do the job. Do the job, flog the grims.

SPEAKER_03 52:55

It's a radical concept, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:56

Fog the grims, flog them. Uh you might end up on a current affair one day. Uh, yeah, right, mate. Uh, from there you get a bit of a temp uh temp posting CIU.

SPEAKER_03 53:10

Yeah, so uh it's a bit of a reward for you know doing a bit of work, and you're obviously if you're in that pipeline or got sent over to Altana North. I was only a Connie, so yeah, it was a bit weird. Probably a bit in the hindsight, probably a bit early to go across there, but nonetheless, um, yeah, you see to go across there and you sort of team up with qualified detectives and you go out and start doing night shifts, uh processing scenes, um, and just that more day-to-day investigative stuff because drug work's very targeted and you're being proactive. This is more like, you know, there's a fucking burglar running around or um serious assault's been, you know, been reported here. So you go back through and you learn the process of gathering the evidence, putting a brief together, obviously after you've interviewed the suspect. So yeah, it was uh yeah, good experience.

SPEAKER_02 53:57

So when you started getting into that, that's where it gave you that that's where the fire in the belly started for the detective stuff.

SPEAKER_03 54:03

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 54:04

Because it's um donuts and coffee jobs.

SPEAKER_03 54:08

Coffee jobs. Yes, coffee tour of Melbourne, Armand Croissants.

SPEAKER_02 54:11

Um Where'd you buy your suits from?

SPEAKER_03 54:13

Lowe's. No, maybe.

SPEAKER_02 54:15

But if you're a club out there wearing a Lowe's fucking suit, don't just again, Michael Jordan, just don't do it. Get some help.

SPEAKER_03 54:21

I think the uh was it what was that? Um Sherpa and the Polacco the Polacco factory was getting hit pretty hard. Yeah, getting hit pretty hard out there for a while.

SPEAKER_02 54:32

Um yeah, how how long are you in that uh temporary ruffle?

SPEAKER_03 54:37

Oh fucking, I remember the best part of a year I was there. Oh, was it? That's pretty decent, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:41

Yeah, so it was pretty cool. Working on some cool stuff. Oh was it just was it drug stuff, was it?

SPEAKER_03 54:47

Narrative or murders. No, not really, it's just more mundane sort of stuff. Like because I was a temp boy, every shit job in the office was like, Yeah, here's the uh here's the office deception file, here you go, go under cut your teeth on. So you got loaded up with shit. But you know, that's that's um you gotta pay your dues.

SPEAKER_02 55:05

Yeah, and that's the way it is. Uh from there, you move into the regional response unit. What what what's what's this? What is a regional response unit?

SPEAKER_03 55:17

So back then, this is all in the same pipeline to being a detective. So I probably came back to uniform maybe for a month or two, maybe. Yep. Then told go to regional response unit. So they're called something else now, like I don't know, don't know what they're called. But anyway, um, you're basically proactively targeting essentially drug activity in the western suburbs of Melbourne, so you've got the entire western suburbs to play in. And a lot of it's um, you know, you get a report or something, or the sergeant will tell you we're looking at whatever. So you basically put onto um, you know, uh investigations and stuff through the intel process comes down from the bosses and they decide, and you work up drug jobs, but that's more when you're um starting to apply more sophisticated things like all your services like surveillance and you know, using all the things um to catch guys out. Um but the great part about it is um you got the entire western suburbs to play in, so uh often if there was a um problem with armed robberies or whatever, you'd be tasked to go there for three nights and see if you can just catch them doing it. Because you're all unmarked in you know, in plain clothes, in the billibong t-shirts. Uh yeah, so it's a really good um again, it's a it's that natural progression to getting your first detective spot. It's um yeah, it was a really cool job.

SPEAKER_02 56:36

Yeah, and during this time it was uh a bit of an incident at a railway station. Yeah. Um is this shit like given one of your first most serious incidents?

SPEAKER_03 56:48

Um that's yeah, probably, but this is probably the only incident where I well, the first time I experienced that auditory exclusion and um and I this is ones I sort of grappled with later on in life, maybe because it wasn't dealt with properly at the time. And um again, it's probably um it was a very public one, like it was reported on heavily, and there was like hundreds of people that saw this, but um just a good one just to highlight to the guys that you know whenever you leave the office, kit up, even if you're going out for five minutes. And if it like for me on that day, it wasn't my primary role to be responding to this. But as we saw and as we see a lot, whoever's Johnny on the spot, you're gonna be there. So make sure you're switched on and you're kitted up and ready to roll.

SPEAKER_02 57:32

So this John, what happened?

SPEAKER_03 57:35

Yeah, I'll get there. Um, I was at the office uh cruising around with my sergeant that day, and um, we're going out to look at some guy's house. There was some fucking drug investigation or some bullshit. Um, and I remember the senior sergeant goes to me, Hey Bo, you don't need to kit up, you're an investigator now. You know, we do our best work in the background. And I was like, but I was always a bit of a nerd, so I thought, no, fuck it. I went and got my third, we're still using the wheel gun back then, the 38. So I went and got it, and we're cruising out towards Sydenham. And again, I think we'd go and look at a guy's house, see if we find a regard or something. And over the radio, um, bang just started coming up. Oh, there's a shooting at the railway station down the road. And sometimes you think, mmm, you know, you hear you sort of start your head, your nose in that direction, could be a thing, but then all of a sudden, very quickly, it became apparent over there that fuck, this is a goer. There are multiple calls coming in, shots have been fired in this um railway station car park, um, two people. And so we stop. Um, and back then we had these oversized vests, you gotta get them out of the boot. And I remember jumping out of the car, boom, vest goes on. Um, Pup, the other guy is using the radio. I remember throwing his vest over the top, and we're out near um, I don't know, the main road into Syndam there. And some kid is stopped in the road right next to me. I'm putting my vest on, and he's giving me the thumbs up. I remember looking at him thinking, oh, thanks, mate. I think I'm starting to get a bit fucking nervous here. But um, yeah, we jump back in the car. Uh still multiple reports coming. Yeah, this is ongoing, and we're about 500 metres away. Um, which is sort of cool because um, yeah, this is when you join the cops for. This is a fucking goer. Um, so we cruise up, we're in an unmarked car, and as we approach the railway station, there is like fucking dozens of people, they're running, they're running out towards us. And you know, when you see people running away from something, or when people are scared, they'll look back at it to make just they just sort of orient it for themselves. So we're running in, we've got the 38s out, and um, we're running in and we're sort of following, we don't know where we're going, but there's people yelling and screaming. This is peak out on railway station, and eventually sort of I come around the sort of arse end of this van sort of thing in this car park. Um, he's right next to me. He's there the entire time. And as I come around the corner, I've sort of got it probably what I'd say is like a low-ready, and I've come around and there's a male and a female sort of grappling for control of a handgun. And they're sort of like um, it's like you know, when people are drunk and they can no one can get the upper hand. And and this is all recorded, and fucking dozens of people saw this, but um, so issuing the police commands on him and all the things, saying all the right things. And this dude sort of turned around and he's sort of like a bit stunned. There's a couple of guys in uh you know, your billibong t-shirts and stuff with a vest on, pointing guns at him. And um, luckily the lady, it was apparent she'd already been shot, but um, she she sort of dived under sort of near a car, and he was like, he was looking at us. Um, and I remember I was looking through my front sights a little bit, and I could see people like in the background, like this well, you got the the level of the cars and people's heads above it, and I've got the offender right in front of me. And he's still got hand, he's got a handgun, but he's pointing it right down next to his thigh. And so um I mean when I talk about auditory exclusion, I was definitely experiencing it right then. So I remember looking at some Young Bloke, and he was in my sight picture behind the guy, so I'm like, oh god, he's got a gun. I'm trying to line him up, but you know, you know, general duty's copper effectively. Um so eventually it was silent. I knew my offside was yelling. I could see his sort of mouth sort of moving off to my side. And I don't know how long it sort of happened. It would happen quite rapidly, but to me it felt like it happened. Slow slowly. Yeah. Um, he sort of turned the firearm on himself, sort of on his thigh, and he's walked it up. And I'm looking at this guy, I'm only like seven metres maybe from this dude, giving him all the commands and all the rest of it, and he's brought it up, so he definitely pointed at himself and um brushing the command saying all the right things, and I'm looking him directly in the eye, and that's when you know the pulls the trigger. And pretty much from the moment that trigger went off, bang, the volume got turned up to a hundred again. And it was like um yeah, that was a pretty yeah, it was a pretty intense, pretty intense job.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:25

So he pulled the trigger on his own head, blew his head off.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:28

Yeah. Fucking Jesus. Yeah, look fun of all those people too. Yeah, he looked me right in the eye when he did it.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:35

What type of pistol was it?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:37

I think it was um it was semi-auto, I can't remember the calibre. I um mate, I didn't really involve myself. Well, obviously I couldn't, but um any of those particular details, well, it's it got reported on heavily and mate, it's fucking hundreds of witnesses, but um yeah, never really got down into the details as to why and when and it was just a real um yeah, it was a really intense experience. And obviously then we went straight into rendering first aid to the victim and um did the basics for him, I guess. And um but he was yeah. Of course, yeah. Yeah. So um yeah, it was a pretty yeah, it wasn't optimal. But that again, but it comes down to um testing yourself, and it's like fucking fucking hell, here we go. So in a way, like what you join the cops for, and um doesn't make it less traumatic, I don't think, but as long as you've got that right mindset and um yeah, it's a pretty serious game sometimes, and it can and it can turn at any time. Just like that, just like that, you know? Go from someone telling me not to take a gun out to half an hour later, bang, this is what you've got, and you've got to deal with it.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:48

Yeah, fuck. I think yeah, if you're a cop, you should always have your gun on you. I think there's a lot of senior officers out there these days cruising around with no pistol. I'm like, tell you what, yeah. All it takes, look at uh old love Dan at Bondi.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:03

Oh, mate.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:05

I know she was in in buying a Gucci bag, but it's lucky she had a pistol on her, you know, because there's there is a lot of inspectors out there that don't wear pistols and I think you got rocks in your head.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:15

If you um head out in the road these days. Take it. That's it's your appointment. Take it. You might need it. Uh exactly right. Uh yeah, right, mate. Far out. That's uh pretty pretty heavy for the first couple of years on the job. Wow. But at least uh what about the woman? Did she survive? She did. Yeah, yeah. So what was it, like a domestic or something, was it?

SPEAKER_03 1:04:36

Ah mate, it's I I looked, I looked it up in the paper. It's um I'll have to have a look. Yeah, look it up. But um no, she had a like a through and through to her face, yeah. Yeah, so um yeah, I yeah, I didn't really follow up. Maybe she survived, that's for sure. Yeah. I had the inquest and stuff later on, but um, yeah, I never I never bothered to find out. That was always my strategy.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:56

Yep, yep. And I'm assuming that's like a critical incident.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:00

Yeah, yeah, I'd say so. Just don't know these days. Well back then though, mate, and I suppose it's probably worth h highlighting, but back then I suppose the welfare systems aren't they weren't very developed. Um, but essentially, mate, there was essentially no welfare for the dudes back then. And and I'm not angry about it. Um but I just hope they're doing a little bit better than getting an email 24 hours after. I always went to work the next day. There was not there was no obviously I got interviewed by um you know uh the professional standards dudes and homicide came out and all the whole rigmarole. But um yeah, I just hope they do a little bit better for guys these days. I'm sure actually probably not sure they do.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:38

But no, well I just hope that Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. But um All right, fuck. W when did you switch from the thirty eight to the clock?

SPEAKER_03 1:05:50

So we so we went from thirty eights to Smith and Weston forty cals.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:54

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:54

Oh fuck, I don't know. Hey, two thousand and ten or eleven, I'm guessing. I don't know. It was

SPEAKER_02 1:06:00

Oh, is it that late?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:01

Yeah, oh mate, yeah bad. Jesus Christ. Mate, the yeah, we're using we were rocking the 38s for the first years I was in the job.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:06

Yeah, right. Cool.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:08

I love 38s. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:09

No, fuck yeah. It's one of my favourite little calibers, I reckon. Great. Yeah. Uh yeah, right. Uh from there, mate, you continue on with your career. Anything else happened within that response unit?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:22

Oh no, mate. That was again like yeah, you're learning your trade from um detectives and investigators about how to how to get things up off the ground. It's primarily drugs. Um, but yeah, it's it's uh it's a proving grant for detectives, and that's and that's the pipeline if you want if you if you wanted to do it back then. Yep. Because back then I think you had to be a confirmed senior Connie, so that means five years in the job um uh with with a qual uh field investigators or something to apply for detectives, so that was the way to do it.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:50

So you apply for the detectives, you get accepted, and is it like a training scenario from there?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:57

I applied for I actually don't know if they have them anymore. Uh we used to be called the Imboner Armed Robbery Task Force. So I used to have them in I don't know, the geographical areas of Melbourne. So that was basically focused all on armed robberies. We had a huge problem with armed robberies back then, maybe we do now. Um yeah, so we yeah, that was my first detective's post was at an armed robbery unit. So we did all armed robberies and robberies that side of Melbourne, and it was relentless. Was it that busy? Oh, mate, it was horrendous. And look, but again, I had really good detective sergeants. Um both end up being quite high-ranking ones out now, but um they were hard taskmasters, that's for sure. Um, but if you put the work in and did the did your job, you had no problems. But yeah, it was fucking relentless.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:49

How successful, because I feel like these days there's tons of arm robberies, but they always get caught. They always get caught now.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:58

It's a double-edged sword, so we whinge about you know, cameras and all the rest of it, but it's pretty hard these days to do something about beating caught on a camera. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:06

And you know, in multiple locations, too. Yeah, so it's changed the game. Sign's ring camera or fucking street cameras, whatever.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:12

Yeah, but back then, like you know, fucking arm robbery on the side of the street, two o'clock in sunshine. Yeah. If you've got no forensics, CCT wasn't as plentiful. Um, you do your best, but yeah, I couldn't even remember what the cleanup rate would be, but it was a busy, it was a busy unit, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:27

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh and what are we talking? Armed? We're talking cold steel and firearms, a bit of everything. Whatever mate, everything, whatever constitutes armed.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:40

Yeah, so but yeah, mainly knives, because you know, you're still in um a high drug area, so there's lots of that fucking syringes and knives, and you know, you just your makeshift weapons, but occasionally we get a good series of um dudes running around with a shotgun doing servos or servos or pubs, yeah. Yeah, something like that. That'd be pretty cool. But then again, now as um now an actual detective, I've sort of more familiar with our process of applying for SOG and all the things to enable that job to go ahead. So that's yeah, it's that's where I suppose all that training comes into play. You know, when to pull the trigger on servers and how to get them.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:14

Yeah, right. Uh we had a there was an arm robbery here the other night, a couple of nights ago at uh the pub just at Stockton, and dude robbed it with uh a gel blaster. And you end up getting tackled down to the ground. Now he's gone to jail for six years.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:30

He's a criminal mastermind, mate.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:32

Don't you you don't use a gel blaster for young players? Now pokey's heist. Yeah. Uh yeah, right. From there, mate, you move into so this is where you start your detective career. You move into more detective stuff, and this is the way you're you're moving forward. And 2011 move into detective echo task force. Yeah. Motorcycle gangs. Yeah, motorcycle enthusiasts. Tons of anarchy.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:01

Um, yeah, that was really crazy. Motorcycle. Motorcycle enthusiasts, aren't they? Um no, it's okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:07

One percent that follow the law. So they're 1% because they don't follow the law, yeah, but they follow the law by getting their both bikes registered. Registered wearing helmets helmets with the fucking safety stickers still on them.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:19

No, mate. Just semantics, mate. Yeah. Anyway. Um so I yeah, had basically done my I think you had you got to do like two years, I think, in each position you get in Vic Pole before you're eligible to move. Yeah, fair enough. So I did that and um decided I'd move into the crime department. So that was where all the major squads were working. I wanted to go to a unit called the Clandestine Laboratory Squad because I like that drug sort of theme. Uh, but to do so, I had to get a position in there. And that was when it sort of just recently restarted the Echo Task Force. Uh I think uh the government decided we had a problem with biking gangs in Victoria again, because apparently we didn't for the 10 years leading up to it. So yeah, I went there for a stint. Um, yeah, that was sort of really interesting work. Um again, had some really good bosses in there, so really good leadership. Um, and that's when we started um intercepting like all the national runs and um you know, doing these vehicle checkpoint things. They were just sort of starting off. They're a whole different animal now, but um yeah, we'd go out and speak to the certain um club officials, I guess, and help facilitate that. And um, it was a really interesting glimpse into that to that to that world. And um, to be honest, mate, I didn't have any dramas, they were all quite respectful and cool, and yeah, it was uh yeah, just an interesting little time. A lot of busts, you're getting people for firearms and drugs and at that point, because I think it was at its infancy, there were a few investigations going. I couldn't remember back now, but um it was mainly managing those runs and getting an understanding and where all the uh the outlaw motorcycle gangs were located, what they were doing, because I think there'd been such a big gap for so long to re-establish an area that looks at it, you you've got to get the intel right and you've got to get it an understanding of where everything's at before you can actually effectively target people. So that was pretty much what we were doing, and I think I was basically just marking time um before I could head off to Clan Labs.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:25

Yeah, right. So you move into that uh clandestine laboratory squad. What what is this? Like explain this. What are you doing? Make drugs or selling drugs?

SPEAKER_03 1:12:37

Well, no, no, no. So I think up in New South Wales they call them chemical operations. So that's just basically um people in or individuals or groups or um consortiums um bring in all the raw materials um and the know-how and knowledge to start manufacturing gear um you know in Australia, um, in factories. And it's a really um uh specialized form of investigation in a way, because you've got to have an understanding of what chemicals are involved and then what processes are being used to effectively conduct drug investigation. And the reason I guess I liked them was if um you know, if there's a murder happens here, there's a body on the ground, there's a crime scene, and there's witnesses, and you know, and full respect to homicide guys, don't get me wrong, but I like more, hey, this guy here's a drug manufacturer, he's making gear hand over fist, find out the rest. I find that a really pure form of investigation because you've got nothing other than a bit of intel, a scrap of intel to say someone's doing something they shouldn't. Then you've got to work out what's the method, when and where they're doing it, um, when's the best time to strike, when's but the best time to roll them. And it's uh it's a fucking fascinating. It's a really fascinating area of investigation. And yeah, you work quite closely with um the forensic chemists, because they um, you know, they do all you know the testing and all the rest of it. But um there's only so much cop as we could know. You actually need experts in the field about chemicals and processes. So yeah, it's a really fascinating area area to work in.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:21

And they're showing you like the police are teaching you pretty much manufacturing.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:26

Yeah, you've got to have you got to have an understanding of it because um there's different ways that it happens. And if you go to do a raid on a drug lab and the the lab, I guess, presents in a certain way, um, it's probably less stable and more prone to to going bad. Yeah. So you've got to know what you've got to have that understanding, and also bring in enough safety equipment and experts like your chemists and you know, decontamination guys. So if something does go a bit fucking sideways on you, you've got the expert there to really help you out. But um yeah, it's it's a very niche area of investigation, but it's fucking cool. And you're doing a lot of raids, it's where I first yeah, probably got exposed to doing raids.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:07

And like you still a lot of shout outs to the one cop I know here in New South Wales that does uh part of that uh chemical uh unit or whatever they're called, Shifty. If you're out there, mate, shifty listening. And he's told me, you know, some of the stuff they do, and it's you know, there's a lot of well when you talk about clandestine stuff, it's a lot of plain clothes or wearing ghillie suits and doing recons on drug labs and not even rating them, just watching them for a week and then obviously like you said, doing the investigations on where that's going, who that's going to, and bank accounts and blah blah blah.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:38

So it's a pretty full-on mate, they're huge jobs, full-on unit, yeah. They're huge jobs, and you end up with fucking hundreds of exhibits and you know, even doing you know, the the fuck I guess some of the most sobering sort of follow-ups we've done in the job were you know, on drug labs that we rolled, and the amount of shit in there that could have hurt us. Like it was really What do you mean? Like I remember it was one day we did a a drug uh a lab somewhere. I can't even remember where it was. Uh it's not important, but um as the I was a cover man, and as as we've come up, and this is like the risks, like this is just a drug job, um, and nothing's really known other than that they're doing some bad things. So, but this is the risk, and again, this is another example why I'm not saying this to be Macho or anything, but it's like this is the stuff the cobber's dealing with. Uh, we rolled a drug lab, and I was cover man, and the guy he's put the door in, that was all cool, and I saw a guy running down the hallway. So fuck. So anyway, I'm with him. I've got a respirator on, I've got everything. And I go in there and he's knocked over um some glassware, which was going. So he's in the process of, and there's a shotgun in the in there right near the door. So it's all cool though. I cover him, it's all good. So now we've got a you know, an exposure issue. I suppose we've got shit in the air that is no good, and the people's alarms are going off because you know you carry certain equipment to for OHNS, it's not safe to be there anymore, so we gotta get the fuck out. A guy's been caught coming out one of the windows, and then it quickly comes out, he's dropped a he's dropped a handgun on the way out, and then they're like, fuck, you know, all right, everyone's safe, all cool, but we've got a lab that's sort of over on its ass. The atmosphere's no good anymore. And there's firearms, yeah. I've got a shotgun, I've got a handgun, and we're getting out, and the Sarge, like, I was only seeing you kind of he took control, he's a really cool guy. Um, he knows who he is. Um so that was all fine, but because we had to vent it to make the atmosphere safe for us to go in. It wasn't until the next day that we went back and did a bit of a search, and these guys can stay on ice because you know we're still processing the scene. And um, offsider, and he's and they're by yeah, they're they'll probably be hearing this, but they're well more experienced in this than me. But he goes, Oh, hey mate, what's this? And he has like a toilet roll, and there's a big cylinder thing hanging out of it, and it's got a threaded end, and it's got a it's got a fucking fuse.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:09

Pipe bomb.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:09

And I said, Fuck mate, it looks like a pipe bomb. And he goes, Oh, this one'll be the same thing. He goes, get the fuck out of here. So sure enough, a couple of pipe bombs, and so they get disrupted by the specialists later on, and that's cool. And during the interview, he's like, Yeah, fucking had they enough, they would say, I think they're the the feedback on I didn't do the interviews, but it was um yeah, they're gonna fucking throw them at us.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:31

Were they? Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:33

So that's the game you're playing, and it's pretty fucking sobering. Like, yeah, you know, you get a little bit blase about that sort of stuff, and it's fun while you're a young bloke, but you know, Jesus, it's um not mucking around. And the guys at Clan Labs, yeah, they've they're doing a lot of work, doing a lot of raids, and um yeah, it's uh really interesting area.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:51

And how like just for the listener, I suppose, and for for myself, how saturated is you know, that that Melbourne market with these drug labs, drug houses, like how often are you turning one over and finding them or uh look mate, I'm I'm pretty out of the look.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:08

I've I haven't worked there for many years. Well back then, back then mate, we'd probably roll one, we would do one lab a week minimum. One a week. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:16

What are these drug labs like? Are there some of them some of them good, some are fucking probably just shanty.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:22

Mate, from you know, from my experience only, and there's there's better better guys to speak to about than me, but I would say if you were taking recreational drugs and you think they're coming out of some uh Columbia, yeah, out of some high-level lab, maybe you got rocks in, yeah, they're shitholes, and the fillers they're putting in them could be anything. And you know, importantly, like um there's fentanyl kicking around. Yeah, you need like a a gr a grain of fentanyl, will do you? Kill you, yeah. So, mate, they're they're absolutely disgusting places. Um, and they will put anything and everything in it. So, yeah, if people are taking drugs thinking they came and sat in a Walter White lab and it's everything's beautiful, they're fucking kidnapped. Yeah, but it's um yeah, but they're yeah, they're they're doing their best to target that um people actually making it.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:09

Yeah, yeah. And obviously weed marijuana qu crops and stuff like that. No, they don't do any of that. They don't do any.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:16

So you just specifically drug people. Yeah, it's uh laboratories. Yeah. So they're basically lab lab work, and there's um yeah, it's a real niche area, and a lot of the guys that go to that area, they stay there long term. But um, yeah, I really enjoyed it. I relatively short time, like two or three years, something like that. But I really enjoyed it and I I really enjoyed just learning more about it's probably that first exposure, that tactical side, not really tactical, but doing lots of raids, and Clan Lab's doing pretty well. Uh, but I that really sort of um got the appetite going. But um, but again, it's when you're in that crime squad sort of area like Clan Lab, you see again it's it's ratcheting up your levels. All of a sudden the SOG coming out a bit more, using all the different services, um, and seeing that sort of more organized high-level crime, it's actually pretty I've always I've always had interest, and I yeah, I found it really interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:06

Yeah, I think it is interesting, especially like when you say one a week. That's pretty. I'd like to know like someone out there, I actually might reach out to Shifty and see what he says. But um, yeah, how many fucking these days? Because it seems like there's just more and more drugs out there.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:21

Yeah, I don't know. Is it easier now to import them? I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:24

Don't know.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:25

But there's obviously that there's still a market. The uh I don't think the clan lapse was going anywhere anytime soon. No, there's still plenty of work to do. So they're busy, yeah. Far out, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:33

But yeah, I guess at the end of the day, we know for a fact that these days, again, a lot more international drugs were coming in back in the day because it was a lot easier. Now that's obviously the technology with customs is a lot lot better. Yeah, still stuff gets through, but as you said, a lot of it now is just some Billy just whipping up in the backyard, mixing a bit of fucking chlorine, had a bit of whatever, mate. Fucking whatever, bit of MSG. A little fucking little bit of Himalayan salt in there.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:03

But you know, there's market for it. I think uh I was reading something the other day, and Australians like per capita, we're fucking mad for it. Yeah, everyone's the cocaine use, everything in Australia.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:12

Cocaine's massive here in Australia, yeah, and it's pricey. So I believe, yeah. Yeah, yeah. All right, mate. So, what are you thinking after this? You you do that drug uh stuff for what two, three years, then you get promoted. So now you're promoted to sergeant, big dog in it.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:31

Well, big sarge. I wanted to get promoted, but I was like, fuck it, I can't go wear a uniform and do all the paperwork. And the guy was probably listening to this, no, I fucking hate paperwork. So uh interestingly, I went to a bucks party with uh one of my squad mates, and uh one of the blokes there, he was he was he was off his off his head, and um turns out he was a senior sergeant at Cert. So I ended up talking shit with him, and he's like, Oh, actually, we're yeah, they were looking at some sort of uh clan lab capability. I said, Oh, really? Are you? And I said, Oh, I'm in the market for a cheap uh sergeant spot. So nah, no, seriously, they they were looking at getting a capability up off the ground and just the planets aligned for me. And um, I went and had a chat with one of the bosses there, um, his next SOG bloke, and he was like, We're interested in getting this capability in its cert. What do you reckon? I said, Look, I'll throw in and just fucking see what happens. And um, so I had to start training because I like I kept myself, you know, pretty reasonable nick, but yeah, to do the cert course. So I started training fucking flat out and then um asked to go do some temps, uh, which again upgraded. So I done upgrading like as an acting sergeant at Clan Labs, but um, I had to get some sort of uniform experience because I didn't have much. So they sent me out to um Moorle Bark, which is a outer eastern suburban station. So I did six weeks' temps out there, mate. I was trying to train the train the house down and pat out the resume and uh pulled my calf while I was out there, which wasn't great because I had a cert course coming up, but um no, they were really good to me out there, mate. And uh six weeks later got the job.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:16

Yeah, so I was how long was the cert course?

SPEAKER_03 1:24:19

So back then for sergeants, like it was a weird process. I actually got the spot and I got had to go through a whole process to keep it. Um but then I arrived at the unit and then I had to wait a month while they selected the uh the course members, I guess. Uh, and then we went on the course together. So I think it's I'm not sure if it's different now. I think it is, but um yeah, the pressure is certainly on because you've already been selected, so you've got to fucking pass. Yeah. Uh and there's only been a handful of occasions, I think, where people haven't passed it. So you've really got to fucking pass. Yeah, no pressure.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:54

And just just for the listener, what is cert? C-I-R-T. Yeah. So it's not cert in Queensland.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:01

No, not C R T. No, no. Um, so the critical incident response team sits between the special operations group, which is the police tactical group for Victoria.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:12

Shane Donaldson, the beekeeper.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:15

The real deal himself.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:16

The real deal.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:17

Um yeah, so the SOG uh are more highly trained and better equipped, and they're the PTG for Victoria, so they'll respond to those sort of more high-end counter-terror terrorism jobs. And Cert, where they come into it, is um yeah, they fill that gap. Maybe it's SOG. If it's a SOG job, CERT will hold it until SOG arrive. Um, but often, yeah, the the criteria for Cert is essentially just armed people, and they can just bring more resources, better training to bear on a critical incident and control it. So that's a bigger unit. Yeah, be turning up in team tactics, um, and just bring more resources.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:55

But obviously qualified to this, not not to the standard of SOG, SOG, SOG SOG, uh, but M4s and the the cooler, cooler utilities.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:05

Yeah, absolutely, mate. I think we were talking at breakfast. Like um, when I joined, if you said, Oh, who is the unit cruising around in bearcats with M4 platforms, shotguns, tasers, fucking all the things, balaclavas, helmets, you know, you'd say, well, Sogar the only unit doing that. But fast forward, mate. Um, cert's probably been that animal probably for not to that same level, obviously. But yes, the cert capability, mate, they're a fucking yeah, a great unit. Yeah. And even from mate, I've been out of there for years, but their capability is mate, it's huge at the moment. Yeah. I was lucky enough before I um left the job to be the independent on one of their courses, and mate, fuck, I don't think I'd pass their course now. They're um they're going ahead in leaps and bounds. So they they fill that gap between the SOG and general duties, and um, they respond to anything and everything all day. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:59

Yeah. You know, I've been lucky enough to obviously head down to Melbourne a few times for work and potties, and I've met a you know a bunch of the cert guys, got a few few coins from the guys, and um, like we're saying at breakfast, mate, they're just they just look the goods, young, handsome dudes. They're just jacked and they just train all day long and yeah, and yeah, you know, they just cruise around and do the job, but they just look capable. That's what I love about they just look fucking capable.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:26

Yeah, mate, they're running a really cool um program there, like the whole selection. It's it's really fair as well. And like I um sort of went to that uh division. Um I never set foot in there before, and I'm turning up as a fucking sergeant and never had and say SOG and Sir, they're all in the same office, yeah, effectively. Um, but yeah, sort of doing, yeah, I think they just the the key difference, I think, is they can just bring more resources to bear than the SOG, have a more specialized, more highly trained, but but they're both, mate. They're fucking they're all working in the same direction.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:58

It's men and women as well. Isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 1:28:00

It certainly is, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:01

Because Sogas predominantly just blokes in it.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:03

Yeah, I don't think they've ever heard of female. I don't, not to my knowledge, anyway. Yeah. It's sort of got um, yeah, it's yeah, certainly achievable. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:11

Yeah, because I did reach out to you a while back about some female that fucking was meant to I was meant to get her on the podcast and you turned out to be an absolute fucking just left you loser. If you're out there listening, you're a fucking I don't even remember your name. That's how fucking much I care about you.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:25

But I think I think it was a common theme in the feedback. Yeah, yeah. But you know, look, um, yeah, it's a it's a real it's a real fun you know. I gotta say, I reckon I had the best um I was there I was there for over four years, but I reckon yeah, it was probably the best time I had during my career was fucking at CERT. And I was a bit of a cert hater too.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:45

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:46

Oh yeah, fuck yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:48

Uh and let's talk about the cert career. So, you know, what are you doing?

SPEAKER_03 1:28:53

Well, what's the so the pipeline for me, I guess, was um so I got the job um and I had to go through like we had to go do a physical, like you back then it wasn't the actual there's a different test now, but back then it was like um I don't even I don't even know what it was. Might have 10 on the beep test, you do chin-ups, push-ups, and I can't even remember, but it wasn't that bad. Um, but you you did that, and then they selected the course and the next um sort of advertising round for the jobs, and then we're put on to assert intake. And I think there's probably um 10 or 12 dudes, I think, that we started with. Um essentially it's just a crash course on I think Burso covered on his potty as well, but um, on team tactics, um, you know, room clearances, and basically all the tools, it's a foundation course for all the tools that their crew sergeant will will utilise on ops. So, and and because of the nature of certain, it can be anything. It could be a siege, it could be an armed defender, it could be someone driving around, um, grabbing someone up off the street. Fuck, it could be anything. So the tactics are pretty are pretty broad. Um, and I think I think we started with I can't even remember, mate, but I think we finished with five or six, and we started with 12 of us. So how long is it? Back then, it was only a six-week course, maybe seven or six. I reckon six. But um I know it's well and true. I don't know what it is now, but it's fucking blown out. Yeah, yeah. And um the stuff they're covering now is yeah, much more advanced. Of course, yeah. Different times. But yeah, you can look up on Wikipedia, like the stuff they're using. Obviously, got a you know, 300 blackout, they're running the shotguns, there's Tasers, there's 40 mils, um, also they're driving around in bear cats, driving bear cats fun. Um, yeah, they're they're really well equipped and yeah, well trained. Well trained unit.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:59

So it's cool to and mate, fucking what do I know about guns? Like, yeah, I grew up in the country, shot a few rabbits, you know. But um, yeah, getting the 870 out for shotgun, getting back then we were using UMP 40 cals, old school.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:10

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:11

You love the UMP, yeah, big pistol. Yeah, and it's um a real crash course um in all the tactics, and I was the only sergeant on the course. So every time we'd you know, we'd get a scenario just thrown at us, right? Hey, we've got a siege or we've got fucking whatever, I'd have to deliver orders. So for me, um, I had to master all the tactics, um, obviously, and have that planning part down. Uh, but also I had to be in my view, I'm not an athletically gifted guy. I guess I had got to fucking chip away at it, got to chip away. Um, but I had to be at least as good as the guys on the tools. At the end of the day, I'm gonna lead them.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:49

Of course, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:50

Uh, and I got really good advice from one of the bosses there, Phil, and he sort of said, mate, you don't have to be better than them and everything, because they've just got to know you're at least as good as them. And yeah, so basically I had to uh wear many hats, but it was a fucking awesome course.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:04

And that's a six-week full-time course.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:06

Yep, yeah, yeah, it's long days, dedicated, yeah, dedicated course. Yeah, lots of shooting, lots of tactics, um, and even just mastering all your all your weapons. And you're never gonna shoot as good as you do then after you do a course.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:19

Um you're maintaining a lot once you've done that course, obviously. Range and I know the boys these days at the gym a lot during their shifts, which is great because that's what it should be.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:29

Yeah, the boys get a lot of training, they get dedicated training time.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:32

Get some gym time, get shooting time. Yeah, fuck yeah. That's what you need.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:36

I think um when I was there, um, I'm not sure what the schedule is now or anything like that. I'm pretty sure it'd be similar, but um, there's a dedicated week of training in every cycle, and every few weeks you would have a dedicated week to go back to the range.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:49

Yeah, fuck, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:50

And it was really important. So if there was new developments, they they had a whole new training wing. So, and like the SOG guys that obviously go off and do courses and stuff, and through that um knowledge transfer, they would distill it, obviously give it to CERT so that there's always new stuff coming in. So our training would deliver that every training cycle every few weeks. So if there's any updates or training on clearances or weapons, you have to go and do it and to get plenty of rounds down range and just practicing your room clearance, practicing taser, or if something had come up um, you know, in the last few jobs of debrief, then you'd work on it. It's a it's a real opportunity um to be better and to you know enhance the capability of the unit. So that's a real that's a one area they did really well.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:33

Yeah, yeah, I didn't I didn't realise that CERT were that extensive within training as well, you know, like a six, seven-week course. I'm sure it's more now, and I'm sure they're getting more training, etc. But I didn't realise they were to that standard. So it's quite up there.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:46

That's it. Even the guys that um I think I looked at back at my training course photo, someone sent it to me the other day. But I think uh our main instructor is an ex-SOG guy. We had a couple of cert guys, really experienced CPP, close personal protection dudes. One guy used to be two commando, um, and our other instructor, I can't remember what his background was. So you've got a really good mix of police. Um, they obviously take a little bit out of the military world, um, and obviously the SOG experience as well. So it was a really good blend of dudes to learn from and um yeah, just to get through that course, mate.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:20

Yeah. So once you're in the unit, then uh run me through a job, mate. Like, what's what's what's your deal?

SPEAKER_03 1:34:27

Um, so in that sort of uniform part of CERT that I was at for the first two years there, mate, it's anything, like honestly. And I think the for the for the viewers, I sorry the listeners, um, all the radio traffic across Victoria, you can scan for it or you become alerted to it. But you basically got you know you know dozen or so blokes, um, and it can be suicide interventions, uh, armed defenders, a pure negotiation job, say you know someone's jump off a fucking building or whatever. Um anyone who's armed, anyone who's armed and the general duties guys or the uniform or the detectives need a bit of help, yep. Call goes out, and and you're away. I mean, there's a bit of a criteria, and that's yeah, somewhat fluid, but I think as a team leader, you knew when you had to go. And if it was on the borderline, you'd call up and you know, maybe get authorization. But clear if it was clear to go, you just go.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:22

Yeah, so in reality, cert is somewhat of a proactive squad, but more of a responsive, kind of like SOG type thing. Whereas if it's some shitty little granny trying to fucking knock off four dollars from the dollar store, that's not for them.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:38

Yeah, yeah, no, they've got to be like, I think there are the capabilities at a point where you've actually it's gotta be a decent job.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:44

Like um which I'm sure they're busy now. Yeah, fucking hell. Buty. Yeah, and certainly like I think it's good though, like there's always a bit of tension between cert and sog, and like I was from outside of that division.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:56

So they should be.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:56

Yeah, mate, and I think it's it's probably healthy. Like um, having cert there probably keeps a sog probably more on their toes. Um and and vice versa. So uh cert guys always want to be better to be challenging the SOG. And I think in those sort of things, it's probably natural and it's probably not all that maybe sometimes it gets unhealthy if people, you know, take it too far. But fuck, mate, you look at the work they're doing, and I haven't been in that involved in that area for a long time, but um you sort of need it, you need that personality, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:24

Exactly right, mate, especially to be in such a unit like that, yeah. You know, and I I know a lot there's a lot of guys that leave, and I not leave cert, but use cert as a a stepping stone to get to SOC, you know, like this.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:36

Absolutely, and it's makes sense because um, you know, I'm obviously a biased towards cert because that's my experience.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:44

Of course, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:45

But you know, I think you got rocks in your head if you don't think the SOG um you call them SOG pussies. Yes, no, everyone knows Cert's better than SOG. No, I'm joking. But um, you would have to be crazy to think that the SOG guys aren't, you know, wanting to be better and stuff and protect what what they're doing. Of course, yeah. They're operating at a really high level, but that's what I mean. Like um Cert's chasing them, and you know, I think it's good. Yeah, it fucking keeps it and ultimately keeps community safer. So if they're all in competition and it's not and if it's not too unhealthy, well makes for a better officer.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:17

You know what I mean? Like there might be some SOG officer that's uh you know lacking a bit, and you know, his sergeant might be looking at some dude in a cert going, you know what, he looks fucking good. He might tell you all right, yeah, pick up your your socking Johnny boy.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:30

Yeah, but you know what, Matt, they're all working in the same office and in the same space. And um even when I was there, they came out and did and helped us with jobs. Um, so there's no it's like um it's like any cop. Um if another cop calls up and gets needs help, you're gonna put aside any different, you're just gonna go, aren't you?

SPEAKER_02 1:37:47

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:48

So fuck it. It's a lot of it's just shit, to be honest. Just childish.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:50

Any uh any cool jobs? Again, this is Melbourne, and you know, just just on that, you know, Melbourne, we're talking this is 2014-ish. You get into cert. Yep. Around Australia, a few things happen. Obviously, December 2014, Lynn Cafe kicks off. So that's a bit of a game changer here in New South Wales. But uh, in general, I'm sure Melbourne's copped its fair share, and we've seen it, Flinders Street and all these places getting more random stabbings and cars driving through crowds and stuff. Um have you seen the changes of Melbourne over the that last well you joined 2003, you get out of the say 2018 is obviously when you move into the witness protection stuff, but in that period you're you know, frontline policing. Yeah. So did you see the changes of the you know the social cohesion word of 2026?

SPEAKER_03 1:38:45

I reckon I did. Yeah. Um it's also I think it's multi-layered and it's not just one issue, but I think it's a number of them contributing to it. So even when I first started, like the level of um it's a bit of a respect thing, and and you don't join the police because you want people to respect you, fuck that. But you gotta earn that. But um to hit a policewoman or to start ramming police cars, even doing A-bergs, that would that were no pretty serious offences back then, and and they were treated as such. And gradually, you know, for multiple reasons over the next you know, 20 years I was in, it almost became the norm. Like if you know, to wake up and hear, oh, police cars are getting rammed and or it essentially people just go, Oh yeah, because it happens every day. Um, but certainly 20 years ago, mate, it wasn't a thing. I mean, if it did happen, it certainly did happen, but there were certain the consequences straight away.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:40

What why do you think?

SPEAKER_03 1:39:43

Well, I think a big part of it is um and whether it be the sentencing guidelines or the appetite for punishment's no longer there. And that's I think I reckon that's a government policy type thing of the people they put into the judiciary. I mean assuming the crimes act hasn't changed that much. Well you look at the maximum, the maximums haven't changed.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:01

Yeah, so doesn't that come down to obviously the the judicial or the judge?

SPEAKER_03 1:40:06

Yeah, it does. And or the sister, yeah. And it's like uh I'm a pretty simple guy. Yeah. But there's got to be a consequence. And if is if you don't um you know, punish certain things, it just emboldens people to do it again. They go, well fuck it. Well, why why will I change my behaviour um if nothing happens to me anyway? I mean, there was a a very topical case came up the other week in Melbourne. Um 109 charges just fucking thrown out because they're saying that uh in this particular case, anyway, that uh this person doesn't know right from wrong, but they're driving around town, knocking people off bikes, giving them, you know, bleeding on the brain, like 109 charges, man.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:48

Jesus. And the system said it's because he doesn't know from right from wrong. Yeah, we can learn that from fucking prison for the rest of your life.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:55

I only know what I read in the paper, but on face value, you think something's seriously wrong. Like that's not that doesn't align with community expectations, as they say, at all. 109 is 109 choices that person has made. And you're telling me they don't know what right from wrong is.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:10

Like, give me a break. And it's frustrating, and I feel sorry for the dudes.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:14

Um feel sorry for the general duties officer that's got to deal with this every single day.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:19

And he's also gonna go explain to the victim.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:20

Yeah, well, exactly right.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:21

Hey, by the way, you know, you've got a brain injury and you're in hospital, you've got to take time off work, but um, yeah, that person's out free as a bird. No, not even a conviction recorded. It's pretty wild. And I just read that in the paper and I was like, it's I try not to read the papers anymore, mate. It's it's demoralizing.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:39

Why have we gone like this? Why have we gotten that soft where we cannot punish bad behaviour, punish criminals?

SPEAKER_03 1:41:48

It's um, and if you say something these days, it's like, oh, you can't say that. Fuck you can actually. Yeah, I can. Because it's you know, I think there's a level of um people seem to be just fed up, and not just in Melbourne. People are fed up around Australia. Yeah. It's palpable, and everyone, the media's jumping on board next. I think they're picking up, you know, they're picking up what people are putting down finally.

unknown 1:42:09

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:42:10

It's taking a long time. Yeah, yeah.

unknown 1:42:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:13

Yeah, it's like you said earlier, you know, people were telling the other people to just roll over and just leave your keys at the front door so they could take it. Absolutely nothing.

SPEAKER_03 1:42:23

And that's and that's a um that's just a sign of the times, isn't it? Could you imagine saying that in the 1980s to any one of our dads, oh we'll just let them in and let them take your car?

SPEAKER_02 1:42:31

My dad would have flogged me and then flogged whoever comes out. And then flogged me again for saying it.

SPEAKER_03 1:42:37

Come out with a VB. That's it. And a wife beat them. Um yeah, it's just a sign of the times, and I I don't understand it.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:44

I don't I don't get it, mate. I just I I I don't get it. I don't get why these people are just you know, there's a dude that, you know, uh not long ago I saw on the news punched a a uh a security guard bouncer at a at a pub here in Sydney and he only got six years. Dude killed the dude. Killed him, killed him, dead. Fuck died on the spot. Fucking only got six years. Yeah, six years. Six years prison. Life's pretty cheap, isn't it? Tell you what, almost encourages me sometimes. Not that it is, but fuck if it ever if it didn't. That's rough, isn't it? For the victims' family. Mate, it is. That's that's the worst thing. Yeah, mate. Oh, sorry, your son's dead. Uh yeah, we the judge only gave him six years though, so yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:29

And look, you know, I think there's gotta be there's gotta be fairness in the system and the and the justice system has got to work, but it just doesn't feel like it is. No. And um maybe there's reasons for it, but uh, I think people now. I don't know. There is no reason for it. Well, I can't if there is one, I can't discern it. Yeah, it's really it's it's disappointing, and I um I just kept returning back to mate. Imagine the you know, the coppers out there charging these bikes. Yeah, and they just let them see you later. Do it all again. Just do it all again next Thursday.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:57

And I think it should be an eye for an eye. Wow. You kill someone, guess what?

SPEAKER_03 1:44:01

You're dead.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:01

You're dead.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:02

Well, in a lot of countries that's the case, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 1:44:04

Fuck mate, Singapore. And before they kill you, they're fucking cane you nine times.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:08

Yeah, they don't make it.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:09

Just to fucking say, fuck you. But how can you? But how nice is it? Yeah, exactly right. As safe as ours is mate. I was you know, I was only there not long ago and I was looking at the crime rates there, and I was talking to a few of my family members that are in the police over there and talking about the crime rates, and I'm like, oh, so what's murder rate like in like murder? What's what's that? You know what I mean? Like it's 0.01% per capita. That is fucking manic. Whereas Australia's like one well, yeah, one.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:41

People say, oh, zero tolerance doesn't work.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:43

It's like, well, I think I think it does. If it does, you want to smuggle drugs in here, guess what? We're gonna fucking hang you.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:49

Yeah, exactly. But then they don't make any bones about it. And so I find it a bit weird when people turn around and go, oh no, they've been caught. It's like, well, fuck.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:56

That's it, especially pedos. Nah, mate. If you're a pedo here in Australia, you should be executed on the spot. If I was prime minister, that's what it was. That's that's what's gonna happen. Fucking hell, you're not mucking around, is it? Yeah, well, I'm not, yeah. But yeah, again, probably why I'm not prime minister. Yeah, mate. Uh, all right. So, yeah, so four years insert, pretty eventful.

SPEAKER_03 1:45:21

Yeah, mate. It's um, and again, like coming from outside of that environment, you get a lot of opportunities to do stuff. Like they um put me onto the negotiators course, um, which was actually um really valuable, like learning how to speak to people, and it's sort of delivered um half by well, a lot by the psych unit. So they they're the experts in that area, um, and they give us the information about how people present and all the rest of it, and the other half's delivered by the negotiators, and they make they do a fucking amazing job. Um, I forget what the percentages are, but uh once the negotiators are involved in a job, I mean your chances of resolving that safely, they just they they they they skyrocket. Um and again, it's this is like um another very niche area I've been involved with. Um and I'm I'm certainly not saying I was the best at it, I certainly wasn't, but just to do the training and then go out to a few jobs where the negotiators um have been used, but also they um that you've had to do me, yeah. Uh I think I did I tell the boys I've got a hundred percent success rate. I did we did a cordon and call, people are gonna have a laugh about this. Um we did a cordon and call on a house for something. Yeah, he had a gun, that was the thing. And I can't even remember the flavour, whether it was a bike or what his story was. But anyway, I get him to leave the gun inside and he's gonna come out and all the rest of it. Everything's like, oh fuck, beautiful. I'm thinking to myself, fucking this is easy. Uh sure enough, he comes out, he's got a knife. The boy's like, you had one job, had one job, Bo. And he comes out with a fucking knife. It was all good. He put it down, it was fine. Well, there you go. You win.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:05

But um the gun out, so that's that's negotiable. That's the way I see it.

SPEAKER_03 1:47:12

She's not lucky you weren't talking to him. Um but uh no, my world is more like um, I think they gave me the negotiator portfolio for a little bit while I was there, then I took it off me. But um no, it's like as a team leader, it's almost your first thing. Like you've got to obviously get everyone there on target, which is fine. But it's very different to the military, I guess. Like I've never been in the army or anything, but we're there to save lives.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:35

And of course, yeah, preserve life, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:47:37

Yeah, and it's sort of like and a big thing for a lot of the guys I say who like people get in contact with us, like people who know us know I was I was excerpt and all the rest of it, and they say, Oh, you know, I want to go there because of this, that, and the other. And it's all about the action. Cool, get it, love it, it's good. But the thing I used to try and say to the boys, particularly those negotiators, you can never really get too blasé because that person there could just be having a really bad day. That could be me, that could be your brother or whatever. So you've really got to have the it may not be a bad person, you just might be fucking having a fucking bad day. So the negotiators do, yeah, an incredible job. And as a team leader, yeah, I was always keen to get them involved where they could engage with the target or the sorry, the the subject. Um, great, because I just knew my chances of getting out of this safely has just gone up. Um, but again, it's another one of those areas which is sort of unheralded, um, and they're always there at the jobs, but no one ever really talks about what they do. And obviously, I'd never say anything about methodology or anything like that, but they're really good humans. Yeah, and they don't give up, like they talk shit for hours.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:41

That's your job, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 1:48:42

Yeah, and if that's what it takes, I'd be good at it, I reckon. Yeah, mate, you could be because some guys you see, some of the I've talked you into this podcast. It's taking you three years, though, so your timelines are fucked. Hey, it worked. But some of the guys will sit back in the chair and they have their eyes shut and they'll just sit there and talk. Uh other guys will be pacing, look at the information I'm passing in. So it's very interesting to see how people um approach it.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:08

And just on that, like, let's just say I'm in a house, I've got a gun. This is hypothetical for the police out there listening. I've got seven hostages. Actually, I'm in a bank. I've just robbed a bank, I'm watching a movie.

SPEAKER_03 1:49:21

I was gonna say, is this a movie?

SPEAKER_02 1:49:23

I've just robbed a bank, I've got seven hostages, yep. I've got a a belt fed uh shotgun, as Chris Mins would call it.

SPEAKER_03 1:49:30

Yeah, of course, yeah, one of them.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:32

And I'm like, mate, I'm fucking, I'll let everyone go if you give me five million dollars, I want fucking 34 fucking pizzas, seven happy meals, and a Ferrari. Is it I need it in ten minutes?

SPEAKER_03 1:49:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:45

Well what's your what's your response to that?

SPEAKER_03 1:49:47

I don't feel very well. I'd be saying bring everyone in the world right here.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:55

But I suppose like Would you what what do you do for that person that's demanding that? Yeah, mate, yeah. Fuck, we've got sorry mate, we've only got nine fucking wine pizzas. Uh we've got one Supreme coming. We've got all the happy meals. We're working on the Ferrari right now.

SPEAKER_03 1:50:08

I think like is that what you do? I think it's a bit of a truism, Maddie. No one likes being lied to.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:13

Well, I'm not lying.

SPEAKER_03 1:50:14

No, I'm saying, like, if you uh, you know, you've got to be straight with people. There's no the thing is like um with negotiation.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:21

Mate, I can't get you the Ferrari, but I can definitely get you the fucking happy meals and pizza. Deal.

SPEAKER_03 1:50:26

Uh and get your Whopper Burger. Yeah. No picture.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:29

Five five million bit of a stretch, maybe 5k.

SPEAKER_03 1:50:32

If they accept a check from Victorian government, no, no one does, fair enough. Uh no, mate, you just be buy, you'd be just be straight with people. Like, and I'll say to the guys, you're not no one's splitting atoms out there. Man, if you you're straight with someone, tell them reality and what you can do for them. Um, then you're buying time if you've got five million hostages and there's bombs strapped everywhere, you're just hoping everyone comes to help you straight away.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:56

Yeah, yeah. But um So, what if you got like a terrorist in his house by himself and he's held himself hostage? Could you just go, mate, just shoot yourself? No one cares about you.

SPEAKER_03 1:51:05

I just go, oh mate.

SPEAKER_02 1:51:06

Yeah, just I'll see you later. Bro, just kill yourself. Just do it. Stop in a pussy. No one cares about you. Uh this is again, this is probably why I'm not a negotiator.

SPEAKER_03 1:51:19

You're taking us into a really weird place now. But um, mate, really cool course. Yeah. And and it gives you a lot of confidence to go in and talk people with shit. But I'm gonna say, man, I was never a great negotiator. Um, because I was a team leader, so I had to know how to do it, and I had to at least done it a few times, but realistically, the bigger part of that is like if there's a job on, I'm going out and debriefing like other people who may know stuff about it. And so being able to be a system, or if someone's not getting anywhere with someone, you're like a coach, you just gotta change that shit up. It's like when you're planning a job, like um, you know, who's going through the window? Won't be you. You'll be on the Ram every time. Yeah, I am the Ram. Yeah, it's just physics. Um, yeah, so you just gotta you know pick whatever's gonna work for the day. Yeah, yeah. But they're there, the negotiators do a fucking great job.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:09

And how like how often would you use a negotiator for a job?

SPEAKER_03 1:52:13

Oh, mate.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:14

Um 99% of the time. It's the first, isn't it? Kind of like the first step.

SPEAKER_03 1:52:18

Yeah, they pretty much just roll with the team. Uh because like any any job can really potentially turn into a siege. Um, and I think back then sieges were cert sort of go-to, but they were, weren't they?

SPEAKER_02 1:52:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:52:30

Yeah, they've got more uh a broader complement of what they can do now. Like um, but back then for a CG, your negotiators are invaluable.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:37

That's yeah, how did that work out for you, Desi? Not too well, did it?

SPEAKER_03 1:52:42

No, exactly. He zigged when he should have zagged, I think. But um what was I gonna say? The uh lost my train of thought, mate. Fucking you've throwing me out nuts. Talk of Desi. Fucking dirt bag. Oh mate, I think rest in hell. Yeah, fuck him.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:59

Yeah, yeah. No, and speaking of that, when was that? When when did that what happened? When was that? I don't know. Wasn't that long ago, was it? A year ago, two years ago.

SPEAKER_03 1:53:08

Nah, fucking. Was it a year ago?

SPEAKER_02 1:53:10

It was a year ago. This year was a yeah. It was less than a year ago, yeah. Last year, yeah. That was fucking wild, wasn't it? Oh mate. That was wild. Good on SOG though. They all got some rounds down range.

SPEAKER_03 1:53:19

Well, I read it in the paper and I was like, shit.

SPEAKER_02 1:53:21

Pretty wild that, yeah. Pretty wild that he was even out there, and obviously there was people protecting him. Yeah, that's the that's that's the concerning part, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:53:31

So he was on the run for how long? Five months? Yes, maybe longer.

SPEAKER_02 1:53:34

Two months, yeah, longer. Not as long as Malcolm Naden. Oh yeah, fucking up. Fuck, mate.

SPEAKER_03 1:53:39

Um it is disturbing, mate. There's other people out there that share those views, and um yeah, I think say justice works in mysterious ways.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:47

Yeah, all 556, all 300 blackout.

SPEAKER_03 1:53:51

Uh, but you know what, I suppose like I don't know anything about that job, but I guess it's like the um the dedication of the detectives and everyone up there. Fucking just keep at it.

SPEAKER_01 1:54:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:54:01

And um, yeah, that was a really weird one for me. And a lot of the the guys on my team, most of us are out now, but um, yeah, even as ex-police, mate. Fucking hell. That hits home. That hits real close home. Like I've got my missus and I got my brother and a lot of my close friends. Andrew, like you know, he's up the other half is three zeros, mate. Like he's up there in the fucking chopper doing shit. It's uh it's your brother's still in, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:54:24

Yeah. Oh shit, so he's been in for like 20 something years now.

SPEAKER_03 1:54:28

Yeah, he's old time, mate.

SPEAKER_02 1:54:29

Big dog in it, is he?

SPEAKER_03 1:54:30

Old time. Is he? Yeah, yeah, he's looking pretty old too. Yeah, shout out. He's just the uglier version of me. But uh, yeah, mate, it was a fucking weird feeling being out, and you felt so hope you felt guilty.

SPEAKER_02 1:54:41

And 'cause you can't you can't help.

SPEAKER_03 1:54:43

Yeah. And it's um yeah, it was really strange, and it was just such a good feeling when I found out they got him. And it's not it's not revenge or anything, but just it's nice to close the loop for that family. And even I didn't know any of the the the the two blakes, either of them that um passed away, but um it hits the bigger police family everywhere, and the messages we were getting, and you know, people at my gym who go who are in the cops, and you can just see how it affects everyone, yeah. And um, yeah, it was fucking horrible.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:18

Yeah, yeah, I'm just glad they didn't use the negotiator for that job. There you go. There's a time when they didn't need one.

SPEAKER_03 1:55:24

Yeah, fucking worked out well.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:26

But uh and obviously during this time, you know, during your policing career, you know, even while you're in cert, so you're in cert for four years, four or five years. Yep. During that time, there was a couple of those incidences in in Melbourne. Yeah. Flinders and that stabbing one, that was 17, 16 or 17.

SPEAKER_03 1:55:44

We rolled out to a couple, we did a couple of raids. Uh it was again reported on quite heavily in the media. Uh it's a couple of CT jobs that came came across, and that was real last minute, like be ready to roll in two hours. Yeah, right. Yep. And they were um, yeah, so that were a couple of real, real fucking intense days. Like nothing really uh happened in the end, but um, yeah, essentially it was a SOG, cert, everyone, everyone was mobilised. I think we were training and uh got a call. So hey, come up to the seeing sergeant's office um soon, as in now. And we were just told to um yeah, prepare for a couple of well, I I forget how many addresses, but um, yeah, location to be advised, get two teams ready to roll. Yeah. Um, but this is on and it's a CT job, so you're like fuck.

SPEAKER_02 1:56:34

And how again, just on this CT stuff, I'm sure you would have been uh in briefed non-stop, probably daily, you know, daily in brief. How often is this CT stuff occurring? Because we know for a fact during that period there was quite a large number of, you know, I had Matt Lambert on uh the podcast, and he spoke about uh getting stabbed by that uh oh yeah in Devon Hills.

SPEAKER_03 1:56:57

Yeah, in Denver from uh Sisto who got stabbed to death in Burke Street. Yeah, and there was another one that's what I mean trying to do. I'm not sure if that's the same one.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:10

Oh, there's a lot of shit going on at that time. Um and you're getting are you getting stood too? Are you on on the job or no?

SPEAKER_03 1:57:17

I think like back then, you remember those old terrorism alert levels? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um I think we get every day as part of my briefing, I would have to give it to the boys for whatever it is. But I think then we're patrolling more proactively. Um, I mean that comes down from higher up, I guess, like where the light where it's likely things might happen. So for the guys out there, even uniform, I guess, would be doing it. They're just patrolling their life. You've got to put in that footy terminal, you put yourself front and centre. Yeah. And everyone knows that that's what the police would be doing. Like you're not gonna go somewhere where nothing's gonna happen, are you? So yeah, that was pretty much a daily part of the break.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:51

Did you deal any with with any? You obviously you spoke about those two CT jobs, but did you deal any deal with any jobs? Like dealing with any terrorist?

SPEAKER_03 1:58:01

Well, the ones we rolled through, we end up rolling through a couple of addresses, and um, yeah, they all got scooped up um for their their part in it. Um it all went to court, and I can't even remember what they got. Oh, probably nothing. They're probably nothing. Look at Bondi. But they're pretty but again, it's like it's just one of those jobs you're at cert, you could be a training, and all of a sudden just uh I mean, re no notice raids is not something I ever like ever like to do, but unfortunately, sometimes if the situation calls for it, then then you fucking go do it. Like all cops would, like, there's no issue. Um but yeah, they're pretty pretty fucking intense days. Yeah, no doubt, mate. And the thing is with search jobs, like you could go to work. I mean, you know, the the critical instant response team is um yeah, they have their detractors and they copy bit of flack, but um I would say, you know, fuck for the volume of work they're doing, man. Like it's crazy. Like every single day they're deploying to jobs, 24-7. And uh they're sort of uh a little bit unheralded, but I won't wax on too much about them. People like, oh fuck, these cert guys, but um no, they do it, they do a fucking lot of work, yeah. And it was a bit there was a real busy time. These days, yeah. Yeah, because I think I forget how it worked out. So I did uh two years at search just on crew, on my crew, crew one. Um, I saw this crew four coin here, mate. Crew four, yeah. Everyone knows crew one's better, betting. Um so I did that, and then I went across to there's another unit with insert that just do more plan jobs, so more like uh cording calls or early morning raids and shit. So I was luckily enough, um, I got sent across there, and coincidentally, they'd sort of developed a clan lab capability at that same time. So I did, yeah, essentially two years out on the floor and then two years out um in this uh tar stops area. I'm I think it's called something different now, I'm not sure. But then that was two years non-stop of um yeah, just cording and calls, early morning raids, drug labs, um, taking people off the street. And I gotta say, that was probably the funnest two years I had to. Yeah, right. Mate was the best. Just because you were just constantly on the job. Yeah, I had um door kicking. Yeah, it was another another sergeant and I. Um, I'll say his name, his first name's Al. So it was Al and I had like a dozen dudes. Um, and obviously we'd get get our tasking for whatever raids we had to go and do, but essentially, yeah, we just every day was a planning or job. We go out and do recis, and then we just roll through two to three jobs a week and do that for a couple of years. It was fucking fun.

SPEAKER_01 2:00:37

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03 2:00:38

It was non-stop, like uh, and again, like we had um guys uh come and upskill us. Um, a couple of military dudes came to give us uh some extra uh training or their perspective on things. Um we had a SOG dude come across. I think he wanted some promotional um experience. So to come across there and just really refine that capability uh was great, mate. And we started rolling drug labs as well as part of um there was a block, yeah. I managed to get a clan lab capability up, and yeah, we're rolling drug lab drug labs with the boys.

SPEAKER_02 2:01:09

What do you roll around with? Uh back what's yeah, loadout, call of duty loadout.

SPEAKER_03 2:01:14

Uh back then we're still using UMPs, yeah. Uh and just 40 cals. But the thing with drug labs, you've got to be pretty careful. There's a lot of fucking chemicals around. Of course, yeah. Yeah, so you've got to be pretty considered, I guess, and how you go about doing that. But um, it's more like also OHNS, you gotta wear respirators, um, have guys backing you up with certain with all the decon equipment. Like people, you know, like to think about all the cool shit. There's a there's a whole OHNS safety bit behind it as well. It's not a yeah, it's not an overly uh safe activity, I wouldn't have thought.

SPEAKER_02 2:01:46

Yeah, yeah, but um especially in the heat of summer too, wearing all that kid.

SPEAKER_03 2:01:50

Oh mate, what fucking hell?

SPEAKER_02 2:01:52

I hated chem training with the army. Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_03 2:01:56

I think I remember we did um uh we did like two two raids back to back, and I had the respirator on and it was so fucking hot because you know you're on your fireproof crap, uh the helmet, everything, and I reckon the sweat was just under my bottom. By the time I geez, another five minutes, mate, I would be drowning in there.

unknown 2:02:16

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03 2:02:17

But uh no, those um we did some really cool jobs. Um like you know, people trying to run us over, um, people trying to get out of accordance. Um it was it was a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_02 2:02:31

Outside of that first time of you getting your 38 out, is there any other times where you've had to have your pistol out or rifle or whatever?

SPEAKER_03 2:02:42

Uh we did a drug uh we did a drug lab somewhere, uh I want to say Southeastern suburbs, I think. Um and it was pretty vanilla in the sense that yeah, they're cooking drugs and they're I can't even really remember, other than the fact there's a drug lab. And we were sort of made entry, so we're talking really early in the morning, and I forget how it happened, but I've sort of come up to a door and I felt that you know the the pressure someone said, I'm with you. So I've thought, okay, right, we're in. And as I've come around, I've pied it, and there was a dude, and he's just sat bolt up right in bed, and he's picked up like a cut-down 22. But he's pointing it sort of like at right angles. I'm coming, he can't see me yet, but he's pointing it because there was um some distractionary stuff going on. I don't think he realized he's just fucking woking up. He didn't work out what the fuck was going on. He's just heard all this screaming and noise and shit and sirens. And as I've come in, I'm trying to scream, I'm screaming gun, gun, gun, as per the training or whatever the fuck I'm saying. And my offside behind me couldn't hear me. So he's pushed me, he's pushed me in into the room, but he I had him covered. Like there was no, I actually felt okay about it. Um I had him covered. There's no way he could swing it. If he was gonna swing it around, I was just gonna I was gonna plug him. But luckily, offside had been pushed into the room, offside has come in and he's seen it because you're looking through your respirator and you're like, fucking hell, and it's torch light. Yeah, yeah. And then he's seen the gun and he he was um disarmed and um yeah, he was secured and it was all good. But fucking all the pre-attack indicators are there, I think.

SPEAKER_02 2:04:33

A lot of those criminals are just more worried about other criminals, yeah. And obviously, they know the police are gonna come eventually one day, they're not gonna get into a gunfight with the police because then they're gonna fucking lose. Yeah, but yeah, like I was saying, yeah, the crims probably think there's just another crim trying to knock them over. Yeah, and I think so they'd rather shoot another crim.

SPEAKER_03 2:04:49

Yeah, yeah. And I think that's like even going back to you know when I was talking about my time at Foot Square and that, it's something you always gotta worry about because it's a big step for anyone really to shoot a cops, really. Let's be honest, a big fucking step. And most crooks I would say don't want to do that.

SPEAKER_02 2:05:03

Exactly. Um, so that work out, Desi.

SPEAKER_03 2:05:07

But um, you've got to you've got to really be mindful of it because fucking, you know, they're they're getting worried about run through. Yeah, exactly. So, and and in that case, I'm glad to say it all worked out. All right, because I've listened to a few of your podcasts and as coppers, mate. We're not there to kill anyone. No, I'm fucking glad I've never had to. I come close a couple of times, like a few times, but I'm fucking very grateful that I haven't because I don't I've known a lot of dudes who have um had to do that, and I'd say on average it hasn't done good things for them. So yeah, very grateful I've never had to do that.

SPEAKER_02 2:05:41

Yeah. Mate, so your time at the Critical Incident Response Unit is up 2018, you move into witness protection.

SPEAKER_03 2:05:53

Yeah, it's um this is interesting. It is, and I suppose if I can take it, if I can, when I left uh CERT in 2018 is probably the start of when I realised I probably needed to do something about PTSD, but I probably didn't. And and the reason I bring up a few of these sort of examples and stuff is that um it's a bit of a tale, don't do what I did and ignore it. Um get on top of it.

SPEAKER_02 2:06:21

So this is 15 years on the job by that stage. Yeah, whatever we say. Yeah, 15, 16 years.

SPEAKER_03 2:06:26

Yeah, so I remember I briefed up.

SPEAKER_02 2:06:27

It's a lot of exposure to everything.

SPEAKER_03 2:06:29

Oh fuck, mate. That's this is lost. The world of policing. Yeah, this is just the job. And I I'm mate, I'm not I haven't had a very uh spectacular career or anything like that. But this is again what most coppers would go through, I would think. Um but I remember briefing up at search for my last one of the what turned out to be my last job, and I'd had a stomach and lining infection, I had an infection in my eye, my hair was falling out of my beard, so I kept it pretty shaved, like shaved. But what I noticed when I was having days off, fucking all these patches were just falling out everywhere. And I went to the doctor and they said, Fuck, what do you do? And I said, Oh, I'm just the police, and I'm a sergeant there, and they go, But what do you do? And I said, Oh, this is what I do. So I work here and we fucking do that. And they're like, Yeah, like your body is like telling you you need to stop. That's just stress. When your hair starts falling out, mate, and I was like, Oh, fuck, you know, and it's weird. And I said to I think I said to you last night or whatever it was, but you know, I've got a psychology degree, I've got a lot of experience and trained as a negotiator and all the rest of it, and I still couldn't see it in myself. And I was really starting to struggle, and that's when um luckily one of the bosses there at Cert, I said, Man, I need a break.

SPEAKER_02 2:07:38

So then I went across to witness protection and you know, um like the movies, just like the movies, like um Joe Dirt, you know, when you stab you in the face of the soldering yard.

SPEAKER_03 2:07:52

Nah, fuck that.

SPEAKER_02 2:07:52

You mean you're talking to me all wrong with that tone. You're on the wrong track there, mate. You ever seen changed names of the people seen the born identity? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:08:00

Basically that.

SPEAKER_02 2:08:00

Okay, so you're Jason Bourne.

SPEAKER_03 2:08:02

I don't want to say it, but yes. But um, look, initially that was a really good move for me and the family, like a young family at home, and um so I went across there. But witness protection's like one of those areas that unless you've worked there, you don't know. You can take your best guess at it, and I think everyone's got a guess. But um, and I think I said to you, and part of my reluctance to come and I thought I would never say or do anything that would fucking you know jeopardize the people. Uh, but all all I'll say is um I work with some great people there, and they're doing a unheralded job, but it's fucking critical. It's a critical one, and it is an absolute fucking pressure cooker. And um my hats go off to the guys that are still there juking it out, and um they're doing some really cool work, and that's pretty much as far as I can take it for that. Yeah, just quickly, what is a witness?

SPEAKER_02 2:08:57

Like, what are we talking? Is it like a Ben Roberts Smith witness? Or are we talking I don't know. Like well, are they you can you can just nod. Are they changing their names?

SPEAKER_03 2:09:09

They're a prosecution witness. Gotcha. And they're helping the crown, um, and for whatever reason, they need protection. They need protection. I mean, you can uh you don't need too much imagination to work out protection from whom and and why. They're gonna obviously be incredibly bad, and that's why um some of the protections around that information are what they are, and and even if they weren't, mate, I would never say anything. It's um they're doing some great work in there and it's necessary work, but um that's as far as I can take it. But it's um obviously very good for me um in terms of it just gave me another area um to bit have exposed to, like a highly specialized area, probably if I could say that. And now that I've sort of moved into the private industry, um, and I think I touched on it earlier that a lot of the skills you pick up in policing and the rest are are directly transferable across to the private sector. As long as you may you may not think they are, but they they they genuinely are.

SPEAKER_02 2:10:02

Yep. And how long were you at that uh unit for?

SPEAKER_03 2:10:05

So I discharged in 2024. 2024. Yeah, I had a bit of time off.

SPEAKER_02 2:10:10

So you're in that that that unit for that whole time.

SPEAKER_03 2:10:13

Yeah, I had some time off uh when I was realised probably my time with Vicpal was coming to an end. I had some time off and then I went back to work. And you know, Maddie, I realized uh as much as I loved my time in Vicpal, and you know, I've met some of the best people in Vicpal. I've met some of the fucking worst people, but um the majority of coppers there are just great people. But I realised for me that um yeah, it was time. Mental health was going into the toilet. Um you got kids at this stage, yeah. I met him like your wife. Yeah, when it so when did you meet your wife on the job? I met her in uh 2007.

SPEAKER_02 2:10:54

She's like, Oh, who's that bloke in that Billabong t-shirt?

SPEAKER_03 2:10:57

And his jorts.

SPEAKER_02 2:11:00

He's got some dance skills.

SPEAKER_03 2:11:02

This guy's a goat.

SPEAKER_02 2:11:04

Just been a peacock. Yeah, he's just arrogant.

SPEAKER_03 2:11:06

He's just arrogant fuck.

SPEAKER_02 2:11:07

Um you've got two kids, obviously, and um two or three kids, too. Two two kids, and they've been part of your, I guess, your career for the last, you know, since they've been alive, really.

SPEAKER_03 2:11:17

Oh, they have, mate. And um and I suppose like, and it's a bit of a theme like with the coffee and all the rest of it, but um, and we talk touch a little bit on stuff that she's doing at the start of the podcast. But um, yeah, mate, they um the like people who are still in the job, my hat goes off to them. And and for the listeners out there, and uh the human cost, I suppose, for me, particularly her doing that sort of work and and all her colleagues uh that are with her, um also the guys at the SOG, cert, all this all the different units that I've sort of um touched on, uh the human cost, I suppose, for the guys doing those jobs is that um you know the family pays the price. Like my missus, I think she's doing great, great fucking work out there. But sometimes if mum's Got to gear up and do a 22-hour shift to um, you know, do things to to help kids out. Well, the human cost is that you know our family sort of has to miss out on something. And we've all missed uh birthdays and Christmases and and all the rest of it. And that's and that's the price of of the job. And I suppose the second part I'd put to that as well is um uh there's there's a bit of a narrative out there about oh, you know, uh people have PTSD and this is the job not did to me and all this sort of stuff. But um, my view is I'm not a victim at all. You chose to do the job, I put my hand up to do this job, knowing these are the risks, and unfortunately, that's the human cost of doing this job. Yeah, and that's it. Um there's no That is exactly right, mate.

SPEAKER_02 2:12:47

You've got to take some responsibility on PTSD because you you put your hand up for it. Yeah, you did it. Yeah, it's the way you look forward and manage it and deal with it for the rest you know, it's gonna be with you for the rest of your life. Yeah, and like uh regardless.

SPEAKER_03 2:13:01

Yeah, if yeah, it in any workplace, whether it be the police or anywhere else or whatever industry you're in, if someone has done something fucking horrendous, well then they need to be held account. But also that there's a bit of agency in that. Like, you know, you put your hand up to do it, and this is the industry we're in.

SPEAKER_01 2:13:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:13:15

Um, but it doesn't mean that that's the end of the story, you know. And I think a lot of people, because we're institutionalized in a way, they think, oh, once I get out of the guts, what I'm gonna fucking do. You can do so much of that. There's a lot of hope out there for people uh once you leave because they uh they do a very good job of convincing you that you can't um and that you can't talk out about these things. And and that's sort of why, you know, we got into three zeros coffee. We just thought, fuck it, we'll put our money where our mouth is, and uh, we want to get that to a point where we can start you know giving people um hopefully one day a bit of that structure and purpose back that almost overnight just gets fucking flicked off. And yeah, I and I struggle with that as well. So I had um yeah, I'll say last 10 years was um you know, sergeant, the critical instant response team, then a tective sergeant and witness protection, and then um you flick the switch and you fold into owls.

SPEAKER_02 2:14:07

That's big it's big, isn't it? Yeah in 22, 21 years, yeah, and institutionalise into a a force. Yeah. And then yeah, like you said, you get out and you fold in blankets. And you left your kids to school and you left your own devices.

SPEAKER_03 2:14:24

Yeah. And um, and that's where I think like I don't know how it changes, Matt, but um, they've got to do a little bit better for the guys that have um and I look, I'm okay. Look, you know, it's not for me, but there's so many people with my peers and people reach out out to us at three zeros and they're not fucking going well, mate. And no one's sort of really talking about how they're getting looked after, and and they're probably not A, they're not getting the support they I believe they need in the job. And B, when you leave, it's like you look at Police Veterans Victoria, unfunded. The other the government there said, Oh yeah, no, no, we'll fund you. Next minute, no, we take that, that wasn't a core promise, I guess. So there's a whole organization set up to help PVV that to help police veterans, you know, fucking you know, earn your own money. And they're fine to do it, and they're doing a lot of fundraising, but then we've got politicians wasting 15 billion dollars on shit. Yeah, and we're not looking after the people that go to some of the jobs that I've talked about, like all the you know, the negotiators, the you know, the general duties guys, the highway patrol guys, doing all these things. No one gives a fuck about that. So we're at three zeros, and that's part of you know where'd that concept come up with the coffee? You and so me and Andrew, another dude, Josh, um, initially, we sort of just came up with it. And it's probably when I first stepped away from work and I really struggled out not having anything to do. Um and we sort of thought we sort of tried to start our own, we we started it and then we tried to align maybe with certain charities, and it's a very political landscape, which we've found out. And they were saying, Oh, well, if you need to do something with us, but we can't donate money to them because we don't have an agreement. I was like, the fuck are you people talking about? Now we will donate money to whoever we wanted to. So we thought we'll just do this off our own bat, we're not gonna corporately align with anyone. Um, and so that's what we did. And I've got to say, like uh every person we've talked to about three years, I called, you know, called you, uh, spoke to Semps. Um and Jason Semple. Yep. And the feedback we got has always been great. Uh, because in our community, I think everyone's sort of um really willing uh sort of to lend a hand. So we just thought we'll come up with something. The best convos you have. Sorry, to bring back to the question, while we thought of it is the best convos you have are generally around the mess room, talking shit with the boys, debriefing after a coffee. Well, we couldn't do beer, but um yeah, we thought having a fucking coffee with the boys, everyone can get behind that. And the emergency services doesn't run without coffee note, but then everyone knows that you can't get a good coffee on notch yet. So we thought, fuck it, we'll do it. And yeah, it's small examples like uh Fletch from the Guard Dogs in Queensland Grapplers, um Simon from the Queensland Firest Grappling Club, they start we're starting at roughly the same time, and they sort of messaged us and said, Oh, look, we need new rashies or fucking geese, whatever it was. And you want to put in some money? Like, yep, we'll just do it. And um, that's been our model. Um, you know, whether their department would would fund them or not, uh, you know, we will. We'll fucking, we're not beholden to anyone anymore. Uh, we raise money through the generosity of our customers, and we fucking, if it's good and it's positive and it's helping people in our community, fuck it, we're in.

SPEAKER_02 2:17:40

And that's why I got I got on board initially. You know, obviously that at that stage there was a bunch of coffee companies out there, but uh a lot were just doing it for our own, you know, which is you know, business, business is business. But you guys obviously portion of your sales were again going to some of these you know jujitsu clubs or whatever, just to support veteran or cop veteran yeah, mental health initiatives.

SPEAKER_03 2:18:02

We did uh like a tri-service wellness event with hot and cold, spa uh sauna therapy. I mean, anything and everything. Um, and it's just a really nice feeling um to give back. Yeah. Um, and I yeah, it's whether or not it be goes a bit more mainstream or not, but um mate, who knows? It could be time for zero limits fucking coffee.

SPEAKER_02 2:18:22

Nice, long and black.

SPEAKER_03 2:18:24

Oh yeah. Shorter but more girthy, I don't know. Like a big tall black men. But um, no, but that's yeah, I get how it came about. Yeah, and um it's been really good to see it sort of growing. Like, mate, for a couple of blokes with no business acumen, I mean fucking hell. Yeah, but I'm amazed we've got it got it this far. But um, we recognise that um we can we can use this platform to push the issues that are important to us, and um I get a bit passionate and I'll rant on about the welfare thing because um you know now I think I've been out for almost two years, I can see it a bit clearer because when you're in, you don't really see it. And when you're out and you see it how it affects people you care about, you know, it's fucking uh it's I think it's it's worthy pursuing. And I'll look at Andrew, like he's um my business partner, and this is um been in the job oh fucking 15 years, something like that, his ex-Choco, you call him. But he deployed to East Timor. Um, you know, plenty of life experience, and and even though we're an emergency services community, I think it's important to recognize that if I can put his hand up in a different context as well, through the military as well. Um, even though we're, as I said, an emergency services company, and with this a million military coffee companies out there, we stay in O-Lane. Yeah. But I just wanted to say that and acknowledge that um, you know, he's been a huge support for me, probably when I wasn't doing my best, um, through three zeros, he's really helped me out. And um uh I wouldn't be sitting here today without his support as a friend and also as a business colleague. So I just 100% wanted to say that out loud. Oh shit. So he fucking hears it.

SPEAKER_02 2:20:01

Yeah, I'll buy him a beer next time with Sam.

SPEAKER_03 2:20:03

Yeah, good dude.

SPEAKER_02 2:20:05

Yeah, mate. Uh no, awesome, mate. It's awesome. Yeah, I totally get it. You know, I do the same with my Zero Limits merch, you know. I regularly donate uh to causes, you know. Most recently I just supported um uh the Giants Rugby League, police rugby league team here in New South Wales every single year.

SPEAKER_01 2:20:22

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 2:20:22

And I just want to, you know, contribute my part to seeing them well, you know, first responders feel better. Yeah. And especially like the police footy. I love it because it's just a a good week away for these people to get away from the fucking rubbish and just go play footy and punch on on the footy field.

SPEAKER_03 2:20:39

Just have some fun.

SPEAKER_02 2:20:40

Have some fun and get and have a breather.

SPEAKER_03 2:20:42

You've got to get a life away from work.

SPEAKER_02 2:20:44

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:20:45

And to promote, it will promote pretty much fucking any activity that's that's not at work, um, particularly physical ones, because we know they're the things that um you know there's a place for medications and stuff, I guess. But um, I think my lived experience is it's better to go there, hit the fucking gym every day. Um, get those good endorphins going because they're the things ultimately long term will lead to success. Um, so we really try and preach that and support those causes. Um it's a really good, cool place to be into I think we're talking about the um I've left a full-time career. I'm dabbling a bit of coffee, we're doing some uh private security.

SPEAKER_01 2:21:22

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:21:23

So that's a real interesting world as well. And um certainly is. It's another area in which where our skills um are highly valuable. Of course, yeah. Um so it's really cool to see that and and to actually have something tangible, people recognising and valuing, you know, some of the shit that we've been doing for the last 20 years.

SPEAKER_01 2:21:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:21:42

So it's a really good place to be in. And um again, and I'll say it to you again, mate. Thanks for your help in in all this, and hopefully through your listeners as well. We want we want to grow this um so we can help more people. Yeah, cool. Um and do some fucking cool adventures for and for our community and do some cool shit. Yeah. Why the hell not?

SPEAKER_02 2:21:59

Yeah, 100%. Uh use the code zero limits.

SPEAKER_03 2:22:03

I should know this. I should know.

SPEAKER_02 2:22:05

I think I'll actually I've got to change the ad at the end of uh the podcast. It's due for a new one. Hang on, I'm just gonna have a quick look.

SPEAKER_03 2:22:15

Andrew will be fucking he'll be kicking me when I get home.

SPEAKER_02 2:22:18

I'm kicking myself, hang on.

SPEAKER_03 2:22:20

He'll come over to my joint and punch me in the head.

SPEAKER_02 2:22:22

It is uh three Z Limits. So three Z Z L capital I M I T S Limits in lower caps. That is it. Yeah, is that it? Just buy it. Yeah, just buy it. Hedge of three zeroscoffee, yep, dot com dot AU. Dot com dot AU or Instagram. Or Instagram. Jump on there, grab a bag. Um, yeah. Yeah, fucking nice and easy, mate. Lovely, lovely. I I like it. I I love the uh pourovers, they were just such an easy thing to carry in your backpack. I take them overseas when I travel in my front uh pouch of my uh OGO roller bag. There's it's always just full of coffee bags. Uh mate. Just use it because it's easy. You just gotta heat water up, put that little thing on there.

SPEAKER_03 2:23:09

Yeah, we're selling heaps of them. Like you can't get coffee on Arvos or night chips and they're shit if you do, or if you go hunting or you do anything like that, mate. Instant fucking morale booster. Yeah, 100%. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:23:22

All right, mate. Well, I guess we're in that final part of the podcast. Couple of final questions, mate. Here we go. Yeah, here we go. Final questions. Uh, actually, first little side question. You know, in the movies when you know the cops go raid a drug lab and they put their finger in it, they taste it, put it on their on their gums. Are you are you doing that?

SPEAKER_03 2:23:43

Can't say that I have. No.

SPEAKER_02 2:23:45

Um, I think where's that come from?

SPEAKER_03 2:23:46

Like, is it that's the like Don Johnson and his like fucking white white suit and boating shape and PI. 100%. Just I wouldn't be tasting anything that's a drug lab's object.

SPEAKER_02 2:23:58

Axel Foley did it and uh Beverly Hills cop. I mean you could. You could. A few cops have and got addicted to it and now in prison. I think they have. Actually, I did have a rec uh a cop reach out to me. Uh if you're out there listening, I know you probably are listening. He was a cop and then got arrested for drug, yeah, drug-related incidents. I think he was selling it or I don't know. He sent me an email. Wants to come on the once to come on. You from Big George? I'm not sure. Not sure. I've got to if you're out there listening, shoot me a message through Instagram because you send it through the website and he said it there, he goes, Oh, would you be interested? I'm like, oh fuck. We've got to get back to this, but it sounds interesting, yeah. It sounds very interesting because it's so easy to do, I suppose. If you get you get enticed by the I don't know, the money, I suppose, the money and power and greed, or you get addicted to drugs. Yeah. Uh anyway, back to the question, mate. Uh, first question what advice can you give to people just to keep on keeping on completing any goal they set their mind to and to crush it in life? And just a little uh additive on the end there, you know, you spend 21 years in the cops, like what advice can you give to someone that's just joined the police and to spend you know 20 years plus in the cops?

SPEAKER_03 2:25:13

Um for for for a young person sort of just joining the job, I'd say it's it's it's crucial that you you maintain those relationships outside of policing, and and that's through something I didn't do well enough. And I've sort of had to go back and try and reform and repair those relationships that I didn't really look after very well. And because end of the day, mate, once you join, you just you will be a police veteran at some point, so I don't think it's gonna last forever. And um, I thought I'd be in for a full 30, didn't didn't pan out that way. So you've got to have a full life outside of the job. A, because it's it's great when you leave, and then secondly, you can have a break. Um, so when you're going all these things and you're going to these crime scenes and you're driving past it on the way home, it's really important to be able to go somewhere, have a complete blowout, not talk cop shit. Cops always talk shop like it's horrendous, like it's really bad. You've got to give yourself room to get out of that. Um, and in terms of advice of how to keep on keeping, I mean, I don't know, I don't know if I'm the best person to be giving that advice, but I would say to the people who are struggling or um they're wondering at what point they're in their career, there's a challenge ahead or something like that. But I'd say that everyone's got it in you. Like um, I'm not an athletically gifted dude or anything like that. I really had to chip away at it. And it's achievable for anyone. You've just got to really want to do it. And don't let anyone tell you you can't. Fuck it. Just go and do it. You're as good as anyone else. So just go and do it. That's what I'd say to people. Have a crack.

SPEAKER_02 2:26:47

Yeah, have a crack, just do it. Yeah. Mate's ask the same question. What scares you most in life?

SPEAKER_03 2:26:54

Um probably I think it I think it's a pretty common one as a human, but anything bad happening to my kids, I th I think that'd be the thing that would fucking break me. Yeah. Um if everything anything was going to, that'd be it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:27:16

Yeah, no, that's another one. I could just got an email probably three or four days ago. This guy reaches out, spent, you know, he's coming on the podcast. Fucking 10 something years you grew up with drugs, alcohol, guns, in trouble with the police, just an absolute delinquent, turns his life around, joins the SES, not the SAS, SES, the State Emergency Service. And yeah, he was, you know, did that for 10 years, and I think we spoke about it offline. But you know, he he referenced in that email goes, you know, I've you know, I've lived my fear, which was losing one of my children, which he, you know, this his child he was coming back from a SES thing, saw the ambos fucking fly past him. He's like, you know, obviously waiting for his phone to go off because that's obviously mate, they must get an alert to say there's a car crash or whatever, and he's got to respond to it. And yeah, rocks upside his house, the ambos there, and fucking son's drowned. I'm like, holy shit. That's so funny. So stay tuned. That guy is coming on the podcast, and it's gonna be an absolute just just uh because he's fuck me. Like he it gutted me. When I read that, I was fucking I could just I was just shaken, just like fuck.

SPEAKER_03 2:28:32

That is every parent's worst novel.

SPEAKER_02 2:28:33

I'll tell you what. Fuck, fuck that.

SPEAKER_03 2:28:35

Yeah, uh horrible. Oh, what an awful situation.

SPEAKER_02 2:28:38

Horrible, but uh yeah, no, totally get it. Totally get uh third question, mate. Tell us something about you that people don't know. Guilty obsession. You like fucking decaf, don't you?

SPEAKER_03 2:28:49

Don't that's it?

SPEAKER_02 2:28:52

You're like, yeah, fuck yeah, coffee's fucking mad.

SPEAKER_03 2:28:55

Turns out you drink decaf. Have a turmeric chai. Um fuck. Oh guilt. So it was a guilty obsession.

SPEAKER_02 2:29:07

Yeah, something you know, for example, my latest uh I'm back into Pokemon cards again. Oh god, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:29:13

What have I got myself into here?

SPEAKER_02 2:29:14

Yeah, it's me. Wow, that's me. I mean, no, I've spent way too much money in the last couple of weeks. Me and my kids will go uh because my six-year-old and nine-year-old, they're fully into it now, like fully into it, and it's cost me an arm and leg. And there's a good shop down at uh Belmont's like proper card collecting shop, and I'm getting back into it. I'm fucking loving it.

SPEAKER_03 2:29:36

Oh fuck, man, this is gonna sound so fucking Pokemon. Who are you? I like um I probably don't do it enough anymore to say it's an obsession. I used to love, I still love dehunting, but I'm gonna say something I actually do a lot of is crosswords. Is it fucking weird? I'm a crossword weirdo. Yeah, I'm getting old, mate.

SPEAKER_02 2:29:57

You're the type of dude that sits on a plane and does the crosswords in those fucking quantas books.

SPEAKER_03 2:30:01

You look at the back and go, hey, hey, hey, who is who's done that? I buy my own. I love them, mate. I don't know what it is about them.

SPEAKER_02 2:30:08

I just get those full crossword books from the news agency.

SPEAKER_03 2:30:10

Mate, fucking get them.

SPEAKER_02 2:30:11

Do you get them? Love them.

SPEAKER_03 2:30:13

Love them.

SPEAKER_02 2:30:13

I'm just one of those fucking old, mate.

SPEAKER_03 2:30:15

You're retired. That that and deer hunting, I reckon. I just love it. Yeah, just the two things I can do. Yeah, I'm losing my guilty obsession as well. Yeah, I like going out by myself though. I like just being and then because I got kids and stuff, but um, and I've they want to be involved now, 100%. It's a good thing for them to be, but sometimes you just want to go out by yourself, yeah, and it's the thrill of the hunt, and it's hard. And once you get it all back, I don't know, just something about it I like. I find it like really rewarding.

SPEAKER_02 2:30:44

Yeah, you keep the meat, you harvest, yep.

SPEAKER_03 2:30:47

Mate, sausages, I do the skins, everything. Tell you what, a bit of jerky, everything, yeah. It's fun, good. I do like eating it, mate. It's the best.

SPEAKER_02 2:30:56

Uh, yeah, right. Uh movie TV show. What are you what are you watching? What's your favorite movie of all time? And your favourite, I guess, cop movie or TV show.

SPEAKER_03 2:31:10

Oh, mate. The it the best cop movie, I reckon, is Heat. Oh, classic. Best shootout. That's clear.

SPEAKER_02 2:31:18

It starts off with a bloody.

SPEAKER_03 2:31:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:31:20

That that is that is a classic.

SPEAKER_03 2:31:22

I mean, everyone thinks about the 80s, isn't it? 80s. No 90s, I reckon. People think, oh, you know, um robbery heist, that's what it's like. No, it's normally some drunken idiot with a fucking V B stubby smash someone overhead. You know what I mean? Like it's not um gel blaster, yeah, dickhead. It's not it's not shape charges and semi-trailers and shit. But yeah, mate, I love it. And the bad guys lose. That's the best part. Yeah. Um, so heat's got to be the all-time favourite. Um TV show. Oh fuck, mate. Whatever. Take your pick. TV show. Don't really have one, to be honest. Cops. Nah, to be honest. To be honest, I've moved away from a lot of the police stuff. I just can't be fucked anymore. I'd like because cops talk so much shop and stuff, and then yeah, I just can't be fucked with it anymore.

SPEAKER_02 2:32:08

I like the YouTube videos, the police ones from the US, because they just shoot everyone.

SPEAKER_03 2:32:13

The police, uh well, apparently um body ones over there uh they're saying they're racist now.

SPEAKER_02 2:32:19

Are they?

SPEAKER_03 2:32:20

Yeah. But I reckon they've been a good thing, but um now they're too far, isn't it? Yeah, it cuts both ways, isn't it? It catches you doing stupid shit. Fucking bad luck. That's it, yeah. But um, yeah, no, mate, they're just um I'm pretty boring guy. I'm not getting that old ish. Well, you're doing crosswords, bro. I fuck, I should have just said shooting, like shooting stuff, shooting stuff and drinking strong coffee. Yeah, I'm boring, mate. Sorry.

SPEAKER_02 2:32:43

Yeah, no, that's right, mate. Uh music. What's uh what are you listening to?

SPEAKER_03 2:32:49

Oh mate, I like a bit of everything. I like my old like I do love the old school Aussie stuff, like yeah, Jimmy Barnes and all that sort of bullshit. Uh I do like a bit of dance. Um my kids just criticize me for it constantly.

SPEAKER_02 2:33:04

Um when we when we talk dancers like Nick Skits from the 90s.

SPEAKER_03 2:33:08

Ministry of Sound and all that sort of bullshit. Um I like that old school stuff. Yeah, old school. Yeah. Fucking fuck off.

SPEAKER_02 2:33:14

Kids these days are like Ministry of Sound, what's that? What's uh is it like a fucking church song or something?

SPEAKER_03 2:33:18

Yeah, yeah. Fucking hell. But um, yeah, no, pretty much listen, and then we're just uh nothing too emo and sad. Like some people listen to stuff makes me want to slash up. It's got a bit of upbeat. Yeah, put a couple of bangers on, mate. It's good.

SPEAKER_02 2:33:32

A couple of Ministry of Sound. Yeah, that was that was that was good growing up. Yeah, Nick's kids, all the volumes. But Armin Van Buren all the classics mate.

SPEAKER_03 2:33:41

Give me a pinger. A couple of Mitsubishi's mate, you'll be right.

SPEAKER_02 2:33:45

A couple of Mitsubishi. Yeah, that's it. Far out, how are the days? Kids wouldn't know these days. Nah, wouldn't know what a Mitsubishi. When you say Mitsubishi, you're like, What's that? Isn't that car? No, mate. No, mate. That took me into the zone.

SPEAKER_03 2:34:01

You entered the third dimension, I think.

SPEAKER_02 2:34:04

Mate, uh right. Well, I guess, yeah, I guess that's it. But uh again, for whatever reason people want to reach out to you, just reach out to me and I'll or reach out to you through three zeros coffee.

SPEAKER_03 2:34:17

Three zeros. Um yeah, mate. But that again, um thanks for having me on, mate. And um the imposter syndrome's real.

SPEAKER_01 2:34:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:34:25

Considering the calibre of some of the dudes you've had on. I'm um yeah, grateful that you've had me on here, mate. And I hope I haven't bored the shit out of too many people.

SPEAKER_02 2:34:32

No. So uh mate, no. I I you know, fire, mate. This is fire. Oh, yeah, you really love it. That's why your phone's going. It is a work day today. Just leave me alone.

SPEAKER_03 2:34:43

Uh mate, you're the busiest man in Newcastle.

SPEAKER_02 2:34:46

Not really. I don't answer calls, too. There's people need to understand that.

SPEAKER_03 2:34:51

No, just don't never answer them. That's what I do.

SPEAKER_02 2:34:53

Don't answer it. And if it's not if it's important, actually, for the listener, for anyone out there, if you're calling, if it's the ATO, or in the all the police, just don't recall because I'm not gonna answer. Leave a message or text. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 2:35:08

Come on, mate. First world problems, matey. Fuck me, dad. Come on, mate.

SPEAKER_02 2:35:10

Yeah, or I live in a first world. I'm gonna live those first world problems, and I'll never live uncomfortable ever again.

SPEAKER_03 2:35:16

God bless you, mate.

SPEAKER_02 2:35:17

God, goddamn army. It's funny, like I've got to moisturize now and I've got to shower every night. You're a modern man, mate. Come on, mate.

SPEAKER_03 2:35:26

Yeah, modern man.

SPEAKER_02 2:35:27

Might get into the crosswords soon. Fuck you, mate. Uh I appreciate you. And uh, yeah, stay in contact. Let's have some coffee and well, actually, we'll go to the pub now. It's uh midday. What's time on your Amiga there? Is it Amiga? Yeah, it is. Oh, I saw that before. Good spot. Yeah, good. Yeah, mate. I know my watches. Uh yeah, it'd be rude not to. Let's do it. Let's go have a feed and uh yeah, all right.

SPEAKER_03 2:35:53

Bill, thanks for having me on, mate.

SPEAKER_02 2:35:54

No, appreciate it. Catch you.

SPEAKER_03 2:35:55

See you, mate.