Ep. 249 Dean Burgess 3RAR - 2nd Commando Regiment @deanburgess.au

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Com chick, com chick. Com chick, com chick, com's chick. 8-0, this is 2-2, Charlie. Refined mission over.

SPEAKER_03 0:09

Uh 2-2, this is 8-0. Sand grid over. 400 rounds five effects. Uh do you want uh Willie Pete or no? Is that a walk must? Is that a marking type in there? How about we turn the timer down on the loom and just punch out through the window?

SPEAKER_00 0:35

It's time for the Zero Limits Podcast, hosted by Australian veterans. Chatting with high-charging humans with hectic stories from around the world, we'll give you the motivation to take on whatever life throws at you in the kick to complete any goal you set your mind to. Let's go.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

Um I try to come back to you, Mama. Zero Lements Listeners. On today's uh Zero Elements Podcasts in a mobile studio here on the Gold Coast. Up here for a bit of a trip and thought I'd crack out some podcasts. Guest today, 10 years in the Australian Defense Force, a bit of time at the Mighty Third Battalion old faithful back in the day when we were paratroopers. From there moved into the Special Forces, well, more specifically, Second Commando Regiment just across the street. His name is Dean Burgist. You may have seen his content on Instagram, Facebook as of uh last uh few weeks, and he's starting to grow a bit of a following. A lot of the content, you know, putting the truth the truth out there. Dean, mate, what's what's happening? Here we are.

SPEAKER_04 1:52

Mate, it's been a long time coming. Uh we've been talking for many years, and you've been trying to uh trying to trick me into this for some time. So here we are. You've been trying to uh you've been trying to roll me up for some time.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

Yeah, you know, obviously you've got a story. We we met uh early late 2004-5-ish. Obviously, we served together in the Thurbatine, and more specifically our company is where all the new lids basically went from that period.

SPEAKER_03 2:22

And different time then.

SPEAKER_02 2:24

Yeah, different time. Different time, man.

SPEAKER_03 2:26

It was the uh I feel it was the last the last hard run for three before things changed there.

SPEAKER_01 2:35

It w it was different times because you look at three R was reeling off that 90s period, quite a very white period. Very white, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:44

A couple of um crown tattoos on some CSM's heads.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

They were also very strong like dudes. They were like they were men.

SPEAKER_03 2:53

My my memories of three uh and part of the reason why I chose or wanted to go there is just the the just the the aggressive nature of most of the blokes in the unit, I think because there's a an element of you gotta be a little bit cracked to want to get punched out the side of a hurt. Um, but yeah, mainly just the level of intense training that we had to withhold because if um if you couldn't pull yourself up on those risers, you you lost your spot. So heaves, heaves are a big daily thing, just aggressive dudes, just some real hard fuckers walking around that unit.

SPEAKER_01 3:27

Yeah, I think if anything gives me PTSD, it's down at Parachute Training School hanging in those risers with socks down your jocks.

SPEAKER_03 3:33

Well mate, I sort of used off in the blow. I used to go on stooge, I used to go on stooge every opportunity I got, even for other other companies. Like the word it gets put out, you know, you get stabbed at the end, like Trent Morris or someone say, I need uh I need a couple of volunteers. You can see into my crystal ball. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Look into my crystal ball. Private Burgess, you're going to Nara again.

SPEAKER_01 3:52

I'm looking into the future. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:54

And then just for listeners, just explain what stooging means. Yeah, right. So stooging is um you're parachute qualified, and you will go down to our HMAS Albatross where the parachute training school is. And for the new guys that are going down to get qualified, they need six to eight stooges, it's called, because you're obviously a moron for wanting to go down there. But what the stooges get to do is all the demonstrations for um aeroplane exit, entry, um, hanging up in the risers, and the methods that you need to um detangle yourself from a malfunction, or what to do if you have an unrecoverable mal and you need to pull your reserve and actions on cutaway and and lowering of packs and all the things that you all the all the fancy shit that you do in the air that the other light infantry losers don't do up in Townsville.

SPEAKER_01 4:44

Yeah, exactly, and obviously keeps you current within the the role of being a paratrooper. That's right, yeah. Which is always a positive.

SPEAKER_03 4:50

Mate, I got um I lost my parachute uh logbook, but mate, I um I did about from memory, it's written down here, but maybe 15 stooge and gigs, and every trip down there you do about six jumps. Yeah. So my parachute logbook is full. Full. Yeah. And um that was one of the little little things I was quite proud of, man. I um I used to just and I never got injured, never once, and I think maybe a couple hundred jumps. Because I used to jump obviously every time the company jumped and went stooging every other time I could. It was more just to get out of the barracks life, man. I fucking wanted to be jumping or I wanted to be doing it.

SPEAKER_01 5:28

Yeah, yeah. My my first but before I uh did my paracource, I did two water jumps.

SPEAKER_04 5:34

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 5:35

Yeah, I guess. I wasn't even qualified. I wasn't even qualified. How did they let how did they let you get out? Don't know, they ended up just it was just uh a random selection, like oh there's a water jump coming up, and you're doing and it was Trent Morris. He's like a he's looking into his crystal ball and he peeked me. He's like, You're doing your water jump next week. I'm like, Okay, interesting. I'll pack my bag. I've got no idea what I'm doing. I can't say no. But they I remember going up to where was that um up near the area mess where we had the uh that old Herc up there.

SPEAKER_02 6:04

Oh yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

That's where we did all the training for this water jump.

SPEAKER_04 6:07

Fire.

SPEAKER_03 6:07

Yeah, yeah. Um I remember that. It was just like an old so there was the old helicopter bodies, yeah, and then there was that old like bodgy three-hour hour version of an aircraft.

SPEAKER_04 6:17

Well, that's yeah, Ben Force swing and someone pushes you in the back.

SPEAKER_01 6:20

Ben force, Ben Force break. Yes, that's what that's what happened to me eventually. But uh, yeah, like I was speaking about, you know, your rise on uh social media now, you're starting to put out that content and you know, gain a bit of a following, and people now are gonna understand what your actual background is because you know a lot of guys knew your you know SF and you've made your way on uh onto news.com.au and a few other things, and they're like, Oh, he served with BRS. I'm like, Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:48

So I my uh I get like pins and needles, I get a little bit a little bit scared when they say his name and my name in the same sentence because not even from the same unit.

SPEAKER_03 7:00

And I've said this before on the record that like apart from a couple of high fives in the TK gym, I don't know the guy personally. Um but yeah, like I always get a bit scratchy when but I I understand the media, mate. That's how they they don't get it. But that's how they sell their product. They say Ben Robert Smith, and you know, because you're a veteran, they just put them together and you were there when he got his VC, weren't you?

SPEAKER_04 7:20

Yeah, bro. Oh, yeah. I was hiding behind the rock. I did halo D. They didn't see me, I missed the whole thing.

SPEAKER_01 7:28

But as I said, you know, uh I think one of the crazy things is that uh I've been on you a very long time and you had a very different, and I you know, there's gonna be a lot of guys listening that do know you and know that you had a different personality, and it's changed over the years. Like, I honestly, like, who would have thought you would you would have ended up on social media doing what you're doing with I guess the attitude that you had years ago.

SPEAKER_04 7:51

Yeah, what's interesting, mate. I haven't seen you for 20 years, and you and that's the first thing you sort of said to me was you've changed. I'm like, what are you talking about? Thank God.

SPEAKER_03 7:58

Fucking god, mate. I'm I'm a new I'm I'm a new recruit to that. I I'm not committing to it yet, but I'm definitely um open to the experience. A good friend of mine, the fly fisherman, uh he shout out. He's yeah, shout out. He's been very impactful in my life. Um, from the day that I met him, we'd been at three, and we were actually neighbours. And um I remember Scott Ryder used to come up after a wild night in the cross, and he'd have no money for um anything for the next till next payday, but he he'd kick the fly fisherman's door in, and the fly fisherman moss used to have this uh shoebox full of spare change. So um often I would hear the rattling of the shoebox um where he was he was getting this getting getting rinsed by rider. But um, yeah, so down the track, um the fly fisherman, he's an orthodox dude. Uh he sort of started talking to me about it, and I was inquisitive about it. And um, yeah, I've sort of gone down that path. And just um, like again, I'll I'll say that I'm I'm not I'm not religious, but I'm I'm I want to have an opinion and I I read the Bible every um every night or every couple of days, just a few passages, just because I want to have um I want to understand it more. And the and the world is so unsure these days, and I'm not saying it's my saving grace, but it's also um it's just something that I'm interested in. I'm 42 this year and I've never really given it much thought. I thought, man, I'm only gonna be alive one, so I may as well give it a read and see what it's all about.

SPEAKER_01 9:21

Yeah, right. Uh all right, mate. Uh before we crack on with your whole military career, let's get back to those younger days, mate, and understand where you come from, uh, you know, family, schooling, and obviously what led to you joining the defence force.

SPEAKER_03 9:36

Yeah, sure, man. So I uh I grew up in a a mountain village in the snowy mountains of New South Wales in the high country. Um, I do I grew up doing all the um the regular things we did up there, like used to go rodeoing and fishing, shooting, played a bit of footy in high school. Um, but yeah, I was always pretty active working with my grandparents, some old man, uh, my cousin that was in town. He we're from a timber town, so it's a lot of woodcarting and and that kind of game. Um, but yeah, obviously freezing cold up there in the snow line, the Alpine region, so I was very, very cold over winter, pretty isolated. Went to school in high school in Kuma. Um what else, mate? So like brothers and sisters? No, no brothers and sisters. So mum and only child. Only child, yeah. Only child. Grew up um my old man was a really violent bloke. Um, I'm gonna say what I'm gonna say about him now, but I'll circle back to it at the end. But guy was um extremely violent, dude, had a known reputation for it. Uh it was pretty hard on me and mum. Um, and yeah, I guess he sort of shaped me to be the guy that I was because uh well, he never used to come to footy games or whatever, and I I can't really knock him because he used to work, work his ass off. He'd work five, seven days a week, night till dark. Um, but yeah, obviously that didn't allow him to come to games and stuff, and not that uh not that I hang on to it anymore, but I was always never sort of good enough in his eyes for what I was doing. Uh so there was always that subconscious level within me that I would try and do the like I'd try and max out anything that I was doing to try and get a bit of that good on you, you know, well done boy, I'm proud of you, you know. Um, but yeah, he he was he was real hard on mum and I, uh which obviously led to me moving out probably when I was about 14. Oh shit. Yeah, it was early days, man. I think and I don't know, and I probably pissed my family off saying this, but I think I was a threat to him. Um guy was a bit of a narcissist, so when I came on the scene, it sort of took mum's attention away from him and it was on me. Uh so yeah, that's what I've come up with anyway. But I um like I said, I I'll come back to it later, but evidently I am who I am now because of him and the upbringing that I had. Um so yeah, and the and when I when I say I moved out when I was 14, I was fortunate enough that the guys that I was playing footy with in Kuma, good guys, and their mum was a um she was a nurse's secretary at one of the places in Kuma there, and she had a like I guess we could call it investment property, but the boys are on the footy team with. Shout out to the Kuma boys. Um, I moved into their spare room and we just cracked on going to school, and um, and because I had my because I could where I lived, I could get my license uh early. So I was able to get my driving license at 14 and nine months because we're so isolated, but um yeah, moved out to the boys' place and we just went to school as normal. We all had part-time jobs after school and um played footy on weekends.

SPEAKER_02 12:27

All right.

SPEAKER_03 12:28

So yeah. So I pretty dis I'm pretty predisposed to violence, mate, in the home. So so for me, for me, it's like this might answer a lot of questions for the guys that as you touched on before knew me.

SPEAKER_01 12:38

Exactly right, because just quickly we spoke about this on Nico's debrief about how a lot of guys have PTSD, but a lot of it derives from you know early childhood.

SPEAKER_03 12:47

Yeah, man, and I I'm a big believer in that. And I've listened to a podcast recently on um another channel, uh Copper, Shane O'Gorman, I think his name is Sean. Sean, sorry, I always get that wrong. Yeah, but uh mate, I I only listened to that last week and mate, I gleaned a lot of information out of that, especially about how he um handles his children. I'm a father of four. Uh and yeah, bro, just having a guy like him, full hard charger, 55-year-old, looks after himself really well. But one thing I learnt, and I'll talk about this later when I got divorced, um, was about you have to prioritize yourself in your life first, not in a not in a greedy sense way, but if if you can't manage your own, if you can't manage your own self, how can you manage anybody else to a full effect? You know, so for me, um yeah, the predisposition to violence um was sort of the norm, and that carried that carried throughout my whole life. Um it's only sort of later in life when my children started bouncing along that I um realized that there was no need for it anymore. Not that it was not that I was going out flogging hunts every weekend or anything anymore, but it was like yeah, the the army really taught me how to harness it and focus it into things that were worth it rather than just being a a mug.

SPEAKER_01 14:06

When when when you say the army, is it more specifically when you move into the SF role because you have you you got a bit more accountability? We know for a fact that three R harboured that energy and we projected that energy out onto the you know the streets of Holesworthy, the streets of Morbank, the streets of you know Sydney itself. Like we were wrecking balls.

SPEAKER_03 14:26

And Townsville when Peter Beauty came and banned us from Queensland. Wrecking balls. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I think three actually cultivated and um and re rewarded it because we I mean anyone that's uh knows the the history of paratroopers all the way back. If you if you you you are destined to be surrounded at some point and you need to be a fucking savage because if you're gonna drop in somewhere and be totally surrounded by the enemy, you know, it's live or live or die. And I think the uh ideology around uh airborne soldiers is is evident of that.

SPEAKER_01 15:03

And at that stage too, this is you know, this isn't not the 90s period where where it's a stagnant uh defense force. You know, we're in the early 2000s where there is deployments. Guys have been to Timor, Iraq has kicked off first sec debt for 2003. Um boys went over. Uh sport company, I'm pretty sure it was. And then obviously subsequent, you know, Afghan and more Iraq trips, more Timor. So it was just a cultivation of mentality, wasn't it? Like it was just airborne.

SPEAKER_03 15:32

Like we're parrot, what we are the we're we're the best infantry out there. Yeah, I mean, apart from obviously Purse lads and Foyer at the time, like we were the only capacity for airborne insertion, and we we really I feel we really fucking held on to that. Yeah. Because we're those guys. We chose this, you know. And if you didn't jump, you know yourself, if you got to the got to the door and you balked, you were pretty much looking for a new unit. Yeah. If you couldn't give a good reason or if you didn't jump the second time, it was like, right a man, you need to find a new job. Yeah. And I love that about three butt because it was all it was a qualifying, it was sort of a qualifying uh attribute. You know, if you if you weren't about it, you weren't you're out, you're gone. That's it. Yeah, you know, and something can be said for that because later on in you know the SF world and stuff like that, like guys that you know, I say this with um with caution, but guys that didn't want to get up and fight, or guys that were like um, you know, being found out to be cowards later on, but now they've got so much to say about certain certain people with certain profiles, you know, maybe they shouldn't have been in those roles to start with, just like you should have been found out at three for jumping out the door or not.

SPEAKER_01 16:38

Yeah, who knows? Yeah, I don't I don't remember anyone really balking at that. I did see it once, but it was on a continuation jump, but it was it was a uh it was like a fucking clerk or something.

SPEAKER_04 16:49

Yeah, because he just got the fucking quick slap on the head and the hands come down and it was fucking foot in the arts.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

It was the This is Sparta out the door.

SPEAKER_03 16:56

Yeah, 300 fucking gone. Yeah, but um slap down the slide and away you go.

SPEAKER_01 17:00

Yeah, 100% different different times, isn't it? Just absolutely different times, I reckon. Uh that that three R A Pit as you said. So, you know, you're you're obviously grown up uh, as I said, or as you said, within a with a household that was quite violent through your old man, you obviously move out at 14, quite young. Yeah. No idea, you know, like you think you like the for the for the 14-year-olds listening out there, you've got no idea. No. Life, life changes, definitely changes. And did your old man stay in your life at that stage?

SPEAKER_03 17:29

Yeah, man. So what happened was it was sort of like I I went and um I periodically went home because where I actually moved to was only about 40, 50ks from my home. Um, but I seldom went home after that. Uh I had a little bit of um, I guess you would call it sort of um juvenile understanding of the situation where I was always questioning, like, mum, you know, you why couldn't you leave? You could have left, it could be different. But I also understand that she had, I would consider Stockholm syndrome. But um, to be fair, and I won't go into too much deep detail, but anytime there was an attempt to leave, there was always a very quick return purely because of the threat level was so high that um if you didn't, it it could have gone, you know, to a more modern-day classification of what DV is what we know about DVs today, you know, without saying it, yeah. It could have been that multiple times. Yeah. So for me it was clear-cut that I was probably the causation of it. Um, I mean, they're probably going back now, I hit probably a lot of psyches. Maybe if they listen to this, they're thinking that poor kid, he didn't understand and he's blaming himself for that shit. Probably, but I don't now. Um, and it's been a journey of sort of um internal understanding about he probably wasn't equipped or ready to have a child in the first place, which is why mum never chose to have more children, just because she didn't want any further shit like this. Um, but yeah, evidently for me, growing as a as a man myself, he was flawed, we're all flawed, nobody's perfect. That doesn't condone what he did. However, on the flip side of that, his fathering techniques with me and how he treated me has made me I think I'm a pretty decent dad. Like I'm I'm always attentive, I'm never absent, I'll I'll prioritize my kids over pretty much anybody else. Yeah, and you know, that probably makes me a little bit hard to live with now. But I mean, ultimately I am who I am in spite of who he was, and it's made me a better human. So it's it's an interesting sort of conundrum where if I had had that little perfect life and grown up with brothers and sisters and didn't have any kind of that, you know, would my life be different? Probably wouldn't have been in the military, probably wouldn't have done a lot of things. Um, so it's it's left and right, you know. Like it's yeah, it was shit at the time, but I'm better for it now.

SPEAKER_01 19:50

100%, especially now. Yeah, you know, you you live and learn. And it's it's wild, like we speak about a lot of I guess your aggression and again, people listening, you know, there's gonna be the the Keeleys are gonna be listening, the you know, um the Tollies, yeah, you know, they're gonna listen and go, they know exactly what you were like in the beta.

SPEAKER_03 20:09

Yeah, yeah. A lot of the the three RR guys are gonna probably this is probably gonna make a lot of sense for them now. Um and and a lot of the four and two guys as well, because um, as you said, mate, I've got a pretty a pretty intense personality, I guess you'd want to call it. Um, but it was just I'm a product of my environment. But the thing with me is too, like, I'll go into this a bit after. My uh my cousin, who was basically a brother to me, he um he took his own life um and so built off the childhood and losing lots of mates. I lost a couple of mates, uh lost a couple of mates um that I used to play footy with, uh, you know, country kids growing up and crashing cars and that sort of thing. A couple of blokes died on the um on the mountain, um, snowboarding and skiing, stuff like that. So death wasn't very far from me growing up. Um, I saw a fair few dead bodies growing up too. No way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just I so my mum used to work at a at a at a bowling club, and it used to be sort of the hub in the snowy mountains where heaps of people used to come and play lawn bowls as well. Oh, the oldies. Yeah, man. And then stinking hot summers up there, you get like 30, 40 degrees, and they'd be up there just punching schooners and playing bowls. And I was one of those kids that like um if if dad was at work and mum was at work, I was sort of a bit of a bit of a hood rat. Yeah, but it was a small country town, everybody knew everybody, like um, so very safe, different times. But I'd either be with my Nan and Pop, who um, you know, I I have only love for and I look up to them and I miss them every day. But my grandfather to me was a bit of a role model, and I think about him often. But they also he was a bit of an entrepreneur, my my pop, because he he was a national serviceman, but he worked on the snowy hydro scheme, and when it finished, he became like a I guess you'd call it operations manager or area manager for the Shire at the time for our area. So he was doing that, but he also had like um a fleet of coaster bar. And because we where we lived, he would do like the old people's run to the nearest town to do their shopping because they couldn't drive. And then in the winter time, he'd take them up the mountains and like um tow all their ski shit up there, and you get all the people going up there on holidays and doing the snow thing. And then during summer, he'd do like tours around the mountains and all over the snowy mountains. So I was with him all the time in the buses. But going back to the dead body part um at the bowling club, some old G would just spear in and have a heart attack, and I'd be there and I'd see it, and I'd be like, What's going on here? So there was three or four of those I saw, and then there was another time uh my my dad and I were woodcarting at the time, and we got a we got a call on the radio um that the it came through the police channel and they said um if anybody's in the area, can you go to Tang Tangra Dam um car park? There's something going on there. We don't have eyes on. Can someone get there and have a look? Anyway, me and the old boy rolled up and his old green Chev pulled up with a load of wood on, and there was a car there with his doors open, and it was just like it was running. Um, but the doors were open anyway. We got closer to the car, and an old mate had stuck a um 308 in his mouth. Oh shit. And and popped his lid. But what I remember about that was that the guy was wearing like reading glasses, and the overpressure in his head was so great that his eyes had popped out of his skull and stuck to his glasses. So yeah, I saw that. I was about 10 or 11 when I saw that. Any understanding? Oh, yeah, for sure. So I grew up shooting, man. Like I was um Yeah, but understanding of what happened in in suicide, etc. Yeah, I think so. I mean, it was pretty sorry, you're pretty young. It's pretty evident, like, yeah, but but too, man, and I'll and I'll touch on the trauma thing, you grow up quick. When you're when you're in a flight or fight uh kind of environment um mentally all the time, you grow up pretty fast. Especially as a single child. Yeah, and you're and you're always sort of on In an aggressive environment. Yeah, and you're hyper-vigilant, like you're on eggshells, you never know what's gonna happen next. And it's just like um, yeah, that's just sort of how it is for me. Like that's why my hyper-vigilance and and my um my I guess my uh level of aggression is so acute, you know. Not that I have a short temper, but so you with my old man he had a head, he had a real short temper because I think he had small man syndrome, but it was like for me, and you'll be able to test to this, there's there's no like there's no sort of lead up. I'll just internalize it and then I snap.

SPEAKER_01 24:19

Oh yeah, 100%. Yeah, so that's that that was also manufactured within the defense as well. Yeah, especially in inventory. Like I've said this time and time again. Your first role is to kill a motherfucker, yeah. In the inventory, yeah, 100%. That's the case to kill or capture him. And you say kill first.

SPEAKER_03 24:34

Yeah, that's the ode. Yeah. Well, I mean, the system works, why change it? I just can't undo it. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:41

Well, that's the problem. Just don't just don't charge us for it later. Yeah, please. Uh, family history uh within defense.

SPEAKER_03 24:49

Anything? Yeah, so um there was a guy, I did have this written down. I think he was uh he was he was like a um I think he was a passer, which is unfortunate. But um I think he's World War I vintage, no, sorry, he got he got killed by the Japs. So he was World War II vintage. Um I don't really have any historical data on the guy other than a kamikaze. I think there was like a little patrol boat or something. I was doing some recovery mission or something. So yeah, I won't I won't sort of try and claim it, but yeah, World War II, old mate got zapped by a plane, and then only my grandfather was a a Nasho with the engineers um in and around, I guess. Yeah, what? Yeah, that's it was a Nasho for the engineers. It was posted out of Ingadine, and um that was pretty much it. And I remember going, I remember going to his um post-dated, he got an ADM. I think it was for his 70th birthday. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. So we had like a um we had like a sorry, it was a Nasho medal or something that got raised later on down the track, and I remember at his 60th or 70th birthday, I can't remember which one exactly, but we had a big dinner and he was presented with it. And that's cool. Yeah, our local member, um Peter Cochrane, he was the he was a Vietnam vet, and then went later on he was a National Party Um senator, I think it was, and then um he was the one who presented it to me, me pop. He was very well regarded in our area, my grandfather, and um yeah, man. If I if I think about somebody fondly as a as a male role model in my life, uh he would have been the first one.

SPEAKER_02 26:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:21

And closely, close second would be my uncle, um, who was my cousin's father. Very uh very good businessman and uh very successful in his life.

SPEAKER_01 26:31

Yeah, yeah, right. Um just quickly speaking of fucking war crimes, how about the Japs? Jesus. Yeah, right. What didn't they do? Jesus. Um, yeah, right. Uh and just in regard to your growing up, you know, I know there's all this trauma and all this aggressiveness and you know, dys uh functional family household. Obviously, you moving out 14 and schooling, like how did you go with school? Obviously, that was just fucking side quest.

SPEAKER_03 26:58

Yeah, yeah, sort of. So I'm one of those, I'm one of those. Um, I mean, when we talk about my childhood, mum loved me unconditionally. So there was never a question of whether I was loved and protected as much as I could be. But yeah, schooling-wise, um, mate, I was always the athlete. Um, I was sort of very lucky with my athletic gifts. Um, didn't actually do anything with them. Um, yeah, look, I love school, primary school's great. Um, yeah, man, went to high school, um got suspended my first week of high school, and then um What was that for? So fighting. It's fighting, yeah. So I picked it. There's a bit of there's a bit of a story behind that. Um I don't want to slay anyone, but there was a girl that I was pretty sweet on back home anyway.

SPEAKER_02 27:39

There was an older shout out.

SPEAKER_03 27:41

Yeah, shout out. There was an older guy. There was an older guy that um used to like go to parties and try and get the girls drunk and do that whole scene. But I was very like I'm very um uh I'm a bit of a advocate for DV, obviously. I'm an advocate for women's protection. Uh and that's part of the reason why I actually got into the social media scene was for farm, the farmers, the DV, child protection, and obviously veterans, uh stuff like that. Uh so anyway, um old mate did this to this girl I was sweet on. She wasn't real great about it because she was blind. I cornered him in a uh I cornered him in a tennis court one afternoon and he couldn't get access. It's one of those old tennis courts back in like it was only one way in, one way out. So I funneled him into the corner and fed him and then um I broke, broke my hand in the process. So I had a fucking baseball glove for a hand for for a little while. But he'd gone on to high school the year before. So my turn was next up. So following year I went to high school, but he'd already geared because me and obviously obviously after that, me and him we weren't mates anymore. But I went to high school the first day, day one week, one high school. I went down to the lines and I was trying to find where I was going to. I think it was K17, was my my lines there. Anyway, these two these two dudes come down the hallway and they're just like, Oh, you are you old mate that that bashed out, mate? I was like, Oh, who's your mate? And they're just like um blah blah blah. Anyway, one this little guy hooked me and it took one to the face, and I was like, my old man hit me harder than that. So yeah, there was two two V1 and Dino got suspended for um feeding them. Well, apparently I hurt them too much. Because I learned early, man, like and I've said this in the past, like I treat a fight to the death for my life. Yeah, like to the death. I don't, I don't, I'm not, I'm not the guy that if you're gonna we're gonna have a fight and we're gonna you know I'll shake your hand at the end, but the thing is, man, I got the I I got a switch, and when it clicks, I'm I'll fucking hear off. I'll fucking kill you, man. I promise you. Yeah and I don't mean I'm not trying to be Terry. No, I get it, I get it. But it's like if someone's going to make the decision to be hostile and attack me, they have to be willing to accept what comes. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 29:42

Which again was harboured within the defense force and perpetuated within the defense force. Cultivated. Exactly right.

SPEAKER_03 29:48

And you've got to think about um war fighters throughout history, man. We're dealing with thousands and thousands of years of psychological screening. Like I'm not saying that the psyches are as good as they were when the 300 were fighting bloody fighting back then, but that that warrior ethics and the warrior culture and the warrior spirit spirit doesn't come from nowhere. It's it's through time, through great war fighters and people that have just inherited those bloodlines. And I so I honestly believe, uh, and this is my own philosophy on it, special operators you can be trained to a certain point, but you need to be born for that job. Like it's it's in your epigenetics to be one of those guys. And um, you know, I wasn't the greatest operator at two commando, definitely wasn't. Um I worked for with some absolute uh champions in their field and guys that really raised me up, um, you know, and I'm I'm grateful every day for those guys for even just tolerating me, but not only that is um teaching me and bringing me along because I was I was made better. I was made so much better as a soldier and an operator by the guys that I was lucky to be surrounded with and worked with. But that even goes back to three area, man. Like there's some there's some absolute G's that I worked with at Three Area 100. And um, you know, I obviously I'm biased with three, but I I can't comment to the other units. But for me, three is was the crucible for for all my learning and all my all my soldiering attributes. I I took from I got from three and um and then obviously took that with me further on.

SPEAKER_01 31:26

Yeah, yeah, exactly. We'll talk about a couple of those guys that obviously influenced you within the Thurbatane. Now, obviously you spoke we spoke about a little bit uh you know your family history within defense. What year did you finish school?

SPEAKER_03 31:40

Uh 2000 2000, I think, man. 2000, I think. How old are you? I'm 42. 83. 84. I repeated year one though. I'm 84 as well, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:51

Oh yeah, so there yeah, you would have been yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:54

Yeah, because the reason why I repeated wasn't because I was a simple cunt, it was because um it was because um in my school, there was only 13 people in my primary school. So that was like a third of the whole population of the town, really.

SPEAKER_01 32:05

So it was concentrated learning, so you couldn't just slip through the cracks.

SPEAKER_03 32:08

Yeah, it was one, it was one classroom. That's it. You know, slingshots weren't part of the curriculum, I found out. But anyway, it was like uh yeah, repeated year one. But I was very I went into school young too. Mum put me in school young because it was like, get out of the house. Yeah. Because it was a better environment.

SPEAKER_01 32:22

Yeah, you know. So you finish uh schooling 2000, 2001-ish. Where does the the desire for the defence force come into play?

SPEAKER_03 32:31

Yeah, so interesting. Um I mentioned when I moved out with the boys, I had a an extended family. You've got a um a business in the ACT that I I won one, I was sort of I used to moonlight during school holidays. So when my school holidays, I didn't have school holidays like everybody else, I'd just go to work or I'd go to Canberra and work because I wanted my own money, have my my own freedom. So I used to go to Canberra and work for my um my family, and I used to play footy up there for the mighty, uh, for the mighty Gungal and Bulls. Shout out to Scruffy if you're listening, mate. But um, yeah, so long-winded way of saying that I went up to Canberra and never made the grade because um I'm a die-hard camber supporter. And uh don't say anything, I'll punch you, man. Get out. Yeah, don't say anything.

SPEAKER_01 33:13

When was the last time they won? Was it 1994? Something. Yeah, oh fuck.

SPEAKER_03 33:17

Well, mine are premiers last year. You've got to give us something. Oh, that's cute. Oh, yeah. But Ethan.

SPEAKER_01 33:20

We wear the premiers.

SPEAKER_03 33:21

Yeah, I know, mate. But how about when Ethan Strange ran a clinic on Queensland the other way? Oh, look, here we go. Get out. Ethan Strangey. Feed him. You can come pump me, missus anytime, strangey. You can. I've gone to work soon, trust me. Um, so yeah, mate, to go back. I left Canberra. I didn't uh I you know had lofty dreams of being uh being at Canberra Raiders, but I obviously wasn't good enough. So I moved back home, started just working uh back home, and I was working with Pop and one night we were running snow, we're running uh people up the mountain, and we're coming home, and the next morning I was on Nan's couch having a snooze in front of the fire, and I had the because you know it's just that background noise that the the news was on and saw the tower, saw the planes or the not planes go into the towers, and I was laying on the lounge thinking, like everybody else, everyone's got the same story. Is this a die-hard movie? But I was um yeah, laying on the couch and I was just sort of one eye open and I saw it, and I was just like, what's going on here? And then because I was in a bit of a crossroads in my life, I was like, well, fucking better, better put the uniform on, I think. Yeah, there's always a little bit of thing in the back of my mind. I tried to join the the APS when I was in Canberra, uh, a few different jobs. Like I tried to get into the Canberra Fieries and uh a few different things, but um, yeah, there used to be this job at the airport, I think the APS was like a security guard for the airport, pretty cruisy, EL, paid well, didn't have to have much experience, but I applied for that and in lieu of that um I joined the army and then um and then when I was I think I was at Puki or I was in Iraq and I got the letter from the ACT government saying that I've been knocked back. I need more life experience. I was in Iraq actually, and I got the letter saying, mate, you need more life experience. You know, come back in a few years, you're not suited to this role. It's like, yeah, probably a good thing because I'm in Iraq now, bud.

SPEAKER_01 35:01

Just tip that mic for me. Yeah, just uh tip it like this way.

SPEAKER_04 35:05

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 35:05

Yep, yeah, yep, yep.

SPEAKER_03 35:06

I'm not used to having something like big and black, black so close to my mouth. It's shock easier.

SPEAKER_04 35:10

Yeah, that's the worst thing. I'm the only white dude with two black dudes.

SPEAKER_01 35:13

What's going on here, man? Um yeah, right. So you obviously you you get the inkling to join the defence force, 13-1901, call the number, do the um medical, psychological testing, aptitude testing, blah blah blah. Get your enlistment date. What did you join as? And what was your concept of what the defence force was? You know, you see 9-11, you're like, fuck yeah, war's on. And the back then, like for the younger listener, there was plenty of ads on TV, 13-1901. It wasn't about fucking magazines and everything. And it wasn't it wasn't gay, it was cool, it was cool stuff. You know, even when we were growing up, like you know, back in the 80s and 90s, like they were like ABCs driving through, they'd crack a beer open and have a drink, and 13, 1901.

SPEAKER_03 35:54

Yeah, the army's the edge. The army of the edge, you know what I mean? They were good. I liked it, man. It was pretty spread of core, like it was very Australian, it was very proud time. Back from that 90s, 80s, 90s. I feel for the new generations, man, because you those guys are never going to know what it was like. And when it comes forward now that we're like fighting for Australia or being vocal about Australia, they think we're talking about now. Well, I'm talking about the 80s and 90s, and I know we can't go back, but at the same time, too, I'm pre-internet era, yeah. You know, so it's like I know I've I've lived both lives. Like I've lived the the no internet good life, and then I've lived the post-internet Australia, which is a lot different. Our growing up was different, different, man. That age group is just uh a lot smarter, a lot more robust. You could you could get you could get more into your day. Um, you know, I was I was out at dawn and back at dark on a pushbike. Yeah, man, it's just a different time. And I don't know whether the media saturation has has created that uh social anxiety and social fear around like kitty fiddlers and and kidnappers and shit. Because we used to have spates of kidnappings where I was from, like ran, because there was a pretty bad jail near us, and they um I don't know whatever happened, but there used to be like these people that would roll into country towns like mine and try and grab girls and fans and shit. So I was always super crazy about that kind of wild shit.

SPEAKER_01 37:04

Pedos got fed back then too. Yeah, they got fed.

SPEAKER_03 37:07

Oh look, mate, uh, I'm from a very um area where there's a massive national park, and um yeah, that's all I say to that.

SPEAKER_01 37:15

Yeah, yeah, I don't know. I mate, even where I got, you know, not far from here in Brisbane. If there was a pedo kicking around, like it'd get around the community and that they would just get fed and they'll they were gone.

SPEAKER_03 37:25

Oh mate, I I I have I have vivid memories of um of uh other men's stories about things that may or may not have happened if you're listening to AFP it didn't happen. But um, yeah, look, I uh I have no qualms or questions around that place has fertilizer in it. No, good. Yeah, fucking good. And that's the and that's the life I grew up. Like I don't um I don't pull many punches when it comes to those kinds of people and um if I ever get my if I ever get if I ever get my opportunity I won't waste it. No, 100%. 100%.

SPEAKER_01 37:55

Now like I was speaking about with uh join a defence force, you know, multiple options, multiple different cores you can join. Hey, hey. Now what's going on here? Who wants to know that? Let let's let's let's let's uh open Pandora's box of where Burjo's beginnings for.

SPEAKER_03 38:13

That's probably where all my rage comes from.

SPEAKER_01 38:14

So you can fold a blanket pretty good.

SPEAKER_03 38:16

Oh well mate, the funny thing is when you're talking about recruiting and all the all the ads and stuff like that, I didn't I didn't really know jack shit about the army or any of the any of the services to be honest. All I knew was I'm gonna go and join the army. And uh this is this is well played by the recruiter, I'm sure. But um I rocked up and he's like, What do you want to do? I was like, Oh, I just I just want to be in the army. He's like, okay, blah blah blah. And I um, as I said, pre-internet, there wasn't much um much info. Yeah, I couldn't really get much info because mate, you got a sweet job. It's um it's called Rayo, you'd be a Rayoch Ranger. I was like, oh yeah, cool. It's like like Rangers thing, that and he's just like, yeah. Yeah, Rayoch Ranger. So Royal, what is it, the Royal Australian Ordnance Corps, mate.

SPEAKER_01 38:54

So basically you got you with the word ranger.

SPEAKER_03 38:56

He got me with the Ranger Corps, but I ended up as a I was slighted to be slated to be a QE. So mate, yeah. I started out, I started out as a QE. I went through recruiting, I got to Puke, and um they're like, um, so I had a infantry uh corporal as my section commander, and he's from Tu R Kurzinger, I think his name was. Anyway, he was like, What are you doing going to Rayoch? I was like, What's Rayoch? He's like, that's where you're gonna go and work. And he was an old grisly faced bastard from Tu R, and he's just like, mate, you're a you're a fucking homo, mate. You're gonna go and work in a workshop, you're gonna be in a warehouse fighting blankets and count counting towels and handing out bloody water bottles and all these things. I was like, What are you talking about? I'm going to get a rifle and fucking run through the bush.

SPEAKER_04 39:41

He's like, I'm I'm here to be a Rayoch Ranger.

SPEAKER_03 39:44

And it was like a joke for the platoon. Anyway, he goes, No, mate, he goes, that's not the job you're doing at all. And I said, What am I going to do? And he told me, and I said, Yeah, well I don't want to do that. He goes, Well, that's what you're doing. So I tried, like I put in my paperwork to core transfer, and I actually overheard the all the corporals down the end one night talking about, you know, that fucking Burjo guy, he needs to be in the infantry. Like he's just he's not suited, he's gonna hate it, he's probably gonna get out. I don't know. And then and even back then they were talking about the hierarchy about how um how mismanagement was and just how it wasn't like it wasn't audited correctly or profiled correctly. Like obviously, guys like me, I'm destined to do what I've done. Um, yeah, so I don't think that would have been a good fit for me. But evidently, uh all the promises that were made to me for core transfer while I was at Pookie didn't didn't uh materialise. So I uh I left Puki and ended up down in uh And that's oh four.

SPEAKER_01 40:33

So this is uh 45 days back then. I think so, yeah. Yeah, it was obviously weeks, is that what we have 45 days it was five weeks or four or five weeks? Five of mine September 03. Yeah. October 03.

SPEAKER_03 40:44

Yeah, we had we're we were in pretty similar times then. Um but yeah, man, I um yeah, did that and yeah, didn't really have a problem with it. I was a fucking shit runner though. Like even for 40 my interval my interval trainings were great, but anything like long distance, dude, I thought I was having a heart attack at 2.4. You know, I never really uh really done that kind of shit before. And the guy that won the the guy that won the best PT was some rake, some nerd, you know, and he was just you know anything physical I could crush it.

SPEAKER_01 41:11

Yeah, but um yeah that whole running which is wild because that's what you get into and we'll talk about that in the later life. Running ultra marathons and stuff, which is fucking madness. But so if you're on there, mate, you you're you're a Rayoch Ranger. Rayoch Ranger.

SPEAKER_03 41:27

So I ended up in Bandiana, mate. So it's down in the Victorian border, all of Ridonga. Um, and I got there and it was just like all these fat bodies, you know. Um, I think that's the school of medics down there, that's where they do all the um PTIs and all the medic chicks, transporties, um, yeah, and Pucker's not far from there either. So I was in this, I was in this world of just like I'm a I didn't fit in, like I was a pretty I'm a pretty like blokey kind of dude. And these guys that I was rolling with were just like these like basement dweller video gameplay. And I'm a nerd, bro. Like I play, I'm a gamer as well. I'm not so much anymore since I've had kids, but I'm a gamer, you know, so I sort of get it, but these guys are like the ones with the hand in the Cheeto bag and like the three mouses going at once, kind of shit. So yeah, man, I went down there and um caused quite a stir, as you can probably imagine. I um it was just a hive of females as well, which was probably the only good part about it. Um, but evidently I was kept in contact with my mates in Canberra because this whole army thing wasn't shaken out the way I thought it was. Uh and they called me and said, Oh mate, if you've got a pretty critical game this weekend, you don't have to be um you don't have to be a member of the team, but you come back and pull the boots on if you like. I was like, Yeah, okay, no, alright. So I went AWOL within sort of the first couple weeks I was down there. From IETs. Well, yeah. Because they hadn't slated because the IET hadn't started yet. Oh, so you just like on a holding. Yeah, a little bit of a holding between. That's why the wheels come off so quick down there, because it didn't really have any there was no first parade. I mean, I had to do first parade and whatever, but it was like that was it. Yeah, but it was only like one day a week. Yeah, and Pete some book, yeah, bro. Well, for me it was there was no pizza, there was no like there was no structured PT, there was no like like there was a chain of command, but it was very loose. I remember this lady who was in charge of me, she was like, Yeah, bro, I won't say anything, but she was just not, she wasn't suited. What my what I thought the army was, this is not what I'm picking up, it's not what you're putting down. So I was like, yeah, okay, where am I? So mate, I um before that course even started, they started, they made us do like a like a Raytail course, which is cool because I hadn't done that in Kabuka. So I got me mailed me Raytail course, which is just a radio operators course, basic radio operators course. Um and then I went A-WOL and went back to Canberra and played footy, um, just for the weekend, but obviously that was long enough. And then on my way back down, I caught up with one of my mates that had a um his family had a property down at um Aubrey Redonga, and it was like they were cutting, they were cutting loose in that that uh seed. Well, the months before it dried out, and they're ready to um and they're ready to like bale it and harvest it. So on my way back, like rang him and said, on my way back through, I'll pull. And I'll stay the night and I'll help you with hay cart for a couple of days. So yeah, spent a couple of days with those guys, hay carted, and then made my way back to base. And then when I got back, the um MPs were at the gate waiting. They said, because they got hold of me, I called them and I said, Yeah, I'm coming, I'm on my way back. I haven't left. I just had some shit I need to do. And then um, yeah, I got back and they were just like, Right, I'm mate, you're um you're in charge. You gotta do extras, you fucking all these things. It was just mess duty and yeah, scrubbing pots and pans and whatever. Yeah, whatever. Like a couple pots of pans. Didn't you tell them you're out doing Rayock Ranger stuff?

SPEAKER_04 44:32

No, that's what I said.

SPEAKER_03 44:33

I was just black ops. I was just the FO man, I was just trying to get ahead and see where the enemies are. Are they coming down from Canberra or not? But yeah, they they didn't see the uh they didn't see the funny side of that. But yeah, obviously the hay carton paid pretty well. Had a f uh stayed over there for a couple of days. Um what else did I do down there, mate? I pushed my core transfer in because I didn't realise at the time, but the platoon I had to meet my platoon sergeant after that because I got in trouble and I got charged. I had to have like a paperwork trail, whatever it was. Um and then my platoon sergeant was X3 guy. Oh, you're right. And he's just like, What's this what's going on, mate? Infantry guy. Yeah, infantry guy. And he was like, What's that what's the deal? And I was like, I don't want to be here. And he goes, Well, what do you mean? I said, I I want to go to infantry. I want to go to infantry, I want to go and jump out of airplanes. Because after being in the you know what they used to have this this con this uh magazine that used to come out called Contact. Yeah, I actually I actually appeared in that. I'll tell you I'll tell you about that later. It happened when I was on my Rio cycle. Uh anyway, um yeah, so he goes, What do you want to do? I said, I want to go, I want to go to infantry, I want to go to three air, I want to jump out airplanes. He's just like, that's my old unit. I was like, Cool. I said, Well, let's do that. And he goes, Right, oh, you know you have to go to Singleton and all that kind of stuff. I said, What about singleton? He goes, You have to go and learn how to be an infantry soldier. I was like, Cool, let's let's get it happening. So, anyway, um he turned that around in about two weeks. Oh, did he? Pack your shit, yeah, before the before the IETs for um blanket folders even started. It was like, um, yeah, so pack your gear and load your load your ute and get going. So I marched into single and away we went.

SPEAKER_01 46:03

Yeah, yeah. And just quickly, just for the listener out there, you know, we're not we're not taking the piss about uh Rayoch, you know, there's it is pretty gay, but you know, not everyone's suited for the infantry or engineers or whatever, you know, and and bombs don't fly without supply.

SPEAKER_03 46:18

Bro, I um I can only say a lot of good dudes there too. Mate, I tell you now, most of my good mates um that aren't in that aren't in combat cores are like QEs, transporties, um, armored dudes, um, pay clerks. Uh yeah, purely because like a a third grade ride is better than a first grade walk for the transporty boys out there. Um you always got to be mates with the with the with the pay clerk. 100%. Because if um he'll never the this specific one I'm talking about, it looks like someone spat chocolate milk all over him. He's a white boy and he's got freckles all over him. Shout out to Jonesy. But um he always had this habit, or he wasn't very good at his job because my leave never got pushed through to the boss, and neither did any anything like that. So when I when I eventually got out, I had all this leave acquired, and I was like, hey, what do you know? But anyway, good bloke. Um pay clerk, you could look after that guy, cooks, you could look after that guy. 100% double rations mate all the time.

SPEAKER_01 47:11

Yeah, but yeah, like I said, everyone's not not everyone's, you know, there's jobs for everyone. Yeah, that's right. If if you're they're probably the smart ones, if you're with you, a dweller in your in your cellar. Yeah, we've got the job for you. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 47:22

There's there's something for everybody. Um, yeah, man. And I think they they do it well, bro. Like we can't, we we we were we were enabled with a lot of the jobs that we did later on in in our in my career from the support units. Like Raimi used to fix our cars when we blew them up. The armorers used to fix our gats when they got fucked up. It's a cog in the wheel, yeah, man. And and the guys that get and I'm and I'm I say this with reservation because there's not many dudes that think this way, even though there's people out there in the general army that do think that we think this way, we don't see ourselves as special at all, and there's no like us versus them or we think we're better. That doesn't exist for us. I think it exists for you guys, you know what I mean? Um, because we can't operate without the without the the 99% help. Yeah, 100%. And that's how I feel about it. You know, and um there's guys out there that know shit that I'd never be able to know.

SPEAKER_01 48:10

Yeah, at the end of the day, SF is just support for infantry as well. Exactly. We're just we're just a little portion of the big machine. That's it, mate. It is a big machine. Now, obviously, from there you get your transfer into uh the infantry corps transfer, yep. Straight on a bus up to sunny singleton, mate.

SPEAKER_03 48:28

Yeah, it was it was interesting, man. It was um summertime, very hot. Singleton's very hot. 04? Yep, 04, uh end of, I think. Yeah, end of, yeah. Um, and yeah, mate, so I went into a platoon. Um, my uh my section commander is Corporal Edwards, mate, and he um he's a bit of a legend in my world. He was um he basically kept me in because I had um, you know, I was having you know dramas at home a little bit, and it was sort of like one of those things where you really question whether you're gonna stick this out or not. But he he held me in because I guess he saw something in myself that I didn't, and he was a T more, T more vet, um OG uh recon guy. Shaved his legs probably, but he um yeah, no, really great, really great leader, and that's where it sort of started to gel for me, realising that these guys that are around me that are obviously seeing these qualities in me that I never I never experienced with other mature males because I was always sort of in my own little world, you know. And because I had that personality type, people had trouble bonding with me and which led me to have like a lot of distrust, you know. But with uh Corporal Edwards, that's where it all started to change. And um where was he from? What battalion? I'm gonna say a northern battalion. Yeah. Because if I said three, uh I'd be wrong because he wasn't from three, but um, yeah, he was a he was a jet anyway.

SPEAKER_01 49:48

Yep. Yep. Uh in regard to singer, how'd you find that uh grasping that concept? I suppose you haven't really you've only done singer um kabuka, you didn't do any Rayoch stuff, right? Uh Rayok Ranger stuff. No, um, so this is kind of your first IETs moving into the inventory role, but like you said, this is kind of suited to more your personality.

SPEAKER_03 50:07

Mate, it was a tough slog from memory. I remember um because I'm from the Snowy Mountains, mate, so heat really gets to me, right? And uh this whole pack marching thing um took a little bit of practice. Um, and I was put in a platoon where there was when that um what was it called when the guys were direct entry guys? Yep. So I went into a platoon.

SPEAKER_01 50:24

DRS.

SPEAKER_03 50:25

DRS, that's right. So there was a bunch of us that were just regular dudes, but then there was a there was a like a sort of a platoon or platoon minus, oh sorry, a section minus of these guys that had come from the greater army um that had done years in like a say like a SIG or a transport or an engineer unit, um, and they were just doing my IETs to then be qualified as grunts to then go on to four or elsewhere to do um selection for that. So, mate, I that that was my first sort of exposure to this whole like um bigger than infantry world. Again, I knew there were special forces in the world, but I didn't really know how it all went together, mate. To be fair, I didn't know shit really about the army. I was just rolling. I was the same, mate.

SPEAKER_01 51:05

Yeah, I had no idea there was a four-hour trick, man. I was just getting around the room. I knew there was SASR, that was it.

SPEAKER_03 51:11

Yeah, me too, you know. And for me, it was because I spent so much time playing footy, it was just like I I really thrived in that team environment, um, bloke environment, just like we're all working to the same objectives, hard work, we're all suffering together. Um, you know, the we're only as strong as the weakest link kind of um funsies. But yeah, man, so single for me was tough uh in the sense that like some of those extended pack marches for me, which was interesting because I used to carry a fair bit on my back when I was home, but I guess the temperatures used to fuck me. Um I used to go down with heat a bit. Uh, but it was a good learning experience for me because the I used to have an ego, I had an ego death at um at um, I've had multiple ego deaths in my life, but um had an ego death at Singleton, um, where I really realised that I could rely on the guys to get me through, and vice versa. Um, you know, forever if I was weak at something, there'd be something that I'd excel at, which I could, I could in my mind it was like I could pay you back for how you've helped me out. So there's always there's always a um a little um profit and loss statement in my mind about um if you help me, I can help you. So Singer was great, mate. I learned a lot of things. The good thing about Singer was I um there was a guy in another platoon, he was an AFS shooter from Darwin. Um, I can't remember the platoon or whatever, but basically he was a contract shooter for like farms and stuff where they used to go and knock pigs or bulls or whatever they were shooting over there, and he got his cross rifles there. I remember we went to the range and one of our serials were doing, and I was like asking about this cross rifles thing, and I um because I'm pretty handy with the old rifle growing up doing it. I um I got my cross rifles when I was a tingle as well.

SPEAKER_05 52:40

I sick.

SPEAKER_03 52:41

Yeah, yeah. So when I went to three, I didn't really understand of it, but when they um and you had your polys and shit, you got the you got the little cross there. So that was pretty cool, and um I didn't understand, I didn't, you know, for me it was just like I was another thing, but um, yeah, I was pretty, pretty proud of that later. Yeah, it was sort of yeah, one of those things.

SPEAKER_02 52:56

Yeah, it was, it was kind of like a big big deal and cross rifles.

SPEAKER_03 53:00

Yeah, yeah. And being so junior too, it was sort of pretty cool.

SPEAKER_02 53:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:03

But um, yeah, mate, I love Sino. Um we used to obviously have that proximity to Newcastle where you're from. And um anytime we got anytime we got any kind of leave, we'd get the old Fort Ford Fairlane limousine and get about eight of us in there because it was cheaper than a uh a maxi cab, and we'd we'd get on down to Sesnock there for a halfway stop and then punch down into Newcastle and stay at Frosty's or um wherever we stayed there as a group and get over to Fannies and carry on. And I don't even know. I went back to Newcastle a little bit later last year. It's it's a great place, it changed a lot, but um fond memories of newy. No more fannies, no more fannies. Yeah, I think I think Maddie John's are on that, didn't he? He was a menace. We actually caught up with him one night on the PC, he's a menace. Good bloke, probably changed a lot now, but he was a he was a good fun man. Um, one thing that I remember from Singo was we did this APC training that ended up playing paying dividends later um when I went to Iraq because it was I don't can't remember, I think they were trying to build mechanized into the infantry somewhere. But when I was doing our dig-in phase at Singo, um we all got launched on these APCs, the old buckets, and uh it was fucking stinking hot. And then we had one of those classic singleton uh thunderstorms for about three days when we were digging in. So I was up to my eyeballs in mud, digging stage three pits, and fuck man, it was just um yeah, it was a real it was a real eye-opener to what infantry was and why we do the things we do and the way we train. Um and yeah, man, what else? What else was sounding?

SPEAKER_01 54:27

So from yeah, in the last couple of weeks, this is when you kind of get your selections. They give you, you know, they give you the options. There's one, two, and three area or six RAR at that stage and four or five, seven. Yep. You get your preference, you put in put in for three.

SPEAKER_03 54:39

Yeah, I put in for three. I was um unapologetic with that too. Everyone was I think there was people that wanted, I think three I think there was only two of us who went to three RR out of the whole platoon. Oh, was it? Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah. So I lucked out. I think I was the other boy. Um Robert No, he wanted to go and didn't. So I think I was the only one who went to three, to be honest. I think uh I think I've I um my memory escapes me, but I um I think I really performed in the field phases and the PT phases, uh, which sort of galvanized me to have more of a say about where I wanted to go. I think there was four or five of us that actually got to go where we wanted to go. Um, and some guys were from Townsville, obviously, or Queensland, and they wanted to go up to the Northern Battalions. But given my um my living in the south, yeah, I think that might have played a part. But yeah, I think mainly the just the output and the work rate, um, you get your own way if you if you work hard, I guess. Yeah. You just uh what my grandfather used to say, it was um you you you're lucky, you're you're constantly lucky if you work every day, you know. Like luck, luck finds you if you work every day, meaning that you don't get anything for free. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:44

So um get up and get after it. Marching out of single, just quickly now back to your family, your mum, your dad, where obviously your mum's still in your life. Your dad, what's happening there?

SPEAKER_03 55:57

To a bit of a degree, like I sort of um I sort of cut ties, not wouldn't say cut ties, but when you're in the system, you sort of just run at a different pace of the rest of the world. And I was always so busy with just wanting to, you know, soldier. Soldier. Just want to be, you know, building these new frameworks and networks with the boys. And when I got in, they these guys became my new family. So I was able to I was able sort of to jettison my my family um with respect to my cousins. I always kept in contact with my cousins because these these guys used they were basically my brothers, these two boys. And then um yeah, mate, so yeah, by and short, I used to probably touch base with mum. I call her every now and then, probably not as much as I should have. But uh again, like I said, I was just I was in this new family group now. Did they come to the march out? No, no, no, uh, no. Uh they came to Kapuka, yeah, yeah, but no, no, not sing out, not single, no.

SPEAKER_01 56:51

Yep. So from there, mate, obviously singers not too far from Sydney. Jump on a bus, mate, by yourself or I was by myself, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:00

Yeah, I was by myself. Probably a taxi. But we had to do pickup, we had to do pick up pickups on the way. There was all those other people we had to pick up on the way, and it was just like this hot drop at three. Yeah, I remember we drive in the we drove in the in the gate, and everyone's like, fucking, what's this place?

SPEAKER_01 57:13

Yeah, so you drive into the gate, past the guard house, uh mate on guard out the front. Stevie Constable's on guard. It's TV. One eye open. And um, yeah, get dropped off at um BHQ, and yeah, mate, it begins right outside that skippy badge.

SPEAKER_03 57:32

Yeah, mate. Well, funny, the um the the the bloody the the bus doors open, the bloody hydraulic doors open, they fly open, and I'm I'm standing out the front of support company and uh got the bag drag and out we get. I don't really remember going to BHQ or anything like that, but they just said someone met us there, they had a clipboard, and they're like, Where's the rest of you? I was like, it's just me. And I was like, okay. And they're like, well, you come with me, grab your shit. And I had a trunk and I had my green bag and I had a backpack, so I'm fucking struggling as it is. Anyway, I'm uh I'm just dragging this thing, dragging this thing, and I'm you know, he goes, right, sees you going to Elf Company. I was like, Yeah, yeah, okay. Yes, yes, yes. And then um, I'm dragging me, I'm dragging my trunk because I basically realized that I had too much weight, so I just left my bag and backpack and took my trunk first. Um, this fucking jerk wouldn't give me a hand either. Anyway, I'm dragging this trunk across support company's lawn. So the old line, so you've got the shat and then you've got support building. So I'm dragging my trunk across the lawn uh and from the top tier, from the top tier, these there's Jeremy Keely, Greg Thornton, Halani, and uh this other fella, I can't remember his name, but he used to moonlight as a jig on the weekends, he has a dirty mustache, but he uh I think he's Italian bloke, but anyway, I'm dragging me trunk and this fucking throw-down bottles and and Melbourne bitter bottles coming at me, you fucking crap out, get off our lawn, you fucking wrecking the lawn. And they said a few colourful words to me, and not just in the sense of swearing, but also my skin colour. But um uh and then yeah, so I made haste across that lawn and they said, You better come back and fix that lawn up. Like after the fact, I realised that Jeremy Keeley is one of the best blacks you'll meet, and he's got the biggest heart going, but it was all just a bit of that early three hour uh hazing and um you know the later in the army they call it bastardization, but it was very, very character building. I was I was I wouldn't say I was scared shitless, but when you got um a combination of uh uh all plus six foot islanders hazing you, it's sort of like okay, well I'm here, I've arrived, but um yeah, mate, so Elf Company, away we go. That was my first um that was my first first memory of three area marching marching in. Yeah, marching in three area. Um Trent Morris and uh Sergeant Higgins and Hookie. Uh uh who else do we have? Yeah, Major Keating as an OC. Yep, Major Keating was OC, and we had that um uh Adam Finlay, I think he was the CO at the time. Yeah. Um what a cock he turned out to be. Yeah, hello. Yeah, hardest man in the army though, if you ask.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:04

Which was wild because you know, when we first get in. Bro, I thought he was a man. Yeah, everyone thought he was like the fucking bees and ease.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:09

You know, to be fair, and I'll say this because it's just famous to say it now, but I didn't have any issues with that guy, except one time when I had to go to D FCE for another story, we'll get to that. But um uh yeah, look, in my book, he was he seemed to be fine. It's only later on down the track when you when you learn more and you know more and you do more you realise who's on who's on our team and who's not. But yeah, Keating man, he was he was XSR dude. Uh I remember because on Anzac Day one day he had a he had a he had a um he had a medal and said special forces on it. I was like, whoa, what the fuck, what is this? And I found out later what I was like, submariner something, something. But um, yeah, dude, he was he was a weapon, um, older guy, but just that he had that he had that special forces ticker in him, you know. Like um one example was like when I was a young dig, mate, we were doing this pack march, and none of us knew about it, but Alpha because he was in Alpha Company, it was you had that you had that intercompany rivalry all the time, and um Alpha Company by name, Alpha Company by um by brand and and and virtue. So we did this pack march, we did 40 kilometre pack march. I remember after that, that's a like I never even knew the capacity. I didn't know we were capable of that kind of shit. And um made afterwards the week after I had a chit, I could wear uh ug boots because the bottoms of my feet, my bottoms of my feet were so bruised and the whole bottoms of my feet were black, like I'd been hit with a cane across the bottom of the feet. Yeah, um, probably a combination of um shit boots and not being prepared for it, yeah. Um, you know, we obviously do our stomps every Friday. 20 clickers were a regular. That was a regular thing, yeah. Yeah, it was, yeah. So that that's 20 clickers. Yeah, that was like a Friday thing. Yeah. I remember Trent Morris used to be um uh looking into his crystal ball, Private Burgess. Uh give me a um give me a reading on where you should fire a 66 if uh APC is moving right to left at 20 kilometres an hour while you're pack marching. So bros were just drilling you with yeah with like um light armored warriors and you know what what you should be doing if you you know just just really great deep understanding. Those those those platoon sergeants at Alpha Company were just really um they loved their job.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:16

They did, didn't they?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:16

And they knew that the guys that they were training, because this is you know, Timor days, I guess, and then they'll prepare that. I guess they knew more about the geopolitical space than we did and what was coming down the line. I mean, you can't prepare for I mean September 11 had already happened like that, so I guess they were just tooling up and trying to make everybody aware that potentially you could be in the Middle East before you know it, which evidently became true pretty fast. Yeah, but um yeah, mate, those um those guys were great, the leaders were great, and and even the boys that were in Alpha Company for me, um, you know, I um a good friend of mine at the time and during that period pets, me and him were thickest thieves there for a lot of years. Um he had a similar sort of um reputation to me. I think that's why we were drawn to each other. Um, you know, this is where I met the fly fisherman, the uh I met the I met the famous fly fisherman for the first time. We were in the second building in Alpha Company, second deck, and I was um I was closest to the I was closest to the ladder there, and uh I think it was K16, K17. I was in 16, he was in 17, so we were neighbours for many years. Um yeah, mate, so that's where me and him kicked off. What year was that, 2004? So yeah, I've been friends with him for 22 years. That's how far back we go. Um uh the bloody Scotty Ryder, he was he was in the first building at um Alpha Company. He uh that guy needs no introduction, so everybody sort of knew that guy. And who he is, we sort of try and deny if we know him now. Now that he's a bloody, now that he's a bestseller, mate, we try and steer clear of him. But he um mate, he was always good for a laugh. And if you ever felt bad about yourself, you just have to think about Ryder and you immediately felt better. So um, you know, and and a guy that's no longer with us, uh, he was my number one rifleman in my section, he's Percy McDonald. Um mate, that guy took me under his wing, uh, and he taught me, he was a senior, he was a senior soldier within within three area, not just in the alpha company, but in I think he was a recon and he he he had bloody a lot of boxes ticked.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:10

Um and you know, classic army, they mismanaged him and he ended up getting out anyway. But mate, I I he taught me more about soldiering and how to you know be an effectful uh member of a infantry section uh team, better than better than anyone I could pretty much put my put my name to. Um also in that basket were um Tolly, Nathan Tolman. He um he's been a big influence in my because he was my seco. And then um Slats as well. I won't say his first name because I mean he might still be in, but slats, Tolly, and those boys, Ian Mason, he um he was my two IC may so mate. Fucking very um very unassuming dude, but a very, very good soldier. Come from Northern Battalions. He obviously woke up to himself and come down to the mighty parachute battalion. Um, wanted to become airborne, wanted to become a real man, so down he came. And um the Brody Kerr. Brody Kerr. Um Secco and Mortars. Yeah, good guy, man. I um me and him because his missile is from Canberra and I used to go back to Canberra um pretty often, so we used to carpool or we'd meet up in Canberra and go to um Jack Races down there. And he was really great, mate. I believe he's out in West New South Wales now with his missile and there, got a little bit of the farm life going on.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:20

Spent a lot of time with Brady, loves his lawns.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:22

A lot of time loves his lawns, yeah, absolute fucking legend.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:26

Also shape my career.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:27

Yeah, yeah. But you know what? I I just I I I want to take this opportunity because I don't know how many I'm gonna have in my life, but just to really um let these people know, regardless of my attitude and and and like I guess uh level of aggression that you made me aware of last night when we're having dinner, I I didn't realise I was that outwardly aggressive, but um uh anybody that I've wronged over the years, I'll I'll have a quick, quick apology now. I don't I'm not actually gonna kill anyone. Um I'm not even gonna I don't even know what I said, but mate, uh look, there's so many guys out there that that have. That have made myself, my career better at three. And as I said before at 202 Commando, I was I was a better soldier for the guys that were my leaders. Like the guys that actually had me in their teams, I was working up to their level. You know, I was always um I never saw myself as good enough. I was always, I suffer that imposter syndrome, so like probably like we all do. But I think that's one of the attributes that you need to be a high performing individual. Um, but yeah, I can't thank the guys that I've worked with enough that made me better pretty much every day.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:35

Yeah that I used to pull a uniform on. There's people in that that company for us, you know, the trigger trigger trends and the Yeah, Matt McCready.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:43

Yeah, McCready. I don't want to tell another black stories, but there was a time there was a story. Oh okay, I'm gonna tell this story. There was a there was a job on, it was like a recon qualifying course or something like that. Anyway, I won't tell it as well as I can. So you probably want to get trigger. Hey, trigger, come on the podcast. Stop in it, stop doing it.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:00

Tell us about that camera you used to drive around with. Not Camry, the Solika, sorry.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:04

Put your put your big boy pants on trigger and get on here, man. I'm doing it, so you've got to do it now. Um, but anyway, I'll I'll make it short. But basic part of this deal was um in the target pack, whatever. The only way you could um I'm gonna butcher this, but they had to get down to RMC and deliver a message to the you know, the the XO or something down at RMC because there was like sensitive information. It was only it was a real world um exercise anyway. They said um the only way that you could qualify on this course is by getting this letter to the da da da. So it was designed that they wouldn't, it was designed that they wouldn't succeed so they could go into like um actions after capture and and like uh interrogation training, stuff like that. Lo and behold, these boys, they um they broke away from uh the ambush and they, I think whether they stole a car or they ended up in somebody's car, you know, driving down the highway to Lake George, pulled up at RMC, got into the um got into where they needed to go and delivered this message. And old mate's like, Who the fuck are you guys? And RPs got called and MPs got called and they just basically said um you know name date um name date number, and they were just like, What the fuck is going on? Okay, boys, index, we don't know what's going on here. So long and short, they actually said, Yeah, we're from Three Row, this is part of our package. And then they um they called the the guys back at Three Arrow and said, Um, are you guys missing some dudes? I'm like, Yeah, what are you talking about? But yeah, these boys actually broke away from the ambush and did what they were supposed to do, just uh adapt and overcome, man. Steal a car if you got to. But yeah, I butchered that probably, but you need to get trigger on here or McCready and they can tell the proper story. I think we're gonna be able to do that. But what I'm why I said that is the caliber of dudes at the low levels, like we're up that that's like digger level, that's like Lance Jack level at most, just going full noise, full noise with what they you just buy in, you believe in it. Yeah, three re there's a big belief system there.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:52

100%. Do you remember uh the Alpha Company dining night? It would have been early 2005. Yeah, probably. I might have been away. No, you were there. There's a photo. Okay, yeah, there's photos. I I've seen some photos of all of us. Too many TBIs. It was wild, but obviously we're all lids then, and it was fucking madness. I remember that. And then obviously, then we went on CADA up to Townsville.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:14

Ah, was that uh Shotwater Bay, yeah?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:17

No, it was we went to Townsville. It's Townsville. Yeah, okay. Explain. It would have been like mid 2005. This might have felt yeah, this might feel because like I I I remember I had Bowlsey as my two IC, Loopy as my uh secko. Good guys, Mick Albright, yeah. Uh in my section, Presto. Presto. And I remember I actually funny story about Presto. I remember we're because you you went to Iraq with Presto in 2006.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:45

Gigantic ass.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:46

I remember sitting on we were sitting on this feature, and I was turning 20 or 21. They did a birthday for me like at midnight. Put me on loopy put me on picket. Good guy. Next day this helicopter came down and black hawk flood it. Uh, had to drop off supplies, and I remember Presto had his all his shit. Then uh first thing Loopy's I think Balzi came around and's like gun's like fucking pack everything up. There's a hilo coming in, make sure everything's under your pack and packed away, squared away. Yeah, yeah. Presto.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:10

Presto, man. He was a he was a hand grenade that guy.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:14

Poof Matt went flying and everything went in there.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:16

Mate, he you know what he was? He was he was the the soldier that shouldn't have been a soldier. He was so good at what he was because he was a pretty accomplished footy player. Yeah. Rugby rugby, yeah. We went to single together. Yeah, okay. Well he mate, he um I think he had a a stint with Western Force back in the day, or he was in the recruitment stream there somewhere. Him, like my best mate, Ben Jones, they both and it's funny because they both know each other and they catch up regularly, both because they're rah-rah boys. Um, but both of those dudes probably should have been playing professional football. But um, whatever the case was, they ended up in the army and we all ended up together. But um, yeah, but I think that team environment too, it just bleeds into us. And Presto was your best mate, he'd always have your back, no matter what. And cluster maybe sometimes, but not really. He just he was just really good at identifying what was important and what wasn't. And um a lot of the bullshit soldiering stuff wasn't important to him. He just wanted to do it, like me, he just wanted to do the job and get it done and hang out with the boys.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:10

Yeah, have fun, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:12

Yeah, right. Uh obviously, mate, from there, living the thirdane life, mate, bit of para course action. How did you go getting on that para course, mate? Because again, like it's three weeks of it, it is three weeks of fucking hell.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:24

It hurts, yeah. So I was fortunate when I got to the when I got to three, there was like a six month, because at the unit you have to wait till there's enough people to fill the trip out, uh, to fill the uh course out. Um, and fortunately for me, I was there for about two weeks and the poor and and I got panelled for the course. Um, so I was destined to be no longer a crap hat. Um and yeah, so after I marched in, got settled, got um put on the put on the ticket for for para course and away we went, mate. So I was about two weeks. Um yeah, off to Nara we went. Had to pass a um had to do a 3.2 down there that I wasn't aware of. Again, I'm amazing at running. Yeah, but um PFA. PFA, that's it. But yeah, everything physical was great. The running used to drag. But um got there, mate, and ended up um having no dramas with the para course. And I've said this previously, but I've been where I grew up, I'd never been on an aeroplane before. And I did all the um did all the uh dry drills in the aircraft mock-up and stuff like that, going down the zip line. And um, and then up in the air, we went in the old. I think we jumped caribou to start with. Maybe I'm wrong.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:26

Yeah, I can't remember.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:27

Yeah, I'm not sure. But though no, you know what?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:30

I was in a hurricane.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:30

Yeah, I think I think I did a couple of caribou jumps to start with because I remember the extreme vertical takeoff. Because they're like they're like a letterbox with wings. Uh so yeah, we were doing like these slow drive and like almost vertical takeoff, and then get up there and um over that three weeks, I'm not sure how many jumps we had, but yeah, so the first couple of times I'd ever been in an aeroplane, I had to get thrown out the side, which a lot of people think that's pretty gnarly, but for me, I had no experience. But how I how I know that I was supposed to be a paratrooper was there was one time where the landing gear had a malfunction in the air, it wouldn't go, they wouldn't something it wouldn't come down because we had high winds or something up there, so the jump got called. So they circled around, they said, Oh boys, we um we need you to pull the floor up in the back of the plane and and manually release the hydraulics because the the something's gone wrong and the and the wheels aren't going down. So what the fuck are you talking about? I was like, I'm not doing this, man. I can't land like the whole landing thing was fucking freaked me out, especially if you've got a manual, manual landing gear situation. But um, yeah, we got the gear down and it was she was a rocky, she came in pretty rocky, man, sideways and up and down. And I've I said to myself, man, next time I'm not like landing for me is a no-go. Like I'm going out. I don't give a fucking give a fuck, man. I'm going out the door, wind or not, I don't care where I yeah. So landing landing's always been a bit of a sucky thing for me um that time, but after I got used to it after that, fine commercial and whatever else. So um yeah, I realized that the old uh corners planes aren't the same as the old caribou planes.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:58

Yeah, yeah, me and Presto are on the same paracource, and I remember we had to jump. Our first jump was at Wagga. So we took off from uh Albatross. Uh no jump because the winds are too high or something. Well, something happened. So they flew to Wagga and both of us landed on the fucking runway. Yeah, first sput in on fucking tarmac. Nice and uh nice and welcome, welcome to parachuting, nice and soft.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:24

Yeah, man. Uh look, I don't care what anyone says about uh the Ben Four swing, you know, all that shit they tell you. 1063 you have landed. Roll your ankles over, then roll your knees over, then roll your hips over. Bro, you just you're coming in at six or seven metres a second. And I'll lock it in. Yeah, like for you and a couple of the bigger boys, man. I used to laugh at you guys because fucking screaming in. I had all pretty good landings, man. I was only a bit of a I mean, I was um I was pretty light. When I say light, I was probably 75-80 kilos until I got onto the the Camberators Bananas there for a few years and put on some proper weight. But I um yeah, man, those landings they never got easier. You just sort of you just sort of tried to you lucked out a few times. I I never got actually injured. I got my bell rung a few times because I um I hit my head in the rollover, but um by and large, body was pretty good. Never hurt my ankles or knees or anything like that, which I was fortunate for because that that can ruin your chance to get on the trip.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:18

Yeah, which you which you know, like as a paratroop, and that's probably one of the reasons why they took it away because every jump it was someone there was 10% dudes fucking broken.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:29

And the thing is too, the costs for the different you know, if they were all Rhapsole, if they were all Rapsul jumps, totally different things, but because those roundies, man, we had different iterations of roundies over the years. T10-D. T10B-D. Yeah. And then all the bloody new ones and this what a joke. It was just a fucking butt um yeah, man. I am out of the sky. Yeah, you just fall, you're just uh it's a managed, it's a managed fall. Lock it in. Yeah, it's a managed floor.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:53

Log it in. Yeah. Uh yeah, right. So from there, mate, what's happening within the unit? This is 2004, 2005. Team Wars uh starting to no teamwork starting to end at that stage, 2004-ish. Uh Iraq has kicked off 2003, their March, uh February-March invasion. SASR have obviously done their time in Afghan, started to transition into the Iraq role. Secret's kicked off in four of the infantry battalions, and what what's it what what's going around the battalion? Obviously, I'm asking for the listener, I understand what was going on because I was fucking there, but tell me what was going on within the battalion.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:33

Uh mate, so there was the the um the whispers are getting around that there's going to be a company from three heading over um to Iraq, yeah. So there was so when I went back to and I was talking about slats and tolly before, um, those boys went over on the f one of the first, one of the first sect debts. I can't remember what it was, but they did one of the first ones where it was real It was 2003. Yeah, okay. So 2003, yeah. So I remember those Secret 3, yeah. Pretty sure it was. Early days. Yeah. So the good thing about being in these sections was these guys had the experience. We were going back. Though eventually we found out it was Alf Company was going again. Well, not again, but we were going. And the good thing about it was these boys had already been and seen, and it had evolved in those years that you know it was only a couple like two, two years or two and a half years since they'd been there, which was crazy back then because no one was going anywhere. Um Bill Boone, you know, he bloody won't wear his medals because he didn't get to go anywhere, poor bastard. He can't became a Queen's Corporal, I think, in the end.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:31

That was the talk, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:32

Yeah, some I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:33

Everyone knows Bill and he's fucking floor fucking polisher. Yeah, bro.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:37

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:38

But I can't, yeah. But I um if if you had your hands on that floor polisher, I think everyone in that batane did. At the guard room at one stage. Yeah, yeah. He made you work for it, man.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:49

Yeah, but so I um yeah, so slats and tolly, mate, they'd um they'd been and seen it all before, so was Percy, and we found out where we were going, so we started gearing up, and it was great to have those guys in your corner because they're sort of they're gonna lay your fears for you. Not that I was not that any of us were scared because that's what we were champing at the bit. All of us wanted to go because we all sort of knew that it was this was the big leagues, or what we thought were the big leagues at the time in the RAR. And then um also it was a it was a cash cow, bro. Like you're you're a young dude, you're getting paid grunt wages, which are good. Um, but you know yourself you're gonna go over and um get some of this deployment play and get a lot of experience while you're over there and just experience it. Like that's why you join, isn't it? You you join, and evidently I found out later that you that you join, that's where you you're a war fighter and you go to war. Like uh the Rayoch Ranger days are gone, and now I'm now I'm in the now I'm in the airborne, bro. We're going, we're going off to run up.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:40

You go from a green beret to a maroon beret, not that Rayhawk had a beret, but it was black, was it? I don't know. Frisbee. And just quickly for the listener, Percy McDonald passed away two years ago. Yep. His brother. Yes, absolute fucking gangster. Yeah, Mervyn McDonald. Merv McDonald, good mate of mine. Uh passed away in Afghanistan 30th of August 2012 with uh Nate Gallagher.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:03

Yeah, so my my interactions with Merv were through I said him before Brody Kerr. So we all lived down in the Shire, Ingadine, uh down that way. Um when you're allowed to move off base, I moved down the Cronulla and bloody Merv McDonald was down there. We had this little uh surf surf crew, none of us could surf, but it was the fly fisherman Curry, Merv, and myself. And um mate, on the weekends and stuff like that, we'd go down and have a bit of a paddle. We probably look like we were drowning to the the Cronulla locals, but we had a good time, mate. Merv was uh just a just a really good uh bloke and an extremely uh qualified soldier. Um I remember doing enemy party at three once. Um I was myself, Merv McDonald, I think it was bloody Sammy Evans, Benny Arnold, and we were out just playing op four for um might have been Recon again, just out the back, and we had all the bloody the enemy cams on and shit like that. And Merv was basically the the T the TL and uh and I was his two IC for that. But I mean it was we weren't actually doing any anything of anything, we're just walking around and blasting blanks at Recon Patoon and breaking contact and making them work. So yeah, that was my experience with Merv. And then later on when he um when he came over to two, I was there and he came in and it was just great to see his big smiling face there, mate. The guy I don't think he's ever said about I don't think I've ever heard him say a bad word about anyone and his brother Percy too. Well Percy said a bit about the head head hierarchy, but they deserve that. But yeah, those two boys, mate, they were um very influential, not just to me, I'm sure to many people. Um bless their mother, mate, because she raised two absolute gentlemen and and and great humans. They um yeah, I can't I can't really say much more other than they were great, they were great humans, man. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:51

Yeah, mate, yeah, Merv mate. Spent a lot of time with Merv and fuck I'm sure his dog Nuggets up there with him eating the motorcycle seats and he'd have a uh he'd have a scooter seat in his guts, probably still drowning with two tennis balls in his mouth. Just quickly for the listener, there's one time me and Merv went to we both had uh Merv had this rip-off Rottweiler. I had an actual Rottweiler, his dog and his name was Nugget. Absolutely the dumbest dog. Like Merv, pinnacle soldier, his dog, it was like a little retarded dog. We went to the dog park and threw tennis balls in for our dogs, but Nuggets gone for both of them, got both of them in his mouth and started drowning because the water was going to his mouth. So Merv's had the strip down. This is the Georges River. There's fucking bull sharks and dead bodies, pollution, pollution. Merv's ducked in there to get this dog and mate, oh, it was just it was just multiple things with with with Merv. Obviously, and like we talk about we used to go surfing all the time, and then Paul DeGelder got fucking mauled by made a joke about him today.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:54

Yeah, I um but Paulie boy, he was uh I think he was alpha company boy as well. He was, yeah, yeah. And then he um I remember he wanted to go to Puss, and I remember when I was trying to get my my my my fitness up at three because I didn't want to be I didn't want to let the teams down. So I used to on weekends because when I was living on base, you were pretty isolated out there at Hosbury, so I used to just rep the gym. And uh I remember Paul was always cutting the laps in the pool, and bro was a fish, you know. And um that's how that's how I met um Paul, and you know, we're not mates or anything, but uh I just did I have the vivid memory of him, and then the next time I heard about him was his fucking shark shark.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:27

He was hanging out with fucking Will Smith and on Shark Week.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:30

Oh mate, good dude.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:31

You know that it was actually at the origin, you see that he was on the origin TV.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:35

Was that the one where um Ethan Strange ran a clinic?

unknown 1:22:37

Oh, get fucked.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:38

I think so.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:40

But yeah, mate, uh Merv, uh the McDonald brothers. Um if anyone knows them, you definitely it's one of those things like Nico, not Nico, uh Robo said, you know, when when Brett Wood was killed, everyone's got a good word about the person when the after they're dead. Yeah, that's true. But fuck man, like Merv and Percy, especially Merv, like it was just it could be the most sour fucking point in your career. You could be sitting in a in a in a in a stage freaking pit, covered in water and mud, and you look at Merv and he'd just smile. He's like a little Buddha. You'd be like, nah, it's not that bad. But he used to be worse, but he'd be like, No, it's pretty bad.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:13

Yeah, and and then you would just have like death metal running all the time, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:16

Ever more until yeah, bro. That's all I got onto that. So did I, yeah. Curry was the same. Yeah, it was just that little cohort, man. That was a good, that was a good time. I got some of my fondest memories of um at three IR. I mean, especially when we did that shortwater bay job, um, like that major exercise that we do every few years.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:33

Um, but yeah, man, I um yeah, three was great. I made the army rugby team, I'm sort of digressing now, but I made the army rugby team, uh rugby league team, and got to do a lot of travelling around playing rugby league because um I wasn't great, but I was pretty handy with the football. Hanging around Patrick Inskip. That's right. Wow, what a good dude he was. Again, he's another example of should have been playing proper football. I think he blew his knee out or whatever, but he uh I think he was a para eels um recruit system guy. Just a Larric and just a Larry, yeah. He hates the pity, hated a beard, but he um wherever he is, mate, Patty Inskip, we haven't forgot about you, mate. You're a good player. Skipper, he's a good fella, mate.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:07

Uh yeah, so um just back to your uh the timeline here. We're talking about Iraq. So Iraq pops off. This is the fur, you know, second deployment for the battalion outside of Timor. Uh this is 2006 though, so this is where Timor kicks off again as well. So the whole I'm on the Orbat for Iraq, I do my shoulder, I'm off the Orbat for Iraq, and now I'm centred uh fucking retard platoon, linger platoon, and uh the whole battalion is deploying. So the majority of the battalion go to Timor, yep. Uh ready react. You know, everyone was deployed within 24 hours, and then obviously there was still the alpha company that was going to Iraq as sec debt.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:45

Yeah, well mate, I'll even go back a step there before um before Iraq was getting raised up, there was that Solomon Islands trip depending on the biggest. That's right, yeah, Sollies in 2005. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:52

So Soly uh Jamie Clark.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:54

Yeah, that's right. Well, interesting story. I remember I was talking to about my cousins before, and um in that before Solomon the Solomon Islands gig got worked up, my um my cousin actually took his life um in the ACT, and I remember I was on guard with um I forget his name now, but Robbie Johns might have been uh yeah, maybe. Anyway, long story short, I found out about that when I was on guard and basically told guard commander, bro, I gotta I've got to bounce, had some spam shit happen, I've got to go, and basically just jumped in the truck and and went back to Canberra. Um why I tell this story is because um I missed out on the Solomon Islands trip because of that. My my platoon commander gave me a bit of a grace period and he was like, hey mate, do you reckon you're gonna come back for this? And I said, Oh look, no, I'm not gonna. And at that point, I was actually because it it was such a it was such a it was such it had such an effect on me. I can't tell you how close I was to these guys because I just won't be able to give you the the the value through words, but my cousin, he um he was everything to me, and when he passed, I sort of was just like, fuck man, like growing up the way I did, I've lost the guy that I deemed was closest to me. Um, you know, and again, when I go back to um you know trauma and all these kinds of things in my life, it just sort of follows me down the line. Um so I just sort of took it like that, missed out on Soly's, uh, sorry, yeah, Sollies, and then um was on rear details for a period while those guys were over there, and I was sort of worried, I was like, fuck, I'm gonna miss out on Iraq now. But evidently I was I was looked after by um by support company and I was actually got a few little ticks in boxes down there from Stompa. He um he took a liking to me um because I was mates with Pets. Pets was down at the support company as well, and he put in the good word, and a lot of the support company guys from DFSW and that they um they looked after me over that period, and then um evidently when the guys came back we started spinning up for Iraq and away we went.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:44

Yeah, and just quickly, uh 10th of March uh 2005 is when Jamie Clark uh lost his life in uh Sully Solomon Islands.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:51

Yeah, good guy too, very well regarded, great friends with Ryder. Recon platoon. Yeah, Recon platoon. Those recon boys are three men, they're tight. Shave their legs all the time, but they're tight, man. Use the same razor, yeah, yeah. Okay, so you go, that's nice.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:04

So you spin up for Iraq maids, again, a whole bunch of notable names that you know we all served with. And uh, yeah, this is your first overseas deployment and the biggest. You know, this is yeah, welcome to this is the you know, uh 2006 Iraq is a fucking war zone.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:21

Yeah, Baghdad is a war zone, and it's and it's crazy because um, as you know yourself, you that's just what you're doing. So you're going over there, and um, I remember um yeah, man, I was psyched. I was really psyched just to get beyond that or bat and get and getting over there, get to it. Uh I remember flying into um Kuwait or is that where Aba, is that AMAB, Kuwait? No, it's uh anyway, flew into Kuwait, Kuwaiti Airport, um, and that's where we first started our pre country briefs and all getting all our gears, gear issued to us. Um and just I couldn't believe Al Minhad. Al Minhaad, correct. I um I couldn't believe the American war machine. about you've heard alley bro like you've loved it like you've heard about it you've read about it you've seen it in books but until you experience it and I'm made they build cities mate and I'm the guy military cities bro and I'm the guy that came from the mountains you know the population where I grew up would have been like 200 300 people uh very isolated so when you like for me the transition was mountains Canberra Sydney and then the Middle East and it's just it it blows my mind yeah so like you said you go down the alley mate it uh at uh was it camp wherever it was there but there's there's Puppet John's there's Green Beans Coffee there's Hungry Jack's there's KFC and I remember we were on this bus we're on this bus from the airport all the way out to this base man it just seemed to go on forever and going vivid memories of going down those um those dual carriageways or quad quad quad carriageways at uh Kuwait on our way out and bros are just seeing cars getting wrapped around light poles and just it's fucking crazy yeah just the the sensory overload of being in the Middle East for the first time uh that you know everything from the heat to just the just what you're seeing like you it's almost unbelievable that it was there and being so young too man I think I was uh what was I was 20 I think I was 20 I was 20 when I went there just just 20 wasn't long 20 and then um yeah but the commercial zone down in um kuwait was was was mind blowing and one of the good things we did before we went into Iraq was we did we did these because the IED threat was so wild like it was um anything you'd ever hear of mainly was IED uh roadside bombs and DFPs um and that's where they like they were learning all these new tricks and tradecraft from from the Iranians and and other dudes like high level AQ guys and just the absolute worst of the worst at the time because it was around the time uh I think Saddam had been destabilized or he'd been he'd been got by then I think yeah he has yeah yeah he'd been got and then um the the the country just turned into absolute what like the wildest of wild west you could probably have at the time um but yeah mate so we did these in before country briefs and IED alleys so we used to go down these um these these EOD guys used to make these mock-up um like like laneways of multiple IED threats where you'd have to go down and identify um because if you're doing vehicle movement once you get into Baghdad itself you had to identify potential IED threat or um or things like that and used to do 5 and 25 drills and stuff like that. So they do them they do a mock-up out in the desert we had to go and zero our weapons out in the desert and we do these mock up um ID um strikes on the way out there and we had to do our practice and our TTPs for that. So I remember that pretty vividly and the EOD guys the American dudes you know a couple of them are wearing legs and shit like guys with no hands and like it's it's very very real like and as a 20 year old and I mentioned before I've seen a lot of dead bodies and stuff but it was a different sort of concept like you're going over here and these guys are like amputees lived it and they're like faces are burnt off and shit and they're just like mate this is what you're going to be going into or potentially going into so I think there might have been a bit of over a bit of overtraining there but they'll what they were getting at was you need to be hypervigilant you need to be switched all the time and um this became evident when we started doing resup runs from the D's from the green zone out route Irish out to um out to the pickup and then back and route Irish for anybody and you'd be able to tell this because you've been to Iraq a shitload so is Robo um Eddie Robinson Route Irish man was was it was the most dangerous passage in the world and that was the only link from the uh Baghdad International Airport to Baghdad itself. Yeah man so I remember um which obviously the the you know the insurgents knew that yeah yeah well and it was easy pickings really exactly right yeah um especially with the US you know up and down there and their fucking convoys what's mad what's actually mad about that there was the level of armour that wasn't there like as in like the the protection in vehicles wasn't there and um I can imagine if the bush I mean the bushes I don't even think the bushes were there at that time we we were rolling we were rolling around in labs because they were the they were the safest option but um yeah mate so the IED threat was extreme all the time and that's what was drummed into us um but yeah I remember I remember the EOD guys just going mate it's it's it's it's a real thing and you better be switched onto it because um yeah and then obviously um what else off to Iraq we go we um and this is a security uh sec debt as in short but a security detachment uh basically just uh providing you're like an uber driver for for government diplomat officials yeah diplomat officials and any kind of uh yeah exactly it's exactly that the um when I was over there there was a two there was two dips that we were looking after at the time uber drivers with 25 mil cannons yeah yeah and and mag 58 and and and minimize and stuff like that um but mate the yeah I guess I guess the threat was uh as real as you wanted it to be but the I guess the moment that you got complacent and thought that it wasn't real is when you sort of found out um but yeah mate that rude Irish run um after we finished up in Kuwait I think I think I've from memory my insertion into Baghdad was via Blackhawk so first blackhawk my first black hawk trip from um from somewhere to from Baghdad green zone landed on the landed on the helipad there and stepped through the big gates and wow what a what an experience that was. I remember coming in um and getting inside the city limits and just like looking out pretty vast pretty vast city and just seeing like you know the black smoke coming up from tie fires or checkpoints and and um you know looking down from the bird's eye you'd see um you know you'd see an American convoy moving at a rate of knots with fucking sirens blaring and you you hear a shot rep from somewhere and it was just like it was hot it was it was you didn't see it like it was just everything that you could think it would be it was yeah and I had no ability to um understand it more than what I was seeing for the first time. Yeah but um yeah as you said mate sected um I think from memory um I spoke to Tully a couple of weeks back trying to get the details for how long that trip was I remember that they were trying what the government was trying to do at the time they were trying to make the trips longer than six months because there was like a they were having some kind of issue with family blah I look I I won't do it the service that it deserves but I um I know our trip was I think in in the range of nine to ten months maybe the long one man I um and when it came to the Christmas break there was an opportunity for guys to go home or guys to stay and I put my hand up to stay purely because there was guys with families and stuff like that um that wanted to go home for Christmas. I can't remember the exact details but I was one of the guys that stayed on and um yeah man so I I maxed out that trip as long as I could I at by the end of the trip man I was sort of like I didn't I didn't want to leave because it was just like felt like I was at home like everything was the the the pressure of society and the civilian world had basically evaporated man because you had such a good routine you just like you do your do your work during the day and knockoff time you go to the gym. It depends if you reverse cycle or not but um you go to the gym and just bloody you go out and be a soldier all day long. Yeah yeah but my first when I first got there Anzac Cove it was called we um so there was two locations that the platoons would be in so Anzac Cove is where all the lavs used to live and the up and vehicles and stuff like that. All of our barracks and stuff were there and um that's where I first had my encounter with like American soldiers face to face the 10th mountain were there they're pretty pretty well now known around the world and there was a gym there that was donated by Arnie Schwarzenegger um but yeah mate I uh I had a great time at the cove that's I was in Tolly's platoon at that time um I've talked about the Rude Irish runs but when we were doing the diplomatic security from the cove we used to go and uh we'd had the drive through the green zone to the old bath party building or the Ministry of Defence building. Yeah and the funny thing about that was across like there was like the border where these T walls were the border there you could literally see over the fence where we'd park up under the palm trees every day and we'd have one guy go inside and stay outside the room and we'd work on shifts that way so we'd walk our arse over in that bloody stupid body armor that they used to make us wear and then you'd stand inside the bloody Ministry of Defence all day just sweating because it was so hot no air conditioning but you could look across I guess you would call the green zone border and there'd be like there'd be people moving around on an old shelled out building and um you just your mind would play games on with you because you'd be thinking you know is that a sniper hide or whatever because you just buy in man like you don't know and and part of the training we got in Kuwait was don't ever stand still for too long.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:38

Yeah hard target.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:39

Yeah hard target but like I'd even when I when when I came home and I still do it these days now is is you sort of the way I can explain it is you move in like a figure of eight if you're standing still you move in a box you'd move in like a box sort of movement or you move in like a figure of eight and what they told us was because the sniper threat was so high because it's a 360 range over there pretty much um and urban environment buildings you just you didn't really know when you were going to get clipped if you were going to get clipped. So that that psychological threat I the way I differentiate between Iraq and Afghanistan was the psychological threat was a lot higher I believe in Iraq than it was in Afghanistan. 100% and urban environment yeah but it also it also um it m it it changed not not changed guys but it changed the way you sort of perceive threat yeah and you know I'm already pretty highly strung for threat anyway but it's like yeah Iraq was um Iraq was a different beast because like I said before the IED threat different environment different people yeah different people built up city built up city Baghdad is a built-up city it was very um it was very like uh like modernised city too is it like I'm I remember like footpaths are made out of like marble and street lights and plumbing and you know you do your trip down to the cross swords and be the tourist like um like pretty much everyone I guess if you've been to Iraq you go down and have a look where everyone's been there for a photo. Yeah yeah definitely they're the only ones I got left pretty much thanks Athos but um mate yeah so you know what I'm talking about there. I uh I remember kicking it with Iraqi lads at the Ministry of Defence um pretty nice guys all the foreign intelligence guys were in there too so it was good to sort of start knocking around with different agencies and getting to know the layer of the land a bit um but one thing I hated about the cove was that when we used to have to go on picket so you have to do a night picket every night but it was up a 10-story building or nine eight or nine 10-story building but we built this hide up on top of the roof and you used to have to sit up in this like little um sea bees hut pretty much it was just like this little timber framed had zero overhead protection. So I don't even understand why we'll make go up there because if we had got rocketed or morted or something we would have made which was on the regular which was regular and I'll go into that because um you remember and anyone that's been there you remember how and I didn't know until I started doing this job was in Iraq there's the old you see the World War II videos of blimps and shit like that all the time. Well and now I know well in Iraq there was all these blimps that were tethered to the ground but they acted as like um sound magnifiers or um you know basically shot rep indicators and why we were why this became apparent was when we were sitting up in this in this hide um you'd you we would get mortared or someone would get mortared but you could you could you could locate the degree where the noise come from in a 360 degree compass and then you could triangulate the location of that shot to you know um a pretty close distance and why this became apparent was and I think on my deployment in 2000 about sector 10 we actually got a we actually got a uh a letter from USASOC of somebody that was over there in high level with the with the Yanks um congratulating or thanking us for effectively enabling 250 or more successful raids based off our shot reps um from that position alone. So uh which I thought was pretty cool because all we were doing was basically giving a a a loose target indication and then it was getting triangulated through these through these blimp locations and then they were able to effect raids on these places that were they were mortaring dudes in the green zone or rocketing guys with 107s in the green zone. And I think it was the trip before us that actually got a rocket strike on the on the uh accommodation at the cove. Yeah and um I think Tully spoke about it on his body yeah yeah okay he's the one to talk to man but um yeah so that's what that was always a it was a compounding threat for us but one one good thing I remember from that um obviously got really strong legs from going up and down there carrying that armour and because I was a gunner man I was I was humping the weight up there all the time 58 uh minimi I was on the 58 at the uh at the embassy but I was on the minimi at the cove so yeah mate I'll go back when I first got the three I was on the gun and then it was like the lids go on the gun and then later on it was like the most experienced guys go on the gun so I was on the gun again. Yeah and then I've but look I've been a machine gunner from day one and and I'm yeah just I'm built for the gun I think yeah I was too yeah yeah but um mate the one cool thing that I remember and I used to I had footage of it but I don't have any more um I didn't realise at the time but it was Delta Force that were doing like little bird uh training on neighbouring roofs so they they'd do their landing and then they did off and do their their entry on like a an exit door on the top of the building there and I remember I remember vividly these guys rolling in I was like fuck who these dudes but they were doing like um compound DA and clearance in mock-ups and obviously they were then launching on from um they were launching on from there to do actual real world targeting um I remember I was just like Bonaville every time you saw those guys operating and it was just like they're not wearing uniforms. It was like the old school Delta guys you know yeah um but I thought that was pretty cool and this is where it was sort of starting to really pique my interest to special forces and there was a guy that I was on um platoon with uh Johnny F. He um he and I basically decided later on in that trip that we're going to put our paperwork in when we get home and attempt four hour selection um and on Rockle me and him actually linked up on Rockle which is the break period in your deployment you get to go home or you get to fly to Europe or whatever. So um yeah man that was pretty cool. I remember the shopkeeper that used to operate a little shop within the Anzac Cove there he used to sell like shaving cream and different things. He actually got abducted by I guess Al Qaeda and um was tortured and his family got kidnapped and stuff like that. And at that like sort of at the beginning of the trip because that was like his role but when he he has you used to have to go outside the green zone to go home but he got he got pinched and um and tortured and I remember when he came back to work he this was like six months later or something he had like little bits of his fingers missing and he had like scars on his body where he was getting tortured and and like uh he had like electrocution marks on him where they'd been torturing him trying to get information about um about the coalition soldiers was just a bit of an eye-opening experience I guess because um yeah you hear about it but until you see it you don't really you don't really know mate um what else yeah the yeah so moving on to the the Australian embassy mate this is where it gets a little spicy I suppose yeah yeah especially for the plata yeah well I I um yeah I guess so we were uh we're at the Australian embassy and um I changed platoons at that point because I had a little situation with my old platoon but instead of sending me home they moved me over to the other platoon which was great I'm grateful for that but um I had moved into this new platoon and we were taking care of the chute at the Australian embassy which was also the main chute for the 10 cash hospital at the time so it was the main trauma centre for Baghdad and surrounds for that time. So anytime there was like a mass CAS or even just like American soldiers that got banked up or something out in the field they'd they run them through the chute and um that was a pretty eye-opening experience because I'd I'd manned the gun there most shifts which was a and this is uh on Haifa Street.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:00

Haifa Street correct and for the listener you know back in those especially those days you know probably about two K's up there was a massive battle that was one of the fucking places was about go for anyone well mate we had um when I was there there was actually a big battle on Haifa Street and there was a massive there was lots of mass cash in incidents at that point because it wasn't too far from Sarda City and I was rolling with the MPs one day and um we actually took a tourist we actually took a um a bit of a tourist drive out to the Sarda City border and that's the first time I'd ever been um which is over the other side of the Tigris.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:30

Correct correct so you had to go across the bridge I'm not actually so sure we're allowed to do that but I think they were doing recis for like um the dips and stuff like that. But anyway I went with these guys one day and I was um up front like a big boy and then um I remember pulling up to this checkpoint just before Sarda City but we were going to pull a U-bang and get out of there but in the process of turning the U the turning the U, um this Georgian soldier I don't know whether he was PSD or whatever but I remember the big Georgian flag on his on his chest there he he leveled off with an AK47 and I remember vividly it was the first time I can remember anyone ever pointing uh a an assault rifle at me and I just thought fucking this is this might be it. I hope this glass is bulletproof it was so it was so quick and it happened so fast and it was over even quicker but we just pulled a U-turn and left but I guess the old mate on the checkpoint was like um that's a bit out of the norm and it was such a high it was such a high threat at that time because there was a lot of green zone penetration like they talk about the green zone being extremely safe and in large part it is but there was you know you get daily orders and stuff like that and and orders and and in updates on the daily of someone made entry and you've got like fighting age males carrying this or that or dress like this to keep an eye out sort of thing um which evidently happened to me at the Australian embassy because we had a a pen a truck had penetrated the green zone type of truck. It was like a you know it was a garbage truck actually but because we were so drilled with like how vehicles should look with um ID VB IDs VB IDs are when they load cars up and stuff with high explosive and drive it into checkpoints and blow dudes up and that was happening on the regular over there you know but anyway we had an orders group that morning we know about a truck that had penetrated the green zone and I'd come into the new platoon and it was my day on the gun and you know this vehicle had driven past a couple of times because you can see at the end of the shoot it's about 30 40 metres down to the Haifa Street Road and I saw it go past once and then I saw it go past again and I saw it go past again I was like I was starting to think man that's it's a bit funsy yeah um anyway this vehicle turned into the chute and it was one of those scenarios where that's that that's a key indicator for someone trying to line you up for a potential VBID um but unbeknownst to the guy in the truck the embassy had changed the um the uh the they used to have a straight chute but then they changed it to an S bend but they also put in their speed humps were made of steel they used to have concrete ones in there but because um they wanted a more of a ability to stop vehicles um and the truck driver hadn't realized this it was a combination of errors I guess but um getting to it this truck had run into the run into the checkpoint a little bit faster than he should and um he hit the first bollard to to stop but he didn't and he rolled over it and then he took the chicane and all these sirens are going off the there was a red light there that the um they were pressing for him to stop stop stop hands are up anyway he kept moving and I was like I remember I was looking down the I was looking down the um I was looking down the barrel of the 58 and I vividly see the the the guy there and because he was of of dark complexion I remember I could see his eyes.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:32

What's on the 58?

SPEAKER_03 1:47:33

Is it a have you got an L side on there or was it a she was naked hindsight yeah it was naked but it was on a fixed um it was on a fixed pivot so it was on a like a it was a left to right up and down like you couldn't tripod yeah but it was fixed into yeah it was fixed into the into the concrete um little hut thing that I was in so you could swing it left to right and up and down so you didn't have much geometry but you could definitely lay on and and um fill it so mate he um he ran through this checkpoint a little bit too fast and a little bit too far and I remember going there was about three there was about three like levels of threat I guess I went through in my mind and like he qualified the first one he qualified the second one and then on the third one he was getting too close and um mate I gave him three 10 round bursts with the 58 at pretty close range it would have been about 25 meters or less and um yeah I I shot this fella um through the windscreen of this truck and he rolled to a stop um and then in obviously he slumped over the um he slumped over the steering wheel and then he slumped against the door and that was that the sirens went off the gate went down and then the um the radio came through um slats slats called me through the through the little uh radio and and another fellow was my two I see jimmy bogue he was up on the um he was up on the crow's nest on the roof of the embassy and he's looked over and he called me he said you good I said yeah I'm good and another fella Jason Fisley he actually engaged the truck as well so when I l when I started he started and then um and then uh the Americans came out and they had to do like a uh obviously a uh a sweep and clear of the vehicle and um when they went out there the the guy went out and they opened the they got the dog and the mirror and all the things and then when they opened the door of the truck the the top half of his body fell out of the truck I pretty much cut him in half um I think only two shots went shy but um I remember his slippers falling out of the truck and all of his intestines and all of his guts and everything stuff all of the coagulated blood fell out of the truck and um yeah mate he he he he definitely expired there that day. And that was my first uh that was my first I guess you would consider it a life taking experience. It was only later down the track that I found out that he was a civilian that worked for an American company over there. It didn't take anything away from it. I have zero uh regrets um and when I say that I don't mean that I was Happy about it, but uh the day played out the way it played out. I was trained to do what I was trained to do, and I uh interestingly enough was looked after very well by the uh the legal system within the ADF because the American agencies try to obviously just part of their deal, they have to investigate um what happened on the day, and I think it was uh civilian mob anyway. They're just trying to look after the people like the American citizens as as we all do. But um mate, it was it was des it was designated a a lawful uh a lawful shooting, and um that was it. I was 20 excuse me. So yeah, I was 20, almost 21. And that went down. So um how long you got left on your the rest of the rotation? I think two months, two months. So I um funnily enough that happened, and then two days later I flew out to uh Heathrow Airport on Rockle. So they straight to Europe, straight to Europe, straight to London. So the boys. Yeah, well, interestingly enough, I um I'm not much of a drinker, but I um I went over there and just by chance, one of my mates that I grew up with in Canberra, Drew Boy, he um he was overseas playing uh rugby because he's a pretty accomplished rugby player. And um I tried to try to get my cousin to come over, but he had a family at that time, so I was like, I reached out at Drew Boy, and he was living at um Covent Garden in England there, London, sorry. And um me and him linked up for a couple of days and we just partied, we went down to Fabric. I don't know if it's still there, but Fabric used to be his crazy, crazy nightclub in um in London there, and had a great time, yeah. Excuse me. But um, yeah, it was a good experience, mate. And I sp I I went from England, uh sorry, went from London over to um to Rome and had a had a bit of a week there. So you get about two weeks off. So I spent a week in in London and a week in Rome. And um me and Johnny F um got blind one night at this place called the Drunken Ship in a little bloody uh little bloody piazza there in Italy, just eating pizzas and getting on the cans, and he had his family flying in. So we only had one night on the cans and we had a good time and uh mate. I went and seen all the sites, went to the Coliseum and saw all the things, and then went back to country. I think it was about three or four weeks, and we ripped out of there.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:21

Just quickly on that, I think personally uh Rockle, I'm not sure if they do it these days or whatever they call it now. You know, there's no deployments going on, but I think it was very detrimental to the health, you know, looking back in hindsight to soldiers these days. Uh, you know, example, you know, Afghanistan when I went, you know, a lot of boys took that option to go to uh Europe and etc. I I was uh had a child, so I came back to Australia. Sure. Uh probably a good thing because I wasn't on the booze, blah blah blah, you know, just living the dad life. Whereas, you know, the boys would go to Europe and just fucking turn it on for two weeks. Decompression. In a way, decompression is it a smart thing to allow these guys that have just experienced what they've experienced to go to a country and just fucking turn it on and then get back into it? I don't know. I think there's a there's a lot in play that really needs to look at. Yeah, you know, I'm wondering if DVA's ever looked into that scenario because I reckon it's played a lot of havoc on blokes because it's encouraging guys to get on it and turn it on and and and celebrate being soldiers, you know what I mean? Celebrate killing, celebrate fucking fuck yeah, yeah, bro. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 1:53:35

And I tell you, man, like it probably I agree, it's probably not a good thing because I know, like I said, that engagement at the at the checkpoint, old mates dead, probably would have affected somebody differently if I wasn't so predisposed, I guess. I mean, sure, I haven't ever killed anyone before, but that whole death and destruction kind of thing was part of it already. But um, I remember when I got to um London, it was winter, and I'd like I'm straight, I just come straight from the desert, so I'm tanned as fuck, rocked up in board shorts and a and a t-shirt, and everyone's looking at me like I'm fucking crazy cunt. Uh I was jacked because I was in the gym every day, so I was a bit of a like um people, yeah, exactly. But people could see like that I didn't fit in there, so I went down and bought myself some warm clothes and stuff. So, but yeah, I like I think if I wasn't so adverse to drinking, obviously, because I grew up in that environment. I um because I've never been a bit much of a drinker, even in even in my adult life. I just I sort of just don't do it. But um, yeah, uh there's some questions to be because I know there's a bunch of dudes that are on that trip that ended up at New Newcastle upon Tyne. Good dudes, you know who you are, the green-eyed boys. Anyway, um they um they they uh they definitely turned it on and um they've got some pretty funny stories to come out of that. But yeah, look, it it could be could be catastrophic, it could be normal. I had a normal holiday, um, but it could also be, like you say, detrimental because it just spinning it. I think it is, yeah. I think it was. Yeah, yeah. It's not smart.

SPEAKER_01 1:54:54

And I mean I think uh very interesting to see if someone's looked into it because I don't think it's healthy.

SPEAKER_03 1:54:58

Well, down in uh encouraging well, special operations. I think the whole preset behind having trips shorter nullifies that that regulated uh you know that that ruling that they have that you should have time off.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:55:14

So I think we just go and compress everything into the time we're over there and then we go home.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:55:19

So yeah, the decompression thing. The thing about the army is, and we're looking at it now with the cases that are going on, there's a lot of thinking in the front and not a lot of thinking in the back.

SPEAKER_01 1:55:28

But again, also I don't I don't blame uh blame defence back then because again, war fighting is a fucking brand new experience for exactly not even just for the soldier but for the officers. It was a brand new fucking concept because before that prior was you know um you know, team or Vietnam. Yeah, Vietnam. But you can't when yeah, when we talk about war fighting, Vietnam was pretty much the last scenario.

SPEAKER_03 1:55:52

And the thing is, the only things that are similar between Vietnam and and I guess Iraq and Afghanistan is the reasons why we weren't and the enemy that we were fighting. Yeah. And I'll elaborate. The reasons why we weren't weren't the reasons we were told, and the enemy we were fighting were not uniformed enemy. They were able to hide within the general population, the village population, and it was in it was a uh asymmetric battle space. So there was no like you know, there was no known enemy, is what I'm trying to say. Exactly right. So the the conf that the the confusion that goes along with that, as well as the fog of war and everything that we're all hearing about now, like it's it's not as clean cut as the media might make it out to be. It's not as clean cut as it is in the theory books, it's not as clean cut as some old mate's story that's never actually been there and trying to push a narrative. It's it's very, very difficult and it's very confusing and conflicting.

SPEAKER_01 1:56:50

Exactly right. And just quickly on that, when you say you know, we're lied to about the stories of why we're going to we didn't fucking care at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_03 1:56:59

I agree.

SPEAKER_01 1:57:00

As a soldier, as a paratrooper, I did not care if if they said you're going to Taiwan to take over Taiwan, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:57:06

I'd be on the boat.

SPEAKER_01 1:57:07

I'm on the next fucking boat. Yeah, I'm gonna go. I'm going. I don't I don't care if it's there to fucking build wells or yeah, you know, build schools. I don't care. I want to deploy it as an infantry soldier and do my job.

SPEAKER_03 1:57:16

I agree, man. And that's um, and ultimately that's why we sign up. Exactly right. And I agree, I I would have gone anywhere.

SPEAKER_01 1:57:22

Exactly right. That's what I'm trying to say, yeah. Which is why, because that was also instilled within your culture, within your unit or wherever you come from, but the infantry life, the inventory way of thinking.

SPEAKER_03 1:57:32

Yeah, and I mean that's the that's the data on it. Yeah. You know, if they want if they want down, if they want downrange to change, they need to change it before we go. Yeah. Because that's how it is. Yeah. You can only you can only when when when a crisis happens, you fall to your throat, you you you rise to your training. You don't, you know, you don't this the training is what governs what you do. Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:57:52

So um but so you're back from uh Rockall, you do your last couple of months on rotation in Iraq. How was that last couple of months? Just the same monotonous.

SPEAKER_03 1:58:04

No, no more ruber driving. I think there was a bit of a lockdown after that incident. Um, I remember that's we were basically just doing dip security again still. Um a lot of there was guys over there um that were uh Johnny Howard came over. So I got to have um uh Christmas breaky, Christmas lunch with him. Um and then because there was the SAS component that were with him at the time, they um obviously were notified that there was what had happened with me at the checkpoint, and they pulled me into a little room and were just like, hey mate, well, not not like a secret squirrel thing, but they were just like, hey mate, you know, like how how are you going? Like what's the how you feeling? You know, what you're going through is totally normal. So it was it was really cats were doing that. Cats were doing that.

SPEAKER_01 1:58:44

So obviously they're getting the obviously the the psychological support and understanding of the city.

SPEAKER_03 1:58:49

Sure, but they but they well for me, you know, this was my this is my very first interaction with uh SSR operators, and um Do you remember who they were? No, no, mate. I I was just I was out there listening and you had a chat with a young bird, Joe at the Australian Embassy in 06, was it? Yeah, I think 06. Yeah, man, but all I remember was these like I think back now, and they were bloody, you know, real wiry looking, real athletic blokes, and I didn't even really realise who I was talking to until I realised, and then it was just like what what what a good experience. They, you know, they didn't have to they didn't have to talk to me at all. No, exactly. But they but I think again, knowing what I do now about special operations now is you got a lot more freedom, a lot more flexibility. And they actually came and spoke to me. Sorry, uh it wasn't a secret room. I was man in the man in the cameras at the embassy, and they actually came into the room and were just like, hey mate, are you blah blah bar? I was like, Yeah, and they're like, Oh, we heard the the thing at the at the um checkpoint, um, and basically just wanted to have a yarn and I was I was really grateful for that because yeah, zero obligation, but total, total value, total, uh, total recruiting value.

SPEAKER_01 1:59:54

Yep, yep. All right, now let's let's let's move forward because uh you know we're this is funny. We spoke about this offline. I'm like, oh mate, this podcast will probably go for a good you know three, four hours. We're we're two hours in.

SPEAKER_03 2:00:06

Well, mate, there's even things I'm looking at me, little run sheet here that I've left out.

SPEAKER_01 2:00:09

Yeah, but there might be time for a uh part two. So let's uh let's move forward though. So you finish your trip to Iraq, head back to Holesworthy. Yes. Thoughts of two commando or four RR at this stage. What's where's this? Because obviously this is swinging through again. I'm talking from my experience, it was swinging through the batain. Yeah, everyone was training for it, everyone's getting ready for it.

SPEAKER_03 2:00:29

And I'll go back to my experience at Singo. There was um guys that I had had a friend befriended in the in the singleton times, and they'd actually been over and become qualified operators. And when I come back from Iraq, I touched down, we're back to Cranulla, and the boys were over in Timor at that point. So they were doing SF jobs before I uh, and I was I was communicating SAP phone, whatever, and um, these were all my mates, so I was like, I want you to come in home, sort of thing. But they were like, mate, um, we heard about it. Uh and they, you know, they heard about the action over in Iraq. And they were like, mate, have you got your paperwork in? So I was getting that like, bro, come now, come now, come now. And it sort of fed it fed the beast in me to be like, right, I've sort of I've made my bones now, and uh I'm I want to I want to go to the next level because Percy McDonald actually told me, he said, mate, don't get bogged down in the battalion. Learn your skills, get what you need out of it, and if you've got aspirations to go to special forces, get going. Because he was great mates with um, I believe a uh hard charger from 3R AR who ended up being over. Trooper Bruce, he is in that book. Probably shouldn't have said his name, maybe.

SPEAKER_02 2:01:28

I'll uh I'll timestamp that. Sorry, mate.

SPEAKER_03 2:01:31

But um, yeah, mate. So there was uh let's call him Trooper Bruce.

SPEAKER_02 2:01:35

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 2:01:35

Trooper Bruce from the amazing SAS was a hard charger from 3RAR who was uh good friends with Percy McDonald. And um, you know, I I guess Percy learned his lessons from Trooper Bruce and he passed them on to me. So I took that guidance with both hands and um and put in my paperwork, as I said, before I left um Iraq, it was already in the system. So when I come home, it was just let's go, let's get training. Me and Johnny F, I've mentioned him a couple of times now, but we both committed to it. Um and like many things in my life, Maddie, I tend to find if I have no way but forward, I tend to succeed in whatever my goals are. So I was, you know, yourself, if you've got aspirations to go to special forces, but you have a platoon sergeant that ha doesn't like the idea that you're gonna try and go on and do something better than they did, they'll try and keep you off the training program, or they'll try and um they'll try and things have just changed anyway for me. So I decided to burn the bridges and burn the boats at three and just really bit down on the training cycle and and basically fuck you to everyone. And I'm locking in to training so I can pass uh calf and uh the calft and selection and and get going.

SPEAKER_01 2:02:47

Yep, just quickly um I'll timestamp this and bleep it out. John F correct. Yep, gotcha. Yeah, so you obviously do your what's it called? Uh special forces entry test. Yeah, I did my entry test. Um and who's on this? Uh you know, uh notable names, some that are out you can say obviously. If there's anything else we can timestamp and bleep.

SPEAKER_03 2:03:10

Uh let me see. So I don't really know anybody from the CAFT or the selection entry test other than um Johnny, as I mentioned. And it became the the names come down range more so on selection. Yep, gotcha. When you start building your own little crews and people. Oh, I'll go back one. Um let's say Spilly was on my um my entry test. Uh he was another three area heavy weapons. Big dude, big dude. He was a man mountain. Good dude too. Yeah. Um yeah, bro. Good guy, still there, I think. He's uh he's a great dude. Is he still there? I believe so.

SPEAKER_01 2:03:45

Yeah, so he was the only one I heard when he remembered like full tilt. Big dude too. Big jaw.

SPEAKER_03 2:03:51

That's what I mean. He got along, probably. But um, yeah, mate. So we went on to um that got panel, did when went on to selection. So the selection, uh, you know, I'm I may not get these numbers correctly, but uh I remember from selection again, singleton. I think there's about 250 on the course. Uh, and some of the notable names that I'll say now. Um, you know, there's you obviously know the Doc brothers. Well, I was on I was on with Little Doc. Um uh friend of mine, very good friend of mine. I still speak to him regularly. Dingo, uh Pulley, Spilly, I mentioned, uh the Fly Fisherman.

SPEAKER_01 2:04:25

Um Anthony Dimov, uh, for the listeners out there. That's yeah, the Fly Fisherman. Anthony Dimov in Scott Rider. So um obviously in the Hilo uh as well with uh Scott Ryder.

SPEAKER_03 2:04:36

2010, yeah, that's right. So um I think Scott Ryder was um I think he hurt himself on his first selection, and he he this is his second time through. So uh he was on my selection and uh a good uh a good notable uh O that was on that um who ended up at two as well was Brams. I'll just say Brams. I know he's out now, but he'll know if he's listening. Um good guy, really good leader. He was very influential to me when uh my brother passed away, uh my cousin passed away. Sorry, um, he was a real good, real good leader and guider. But um, yeah, so selection kicked off. I remember the PTIs on that um on that selection were um Ben Camphus and uh Glenn Falkard, two of the most um bro, these guys used to just know how to work soldiers uh to the absolute bone. Um Campo was the guy that was notable for being able to run a backwards BFA um in about seven minutes.

SPEAKER_01 2:05:35

Yeah, I've fucking heard about this.

SPEAKER_03 2:05:36

Yeah, he could run a backwards BFA in seven minutes. Uh I don't think I I don't think I'll ever run a BFA in seven minutes, even later when I became a um an ultra runner. Uh but Glenn, uh he he was a yeah, another PTI in that. You you got you learned pretty quickly to be scared of those guys. Um PTIs. PTIs, yeah. So the Not SF. No, so so I think Fox was a a medic um and PTI, but later I think he he was at the he was at the unit. Uh I'm unsure about his um um category, but mate, he was he was part of the unit. He was, I don't know, I don't know. I don't get into the politics of it, I don't know about the minutia of it, but um yeah, he was there, obviously. Um and the mate, the the I I didn't realise at the time, but um you would wake up on those cold singleton mornings, freezing cold, and they're banging the drum for you to get out on the out onto the um out onto the footy oval because you've got a signature PT uh happening. And I know there was a lot of psychological warfare use because Campo used to run these um uh torsion bar circuits, they used to get like car axles and cut them up, and they were pretty heavy. So they're about 15 kilo, 15-20 kilo little short sections of steel, but you could hear them rolling off the back of the Ute. So they used to have a little Hilux workmate and they would roll, and you could hear them going ding ding, and we knew we were in for it. So um we'd all end up out on the parade ground, and there were those classic special forces. Um, you know, those PT sessions were we're not we're not leaving this field until we get 10 people or 20 people or because we started with a relatively big group. So they were like these workouts that were just like unforgiving and painful, uh, and they didn't let us stop. You know, obviously they had a time frame that they'd work to, but they also had a a I guess a quota that they would work to. We need 10 failures and we need two hours on the field. Um, but yeah, I learned pretty quickly that you weren't allowed to walk anywhere, everything was running, everything was under duress and weight and stuff like that. It's all just um yeah, it was all designed for where we'd end up later. Uh, I remember after we got through that phase, the first 48 to 72 hours was a NavX. A little bit of a funny one here. Um, I was I was an absolute ass hat at um at navigation because skipped through it in single and then didn't really do too much of it in um in at three, probably should have. But um, yeah, it was like a 48 hour, 72 hour, can't quite remember, um, navigation exercise that went and day and night, and you weren't allowed to communicate with anybody. You used to have those old A V sets on your back or you could only tune into AM radio or call back to SOXE. So we all stepped off at the same time. Everyone had their own grid and direction and checkpoint you had to reach. Some checkpoints might have been three K's, there was other checkpoints that were like 25k, 15k, something like that. So I um from the from the first step, I'd whatever, you know, in my defense, the first checkpoint that I got sent to was only a short one. So it was about three K's way got there, couldn't find it anyway. I thought, okay, I must have fucked up the direction, moved back and went from the start again, reshot it, and then went down. But what had actually happened was whoever was putting up the the checkpoint markers, because what they used to do was they'd have like a phone book there and you'd have to read down certain lines, like you'd call back and say, right, page six, go down to level one, wherever on the page, and read out this person's number, and then that'd be like, yep, tick, and then you'd go, okay, move to next checkpoint, right? So anyway, I uh I moved off to my first checkpoint, wasn't there, and it comes out later that they hadn't actually put in the right place. So I was fucked from the start. So how I how I circumvented this problem was I would um uh I would track someone through the scrub and it's out the back of singing, it's dinosaur country. So I'd listen out because I've I've done a fair bit of time in the bush growing up, so I'd used to know how I mean I I'd learn about you know patterns of life and animal disturbance and sounds and what should and shouldn't be there. So anyway, I'd I'd I'd just pull up short, I'd I'd pull up quiet, like I was on a stalk, and then I'd wait and I'd listen, and then I'd I'd I'd basically just move in the direction of the sound and I'd I'd follow someone in that obviously knew what they were doing, but they'd get to the checkpoint and I I'd hold off like maybe 20, 30 metres in the scrub, and when they'd move off, I'd move into the checkpoint and I'd call in the radio, I'd be like, Yep, it's um it's candidate 41, it's candidate 13, um, at checkpoint three, um, blah, blah, blah. And they go, uh candidate 13, you're not supposed to be at that one you're supposed to be. I said, Oh, no, no. Whoever was on the radio said, but what I did realize was that there was shift changes at the SOC. Gotcha. So I'll be like, hey man, I'm at checkpoint, I'm at checkpoint uh two. They'd be like, Right, mate, read down this line and move off to checkpoint next checkpoint. So then I'd be like, okay, I'm back on track. And then I'd I'd I'd like I I think because of the stress that I'd put on myself at the start, it'd fuck me up. But then, like, you know yourself, when you're doing navigation, you know, a little degree off at the other end might be kilometers off. So um, again, I use this method of um paralleling roads and shit, but they because the DS were out there, Delta Company DS too, mind you, so they were they were pretty savage. If they saw you running on roads and stuff like that, and in the brief, they're like, Oh, you're not allowed to, you're not allowed to use um roads for for movement. Yeah, fuck that. So I was um I was moving down roads like many guys were, or they were moving along spur lines or whatever. And then um again, I'd use that same method and I'd I'd wait to find somebody and I'd track back to that checkpoint, and then um, and then that's how I get it. And at night time, how that would work was I'd get to a high point and I'd look because they used to have siloom sticks on the checkpoint. So I'd I'd I'd find a silo stick and just beeline towards it. And this went on for days, man. And the funny story was I was um I was I was shacked up under a tree one one day, and I this is where the first the first meeting of um my mate Dingo happened. I was um I was having a snooze under the tree because I basically relegated myself to fuck man, I'm probably gonna fail this. So I was having a bit of a snooze and he ran along and he was like, I think I scared him because he's um two hour hour recon, fucking squared away guy. You know what? He actually bounced off um selection in Perth and they gave him the old you're too young, mate. And he rolled into special, he's rolled into two commando selection. When he when he comes around, mate, when he comes back to when he when he wants to, mate, he's a he's a guy you want to get on here. But um anyway, he had a bit of a laugh and we talked about it later on in in our career, and he said that day I saw you, I he thought to myself, he goes, Oh well, I'll never see him again. Evidently he did. But I um yeah, funny story, but that's how I got through it. And then by the last day, but what what I did manage to do was clock up a lot of kilometers, so um, you know, I think. There's guys up there that were hitting like 70, 80 kilometers over the three-day period. I think I got up to maybe 50 or 60, I wouldn't say 60, maybe 50k. Let's let's be let's let's err on the side of caution, maybe 50 kilometers over the couple of days on foot with a pack and all that sort of stuff. And um, I think there was like a category on the you know, I don't know, this is just me just making it up in my mind. I think that was like a a pass fail for distance covered, or there was guys out there that had like 13 checkpoints and they were killing it. Or I got like I don't know how many I got, but uh evidently I uh I I made the grade and they let me go through to the next phase and and then that was it. So on on to the next, which was um special forces weapons.

SPEAKER_01 2:12:38

Yep. Uh sorry, what when was this? What year was selection? 2007? Seven, correct. Seven. So at this stage, you know, again I've spoken about this on other podcasts where you know your DS are war fighters. Some of these boys have made on yeah operations in Afghanistan, Iraq, etc.

SPEAKER_03 2:12:54

Yeah, mate. Well, I'll go on to that. So my my DS and the guys that were running that course were Delta Company guys who'd been to Anna Connor and Gizab, right? So we're talking the likes of uh Craig Hamburger, Berg, um, you got um, I won't say his name, uh Big Frank. Frank, uh I don't know, yeah, I'll just let's just say Frank. Everybody knows who Frank is. Um uh and and their sort of guys. So these guys, I remember we're doing night moves through the scrub and we're moving and scene. We're doing like a um move to target sign of thing. But the I remember walking behind these guys and they had wounds from Gizab still, like they had patches over, not patches, but like bullet, like dudes have been shot in the ass and fucking shot in the legs, and like they that's what you're looking at. These are the guys that are training you that are literally just come off rotation that have been in the fucking business. Like it doesn't get more real to that. And the Delte cut the Delta Company guys at that point, they were they were they were like the guys that were known in the unit to be just those the Punisher guys that you know, like they're the hard charges that everyone was talking about, and you know, obviously subsequent trips leveled a level the scale. But um, yeah, I remember Berg was my actual section commander, I guess you call for that. And he and I um had a really sort of good relationship there, obviously as good as you can be in the DS and a candidate. But uh I remember I had really fucked up. Um I had like a um a bad sort of um I had crowded teeth and he used to call me Bugs Bunny all the time. So that was like his little funny, which was good because it sort of brought us together. But um, yeah, mate, I I can't thank Berg's enough. Um he actually was really instrumental in uh my success going through selection uh and then onward into the unit. Um he was always somebody that I could um you know pull up and have a chat with and um and and get some experience or some information from. And that's even played out post-service too, mate. Like um I speak to him through socials and stuff like that now, which has been really good because um it's funny how far away and far removed you get after you leave, uh maybe um uh disconnected from the unit and the boys. But um, he's been from day one, week one, someone that I could communicate with and contact with because we had that affinity with rugby league as well. We're bloody, yeah, both rugby league boys. So there's that good common common ground there that we could always sort of talk about.

SPEAKER_01 2:15:06

Yeah, just for listener, one episode 154, Craig Hamburger.

SPEAKER_03 2:15:10

Yeah, great guy, mate. Um can't say enough good about him. Um and there were I remember there was a time on the on one of the um, you know, they sit you down and and they all ask you questions about um what your intent were in the unit, like the the um, I guess it's like a panel where they ask you these hard questions. And one of the questions was like, uh, is anyone here, has anyone here ever been in um a situation where you've killed someone or seen a dead body or blah blah blah. It's more I guess like it's like a like a qualifying thing. I think basically it's like for them to be like, yes, we all have because we're operators and you guys haven't because you're the jubes. But there I think there was three in my um, I think there was three in my selection that actually have myself. There was another dude, I think he was a micro, he was a surgeon or something, and he'd actually hit a guy in a car, like it was not a hit and run, but he'd run some guy over and killed him in a car accident. And then there was a dude, um, he's no longer with us. His name was um Duncan Garland, or his nickname was Jude. He um he was an army diver. And I think with Banda Arche, uh he was an army diver and he had to do like a lot of body recovery and stuff like that. And you I remember him telling me a story once where he was um submerged and he had to go up into like a boat hole or into like a little there was something, and he told me he popped up into this air pocket cavity, and there was a body floating in the in this cavity, and he like went white light inside this dark area, and there was just like this dead body staring at him. It was all bloated and it was all fucked up, obviously, from the tsunami. But like, you know, you don't hear about those stories, and Jude's no longer with us. Um, I don't know the details around his passing, but I I believe it was post-um service mismanagement, I guess, or something along those lines. But I don't think I've ever heard anyone say his name, and I believe that um he's a name that should be remembered. Not so much, I guess, for his capacity as a soldier, but for just being an Aussie and writing his name down on that line and becoming qualified and going to the unit. He's a good guy and um very accomplished guy, and maybe someone has talked about him in the past, I'm not sure. But I just want to take a moment to say his name because he was a good guy.

SPEAKER_01 2:17:11

No, good mate, good. Now, uh from there, you finish your selection. How many what was the attrition rate?

SPEAKER_03 2:17:17

Mate, it was pretty high, I think. Uh, from memory, and I probably get stabbed after this, but it was um I think there was about 250 on the call, it was at least 200, it wasn't. It was a big horse. Um, the that cycle went for about five weeks, I think. I think the selection went for about five weeks, maybe a touchover. It was very long, fucking cold. But um, I I I reckon maybe 20 guys went to the unit, maybe 15-20 guys marched into 4R at the time. Um, so yeah, it was pretty high.

SPEAKER_01 2:17:45

So from the March uh into 4R. This is again, this is uh SF unit mate moving into the the real deal. Yep. They're deploying, they're fighting, dudes are getting injured.

SPEAKER_03 2:17:58

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 2:17:59

So um I mean obviously talk about uh rotations into Afghanistan.

SPEAKER_03 2:18:03

Yeah, I mean well we when did I get to the unit? It was the first so we finished we'd finished our finished our selection and then rolled straight into Rio Cycle. Um and that was in 07, so we'd finished that and then Rio Cycle went for the remainder of 07, I believe. And we've we got into marched into the unit proper early 08, and I think there was about three months, so it was about three or four months at the unit before we deployed. So we did um we did our trip down to Coltana and and Wyala for our pre-deployment, long-range weapons, um, you know, 50 cal uh qualifications, Mark 19s, uh obviously I didn't do the jab, but they're doing live jabs down there, um, and all the all the SF stuff, like all the all the cool Gucci toys and learning about all the um thermals and lasers and all the different things you learn on your Rio cycle. Rio cycle is a is a massive component to becoming a fully fledged member, a berade member. Um, yeah. So I think 50 of us went on the Rio cycle. Um that you know, that's a combination of climbing course, mountaineering, para course. I stepped out of that one. A few of us did because we'd already been qualified. Uh there's a small driving course. It was one of it was that era when um the ACQB or advanced close quarter battle or rumor, you know, like um you know, compound clearing and stuff like that was decided that everyone marching into the unit was going to be qualified to be able to go on tag was tag roll um or tactical assault group role, um, which was pretty hectic as it was the first of its kind. Uh, extremely good experience. I had an ego death on that one as well because um you go along killing it, and on Rio, they still use the um black pen and red pen thing. But what I didn't realise at the time, they'd switch the fucking ink out. So they'd be marking you down as red, so you shit in your pants thinking you fucked it up, but they're actually marking you down with black pen like you're doing well. I think I got rainbow squatted in that, and I still don't know whether it was because I was a bag or that was just part of the psychological testing component of it, because I was pretty sharp with the tools. I think I had one safety breach, but it was a diver who pulled me up, he's probably jealous anyway. But I um um yeah, man. Look, I I got in the rainbow squad for so what the rainbow squad is, you've got different teams, different color designations, and you're doing different things, multi-uh, the RFCR, you're doing like multi-level uh combined um assaults and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 2:20:22

Anyway, Resto's not the AC, is he?

SPEAKER_03 2:20:25

Uh uh just a joke.

SPEAKER_01 2:20:27

Yeah, just a joke.

SPEAKER_03 2:20:28

I love you, Esther. Don't kill me. But it was um, yeah, mate. So there was different coloured teams, and when there was, I guess, guys that weren't cutting the mustard, you got this rainbow team. You might have a blue guy and a yellow guy, a red guy and a green rainbow squad. Anyway, rainbow squad. And um passed, no problems. I don't I don't ever remember being fearful of not passing, but I sort of had a bit more of a bit more of an agitation that I got rainbow squad because there's like anything, you're in the rainbow squad, you get a bit of a fucking stain on your on your mind. It's like it might shit, it might get, you know, but I guess that again is part of the process. Um, but yeah, got through that and then um what was the next phase there? I think we went on to amphibib course. So amphib course, um, we picked up and moved down to uh just uh Melbourne there on Port Phillip Bay and we started Amphib course. And why I remember this really vividly because over Rio cycle, um you your attrition rate doesn't stop. So you're losing guys like guys that didn't pass or guys that weren't deemed um deemed qualified enough. Um and that was they're whittling it down. And amphibi's amphibious course is a real is a real um way that they can shed a lot of um they can they really find out who you are on amphib because you're freezing cold, you're extremely tired, yeah, and your personality, you can't hide your personality when you're warm and healthy and you've got a full belly and all that kind of thing. So when you're absolutely strung out, freezing cold, salt water, chafe, tired, all the things, this is where the DS can really lock in on you and and and and and focus on you because the the numbers in the teams aren't as big anymore. So you get more attention. Um, but yeah, so Mick Craig was the OC for that. Rest in peace. Um, and got through that course, no real worries. But one point to note on that, I was in Little Doc's boat. So he's in my uh he was in my boat crew, and little doc was good mates with another fella that had passed while we're on Amphib course, Luke Walsley. He passed away in Afghanistan. And I remember one of the speeches that come down our boat was this is as real as it gets, boys. User here on Amphib course trying to get your grand beret. Uh, we don't think that you're good enough because he's fucking not there yet. And let's let's uh I'm gonna give you a reality check here. An operator has this morning been killed in action in Afghanistan, Luke Wolsey and and little Doc was like, Fuck man, he's my mate. Because obviously he lived in Sydney and the little cohort, like I said, there's like little tribes wherever you live, man, Lil Kranala, wherever you live. You got your own little crew. Anyway, little doc's mate was um Luke, and he was in that group of mates, and he was in my boat crew, and I was just like, fuck man, I don't even know what to, you know, what can you say? But he but he took it like a fucking champ, mate. He just cracked on and did the bizo and got through, and you know, obviously he was one of the guys that marched into the unit and stayed for a long time. High pedigree, yeah, high pedigree guy.

SPEAKER_01 2:23:12

Um and uh just quickly again for the listener, anyone listening to episode 247, Eddie Robinson was there uh dragged Wolseley out, also uh Cam Baird, yeah, VCMG. Crazy, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:23:26

So you know the the the the synergy between blokes, you know, like it you're not so far from removed from you know, and I speak to Beardy, like the only the only interactions I've ever had with Beardy was a head nod, a Galay, and that's as far as I went. But I also knew he was a high-level guy, uh, and you know, I I wouldn't have said more than five words to him in my life, but that that connection with Robbo and I, because me and him had mates, um, and also with like uh the docks and those the doc brothers and stuff like that. It's just it's such a small community when you get down to the nuts and bolts of it. Um, but yeah, onward. So we um got through got through amphib. Funny story. Uh all the DS guys were all alpha guys, uh, and the guys that had been on uh the rotation before where um Chad Elliott had got shot. So the guy, those pedigree guys were my um DS for that um for that course. Um and they were saying to us, yeah, cool, you guys were years have passed. Um and uh one thing we have to tell you is boys aren't allowed to go on the piss tonight. But mate, you've got to understand, like we'd be on we're on the back end of Rio cycle, like it's gone on and on and on. We get very little leave, you're constantly travelling, you're constantly under pressure, you don't get much time to blow this blow the steam off. So anyway, there was a group of us, um, rider was one, you know, it was a couple of us anyway. I'll just say him because everyone knows him. But me and him ended up in um Frankston. So we ended up in Frankston under the under the recommendation not to go out anyway. Um so we went out and we ended up with this this bar slash sort of bodgy nightclub, and a lot of the Alpha guys were there, and it's like, boys, you shouldn't be here, you're gonna get in fucking trouble. I was like, No, we're sweet, we've done this before. We used to we hang out at the cross all the time, man. We're good for it. Anyway, um there's a fair bit of stories I left out of the three REI with the cross thing, but that's probably that's that's probably better. But anyway, I um I ended up um getting otherwise engaged that evening and ended up sleeping somewhere I shouldn't have, and I set my alarm to go off so I had enough time to get back to base. Had a few, had a few too many beers, which was un unlike me. Um so I had to hightail it back to base, this this navy base, and I pulled up and I they couldn't get through the gate, and I ended up running back to the lines, and the buses were the wheels were turning on the buses, and I ran back and I was getting on the bus. The boys had packed my room up. I didn't even sleep in the bed, but they packed my bag and got all my shit together. Total fucking cluster. But um, got there, hung over his shit, got on the bus, and Mick Craig is staring at me. He goes, You just lost your fucking spot at the unit. He goes, You couldn't even stay on barracks. Like I said, don't go out. This is why. And I was like, Fuck, he's probably right. Got on the bus and anyway, took a cup of panodol, went to sleep, and ended up back at sickness. We had to try we had to go all the way back up to Singleton on the bus. So fuck, man, I paid, I paid the price all the way back. I was just living under this cloud of uncertainty, and like, bro, you you you know, you've been through three, you've done the Iraq, you did the selection, you got in, you finished. This is the end of Rio cycle. It's like you're done. Now the next step is that you're in, like you're going. So anyway, got back to Singo, camped up for the night, and then we had our AARs and stuff, like we had our final, final briefs, and like in in um, what was it? It was our like our uh like interviews and stuff like that. Anyway, got back to Singo and um it was a little bit of a funny Rob Muggridge and Dingo were good mates, and and Spilly was there, and I got called into the PHQ. It was a private thing. McCraig was in there and the and the um and uh Louie were there, it was at the time, I can't remember his name, but anyway, I went in there and they were like, listen, mate, you're fucked up. He goes, but you've been a high performer on on Rio Cycle, you know, you've been hard to fail, your work rate is high, all the all the attributes that we want of somebody in the unit is is very high. Um so take this as your one and only kiss on the dick. If you fucking step out of line again, you're gone. I was like, appreciate it. I ex I apologize to the highest level I probably can, and they said, right, we'll make up for it. So anyway, I got out and I got back to the group, and the boys were like, Did you swim the course? Did you get soldier merit? I was like, Yeah, fuck that soldier of merit, dude. I was like, younger fucking Mike's like, yeah, good work, mate, you did it, you know. But these guys were very senior soldiers from northern battalions, and like I could tell they're like, How the fuck did he get that? I just let it ride for years, and then later on down the track, when there was a bit of a uh a dip in morale on one of the trips where um it was a bit heavy and whatever, and guys are a bit like fucking, you know, they've gone through it. And I said, Well, you remember that time I got student mirror on on selection? That was an admin warning, bro. And they're all just laughing, like, you fucking dog. So um, yeah, mate, it's uh it was a little funny story, but I'm I'm eternally grateful that I actually got to get through that and didn't give myself the best chance again, but uh evidently I got into the unit. Yeah, yeah. Went into Alpha Company. So you get your beret mates and march straight into Alpha Company. Yeah, correct. Uh Alpha Company mates.

SPEAKER_01 2:28:28

Um how long until this first uh GAN trip?

SPEAKER_03 2:28:31

Mate, I think it was about four months. So we um got to the unit, as I said. Uh I I briefly went on a DEMS, a specialist DEMS course who um Dave Parker was the uh SI, I think, for I'm I I I won't get the position right, but that was my first um that's my first interaction with with Big Dave. And um I only realised this later down the track that he was the guy because he mentioned to it. And um we did our DEMS specialist DEMS course because before you deploy you have to have a special skill. Some guys get radio, some guys get medical, some guys get DEMS, blah blah blah. But I got Dems uh for breaching and and uh sabotage and stuff like that. Um but yeah, so that was that, and then basically rolled straight on to pre-deployment down in South Australia and um did all the things down there, got fast wrapping coil down there, a few different qualifications down there, and then um I think there was about two weeks or a week, and then it was uh bag drag and away we went. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 2:29:26

But quickly again for the listener, episode 87, Dave Parker. Shout out to Dave, spoke to him yesterday on the phone. Good fella. If you are looking for any hiking equipment, camping equipment, TPs, tents, jackets, head to past outdoors, there will be a zero limits code coming very shortly.

SPEAKER_03 2:29:44

Mate, and the thing, the funny thing about that is where it becomes full circle when uh when Dave got um passed and set all that up, and I went into my ultra running. I hadn't had much um communication with him at all after service, but he uh we ended up uh finding each other on um on Instagram and you and I said, Oh hey mate, I'm just wondering about getting this and that. And I didn't put two and two together at the time, but he was like, Burjo, I was like, Yeah, and he's just like fuck bro, you're doing an ultra. I was like, he goes, What do you need? Yeah, you know, and I was just like, Well fuck, bro, what do you got? That's it. And it was just like mate, like honestly, he's helped me more than he probably realizes, uh, not only in the unit, but also just post-service. He um, you know, he set me up with all kinds of nutrition, warm gear, poles, like, and it was a bit of a um bit of a sounding board for gear based around the ultra-running world um for him also, because I was out, I was basically the test on me for a lot of things. Um, and he'd always look after me, mate. He'd give me the give me the give me the dough rate and everything. So um, mate, yeah, hats off to Dave. Big shout out to Dave. He's he's a top.

SPEAKER_01 2:30:42

Head to pass outdoors on Instagram and check all that stuff out. Hiking gear, food, and uh he's in collaboration doing stuff with um uh Clancy Roberts, another uh mighty Third Battalion warrior.

SPEAKER_03 2:30:54

You can see your pattern there, can't you? Yeah, everyone talks about it. Three are mafia. We basically run special forces, guys. If you uh any of the young diggers out there thinking about it.

SPEAKER_01 2:31:02

Clancy's got a business out there running uh navigational skills out in the out in the wilderness.

SPEAKER_03 2:31:06

I think he's doing some um self-defence for women if they're out in the bush too. Correct.

SPEAKER_01 2:31:10

And I'm pretty sure that's all at Helensburg at past outdoors.

SPEAKER_03 2:31:13

A very unassuming guy, Clancy, mate, but he is uh he's a he's a serious dude. He's a cowboy.

SPEAKER_01 2:31:18

He is a cowboy, he's a cowboy, mate. Uh yeah, right. So from the LC, let's let's get into this uh first GAN trip, mate. Now you've done your time in Iraq, done your time in Afghan um in uh three R hour. Now you're in special forces, second commando regiment, or four hour at that stage. And this is your first trip into Afghanistan. Now, as an SF operator, your first and only role is to go out and prosecute fucking targets.

SPEAKER_03 2:31:42

Kinetic targeting, um deliberate attacks, um the hammer. Hammer. How is the fucking hammer? See everything is nails, man. And um the the the surreal the surreal uh thing again when you fly into a different theatre of war. Um I remember having that when I was in Iraq, it was like, okay, I'm here now and I can't go home until the jobs are done. So flew in uh I think it was dirt strip still at that point. We flew in on Hertz. What year? Um 2008. First trip. So rolled straight off selection, straight on the trip. What month is this? Um it was fighting season. This is April. April, yeah. It was April, yeah. So whatever fighting. It would have been April between April and June.

SPEAKER_01 2:32:20

No, so your first day arriving to TK, Sean McCarthy, so this is a little bit further in. Yeah, I think it was a couple months in.

SPEAKER_03 2:32:27

I think it might have been July.

SPEAKER_01 2:32:28

It have to be, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:32:29

Because then we came home in November, I believe.

SPEAKER_01 2:32:30

So I'm in the Belluchi Valley at this stage.

SPEAKER_03 2:32:32

And so, yeah, like you touched on just then, there was a it was the dirt strip, Herk straight in, um, flew into um TK, and we get to the um the old B huts at the time. They weren't, we didn't have that the flash, the flash accommodation to start with. It was a Mad Max era. I talk about uh this with Anthony Dimov uh quite quite often. Um a lot of the a lot of the um stories you hear on your podcast and around like you know, the Scojo era and stuff like that. That this is their era is very much the Gucci gear, you know, the all the all the budget and funds and all the mad shit was coming down, you're getting all the cool new toys. It's the evolution of war, exactly. And and that's what I want to make clear that there's ever there's eras of guys that were war fighters, and there's some guys that were there from the beginning to the end, and then there's guys like me that were there for the Mad Max era, and then there's guys that are there for only the the the the the new war, the new war fighter, the more experienced, uh different technology, more highly trained, and and I have these conversations often. Yeah, yeah. Wow, I wouldn't run in singles within the yeah, but then I'll I'll touch I'll I'll go further with it, but I'll I'll get to it. But um, yeah, mate. So the first day we get to country with again bag drag, you get to uh Camp Russell, and we're all put up in the old mess there, and um we had to have a in country brief, such and such. And then before that even kicked off, there was a uh the horn went off and it was like a um communications lockout, and we're like, fuck, what's going on here? And I the only time I knew the reason why I knew is because we went into a uh communication lockout when I shot old mate at the checkpoint in Iraq. So I was a bit, I was like. Oh fuck, what's going on? Evidently, first day in country was when um Sean McCarthy um lost his life. And I remember that as the first thing in country, boom.

SPEAKER_01 2:34:13

Fucking welcome.

SPEAKER_03 2:34:14

Yeah, welcome. Yeah. This is a this is Afghanistan. Yeah. It's not for beginners. Uh as someone so um, you know, well regarded, never met him. Um but very, very well spoken about from the regiment. And uh, I mean what can you say? First day in country, a guy of his caliber, this is what what this is what we're doing from here on out. Um, yeah, man. So that was that. Um, we obviously had our uh working groups before we got to country. So uh in my car, so we were driving around those SRVs that were totally clapped out from previous roles from the Western Desert, and um, you know, obviously the boys from Perth had had given a pretty good run through.

SPEAKER_01 2:34:54

Um and just for the listener, SRV is kind of like a fucking convertible special reconnaissance vehicle. Yeah, like a convertible. Uh for for the listener, if you're just wondering like a landy like a land rover defender, but it's roof cut off.

SPEAKER_03 2:35:08

Yeah, it's an old Landy that's had the roof cut off and um convertible. Zero zero armor, zero. They've actually got a big Collar in the back, so it's a big metal frame with a big spinning wheel in the back that the uh the heavy gunner sits in. So that was my role. I was uh I was a 50 cal gunner. Um so you sit in the back with the cans with all the mortar tubes, and um, because I was in mortars on um both of my rotations to um the GAN. I coupled a lot of hazing for that, but um evidently it was a critical skill set that I will learn that was very highly desirable. Everyone hates mortars till they need them exactly, mate. They uh they hate them until danger close is accurate. But um, yeah, so I was fortunate. So the guys in my car uh you got sorry, just in Gardasmort's 81 and you got the 60 mil as well. Yeah, so 60 mils come along later. We actually were able to make the Dutch were using them. Yeah, well we got ours from the JTF 2 guys. Oh, did you check? Because Kansov had that. Canadian. Yeah, Canadian dudes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:36:03

They're their top-tier uh unit, I think. Uh again for the listener, Dallas Alexander. Yeah. Had him on the podcast. Longest sniper shot recorded.

SPEAKER_03 2:36:12

Yeah. Well, there's um there's a story going around that when JTF was getting raised, they used um the format that Two Commando used to help them build their unit out. Um I could be wrong, but that's the old that's the old yarn that used to go around. But I had a so my car commando was um Axe, that's his nickname. Um, he is one of the best tag operators I've ever ever known. Um let's put it this way, he was qualified to shoot both left and right-handed with pistol, um, ampidextrous pistol shooter, ampidextrous eyes, um, and a scary fucker too, like a boxer that used to run from base out to the tag RFCR with a gas mask on, like just a just a supreme, just an elite, elite human. And Jacko, um, he was a uh blood nut from from two to RAR. Um, he'd done trips before me. So I was I was in the car on my first trip with two very qualified, very um experienced operators. Um, and that was by design, I'm sure. Um, so yeah, that was our car. Um, and I was a heavy gunner, like I said, 50 cal gunner. So had my ass in the sling, didn't have any of the um bullet protection that the um the Humvees had in Iraq or anything like that. So I was pretty well exposed, as were everyone else in the call sign in the assault teams and anyone else that had the position up top.

SPEAKER_01 2:37:28

Which which you speak about, uh Sigma Carthy, that's where he was when he was killed.

SPEAKER_03 2:37:33

Yeah, well, it's interesting because and I'll go on with this. When I mentioned before, um Johnny F, he his car actually had an ID strike and he was in the he was in the he was in the turret too, but he got um they got lucky, those boys. There's zero, I don't think there was any long-lasting or major injuries happened there, but Johnny got spat out the top, and he was a he's a tall guy and he and he landed. I'm sure he banged himself up. But um yeah, that um I've got to get him on. Yeah, he's he's a good guy, man. I haven't I haven't spoken to him.

SPEAKER_01 2:38:00

I find him on Facebook, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:38:02

Yeah, he he's a good guy, man. He's one of the guys that you you want to remember, just a classy human man. He was always a good dude, didn't he? Yeah, just a classy guy. Like he never got into the yeah, just a real pro, like just like mature, yeah. A mature video. Yeah, he was the mature and yeah, because he had me and Presto running around behind him all the time.

SPEAKER_01 2:38:20

And just quickly, just you talk about Presto, you're not texting Presto at all, are you?

SPEAKER_03 2:38:24

No, well, I haven't spoken to him for some time, but I always give him shit because he's got a massive arse, but he always tells me that's where he gets his speed from.

SPEAKER_01 2:38:30

But when was the last time you spoke to him?

SPEAKER_03 2:38:32

Oh, you mate, ages ago.

SPEAKER_01 2:38:34

So what are the chances that he sends me a message out of the blue like literally 20 minutes ago? Lies. No shit. Send me one. Loving the podcast, bro, just catching up with it all now. Wow. Today, three at uh 116. That's I thought and I thought, fuck, mate, you maybe you must have been texting, so I sent him a picture.

SPEAKER_03 2:38:52

Oh no, you're plane mode, so I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 2:38:54

Yeah, I sent him a picture of you. He has uh say good A for me. But what are the chances? Yeah, that's good. We talked about Presto and then he pops up, and that's the first time I've spoken to him in message before that was 13th of April.

SPEAKER_03 2:39:09

Yeah, right. Well, yeah, okay, mate. No, I haven't spoken to him in years. I think we touched base around a time when um one of our mates and one of your mates, uh Rob Johns, he lost his life. Um he was a three-hour hour dude, ended up doing private contracting. I believe he was in uh I think I think he spent spent a fair bit of time up in um Kurdistan and was Canadian based out of Canada. Yeah. Um I don't know. I think maybe he took his own life. I could be wrong. I don't think I am, but um, that was would have been the last time when um when Robbie Johns died, and we communicated because we're planning on maybe going over it. But yeah, just yeah, random, mate. And and that's the that's must have been burning. Yeah, but it's just that it's there's there's a and I don't want to get all crazy on you, but the there's a there's energy, man. There's energy in the world, and we all vibrate in certain frequencies. That's just yeah, and and this is why I talk about the uh the fly fisherman so much, mate, because he's uh he's had a lasting effect on my life because it just he's he's just such a settled soul, and he's you know, he he fell out of the sky in 2010, and by all means he he shouldn't be with us, many should the other guys either, but he is, and I'm grateful. And I I actually caught up with him Tuesday last week. He was uh he was fishing back where I'm from, and um just by absolute chance, I was up there doing I was up there doing something, and the world's aligned, and he was in my my village where I grew up, and that never happened, bro. And he I texted him and said, Hey man, what are you up to? He goes, I'm my way up to Snowies. I said, When? And he goes, I'm on my way there now. And we're just like, wow, like and we caught up at a Barbie and spent a couple about an hour or two with him, and then I um went on my merry way and he was getting up early to go fishing again. But yeah, bro, it's just those little it's just those little things that happen in your life that aren't explainable, you know. And yeah, it's one of those things, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:40:53

Come on, Dimov, come on the body, yeah, mate.

SPEAKER_03 2:40:55

You'll you'll be good. He's very, he's very he's very quiet, mate. He's humble, yeah. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 2:40:58

Very, very humble dude, not like writer.

SPEAKER_03 2:41:01

Yeah, mate, who? But he um yeah, consummate professional, mate. He's just one of those dudes. Um, yeah, very unassuming, but very, very, very extremely well trained. Um, yeah, so back onto the first patrol, um, we uh got all our kit, got ready to go, and and one of the formalities is when you go into country, you do a nursery patrol with the outgoing company. And um we went out on this nursery patrol, I believe it was just um, you know, a short-range thing. And because I was all G'd up, um, I'm a third, I was on the I was on the rear call sign, I was in um mortars, as I said, and I was one of the end vehicles, and we we'd um we'd been driving, went through this little village, um just like a little thing on the outskirts of TK, and we got out into the dashed a bit and zeroed our weapons. Um, and we pulled up short on this like this little hilly knoll sort of thing, and we're obviously in the Commando Conga line with all the vehicles down in front, and I was all the way in the back. And there was a little motorbike guy uh on the back of a he was on a motorbike as a pretty you know general uh means of travel over there, and he came up from behind us and um I saw he had an AK open carry.

SPEAKER_01 2:42:07

A little posty bike for the listeners, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:42:09

A little posty bike, a little Honda Posty bike anyway. Um I've spun the I've spun this um uh I've spun my gun around and just and just the 50. The 50 cal, yeah, and I'm I'm I'm on hot and I'm and I'm just I'm just staring at him down the um I'm just staring down him down the um the red dot and then um just looking at him, just tracking him because he would he was very close and he ran up into our call sign, like he drove actually through our packet, and I was like, and I said that I said to Axe, I said, Am I gonna light this gun up? Or anyway, it was like pressure was no, I wouldn't say pressure was on the paddle, but it was um I was ready to I was ready to engage this guy because I was the last car, I was like, fuck man. Well in my experience from Iraq was VBID, uh open carry AK, again different environments, fucking Taliban, you know, no uniform. Yeah, no uniform. Is this guy Taliban? So I'm like, I want to do the right thing here. Which it was probably a cop. The guy just was the normal dude. And it was just one of those, it was one of those, it was one of those moments in my life that I think about often it was like that could have gone one or two ways.

SPEAKER_01 2:43:06

100%.

SPEAKER_03 2:43:07

And you know, he was he would have been, and as as the road went, he just moseied on through our whole packet, and that that was probably every day for him. He's probably dealing with coalition soldiers all the time. But me, not me, I was like, I'm ready to I'm ready to send this guy into the shadow realm. But I um yeah, by good guidance again with Dave and Axe, who was like um with um Jacko and Axe, they just said, mate, no, this isn't all normal shit. We've been here before, just let him pass by. Um, and yeah, on he went, and that was that. So we turned around, that was a nursery patrol done. Not much happened on there, and then we just went back to uh Camp Russell. Um, but yeah, largely mate, we were going out on jobs, um, you know, kinetic targeting when when the rotation actually started to happen, and we get target packs and we get our mission sets and we'd go. Um there was a lot of kinetic targeting, sweeping clears, or what you want to consider uh dragnet operations. Um and they were predominantly in the Mirabad Valley to start with. Um what a dragnet is or or a sweep and clear is you'll put a um you'll put a blocking force down one end of a valley and you'll put the other platoon up the top end of the valley, and obviously you're not crossing arcs or anything, so you're not you're not shooting into your own call signs and stuff like that. But you the way we were trying to generate um intelligence and battlefield shaping was we'd we'd basically just drag through a village and any fighting age male um at the time would be taken off target and marched out into the dash where our VDOs were, so our vehicle drop-off points. So the vehicle drop-off points would be um, you know, like the circle of the wagons kind of situation. The mortar boys ourselves, we'd um we'd bet in um, and sometimes when they needed extra hands on target, they'd they'd split the mortar call sign. So one mortar team would stay back and provide indirect fire if required, and the other mortar team would go back as like a uh a puck, puck security and puck like um uh the X where you would accept the um fighting age males and put them in a massive conger line and walk them out into the dash. Um, but yeah, so that's what a dragnet essentially is. And a lot of the guys that came back to the VDO were quickly turned around and sent back into the village because um obviously all that biometric data and and and all those sort of things were coming online there where we could get fingerprints, retinal scans, follicle tests and stuff like that. So if we knew that they were in the system and they were bad dudes, or if they had like a gunshot residue tests and stuff like that, we could do on their hands to find out whether they were fighters or are they just farmers. Um, typically we'd we'd set up like a bloody almost like a um not a tree oversight, but like an area where we could run all these tests on them and anyone that got cleared off, they got sent back to the village, and then um the guys that we deemed needed further investigations, they'd be um bagged and tagged and put on a bird and flown back to TK.

SPEAKER_01 2:45:50

Um, but yeah, so the whereabout valley at that stage was too was quite a fucking Yeah, it was hot. It was a hot bed and it was it was uh predominantly untouched as well. We didn't venture out there because it was not not our area of operation.

SPEAKER_03 2:46:03

But it was said to us um I know that was just it was an NSF.

SPEAKER_01 2:46:08

I know the Canadians were doing some stuff through there, US obviously a lot.

SPEAKER_03 2:46:13

Yeah, well that that was where we were put into because it was like um it had it been a sanctuary for some time and it was you know it was basically designated the Badlands, I guess. I guess everywhere in Afghanistan is the Badlands, but you know that you know how every trips to Badlands. So Mirabad, Badlands Valley. Um so we were in there uh for a lot of that trip, um, among another a few other places. I'm gonna read them off to you in a minute, but um, I know there was one time when we're in the valley and I was at the VDO and I was kicking rocks because like the teams were down in the green belt and we were just there prop um postured up for any kind of indirect fire or um QRF um to go down and get them. But I was um like pulling because you know yourself, you go around and there's like little like rock sort of like wouldn't call them forts, but they're like these little rock structures that they stack up and put flags in and they're like um just like little hides, I guess. And I was just there fucking building sandcastles one day and then um ended up uncovering like a piece of fabric that was like rolled up like a cigar, but inside that fabric there was all this paper that was rolled up and it had all this um patch to and writing in it, and I didn't know the fuck off what it was, obviously I barely speak Australian, but it was um it was tied off with a nice little uh not a bow but like a like a shoelace almost anyway. I got it and I was like, I took it back to the um to my um TL and I was like, what's this? And he goes, Where'd you find that? And I showed him where. And because what you have to understand is we were always under the threat of IEDs, even in Afghanistan, because that was one of the ways that they could guarantee strike because they sort of started losing the capacity to fight us head on because we're just they're outgunned and out dominated. Yeah, dominated because of their assets and the airs, of course, yeah, all that kind of shit. So they used to do this sneaky peaky shit, right, with the IEDs, and they learned over the years that okay, the commandos they come out and they posture up on hilltops or they posture up on similar terrain. So we're gonna do like um you know, like a daisy chain of IEDs where you'll um, you know, you'll they'll circle, they'll circle IEDs in a like a long string, but there'll be a pressure plate or or or a uh ignition device further over. So they they basically get more people in the kill zone, and then someone steps on it or their vehicle rolls over it, and so they get more bang for their buck, I guess you consider that. But um, yeah, this little list um ended up getting pushed back to the int guys in um in TK and later on down the trip, it was a sort of a nothing thing, but basically what was written on that was where we'd pulled up was a spot where when fighters were coming back through um the borders, they would this was like a sort of a marry out point for them, and this is where they were passing messages because we had like um your mate Scojo, uh you know, we have we have the we have the good oil on those guys when it comes to communications, so they were shying away from using icons and telephones and stuff like that. So they're actually going back to like flags and and messages and models.

SPEAKER_01 2:48:56

Yeah, messages on fucking pigeons.

SPEAKER_03 2:48:57

Yeah, that's right. So no shit. This was one of those examples of um old board Berjo doing kettlebell circuits in the VDO while the boys are in kicking doors. Found this little piece of paper, and it actually resulted in three. I won't, I don't know how high up the chain they were, but there were three very influential um Taliban members, commanders in the Mirabad Valley for that period, and it actually led to low-level intelligence about locations and like so rat lines and places where they were moving in and out and what they were bringing and how the little like network behind the scenes was happening. It was all written on this piece of paper. So I um I got an outer boy for that, which was pretty rare. But um, yeah, it just goes to show that if if you're uh if you tuned into shit and don't sort of like just be complacent, they could lead to they can lead to results. And that was one of the examples that I took away from that.

SPEAKER_01 2:49:48

Yeah, that's fucking it's funny you say that because I remember calling in on the radio one time. We saw I saw this fucking pigeon and it had a tied fucking letter to it. I believe it. Got on the radio, boss, no shit. I've just seen a pigeon flying around like a scroll on its leg. Or what is this? Like what's going on? It's the old World War II messaging system. We'll send this up. This is a bit weird.

SPEAKER_03 2:50:07

Yeah, but it's um yeah, mate. I I remember um a lot of the patrols in that in that on that trip. Um, you know, we were everywhere from Shahidi, Assass, Sork Les, uh, Now Joy, we're in the Bellucci Valley, obviously where you were, um, all the way up into Chora. Um, Chora was a pretty uh bit of an eye-opener. Um, not so much much went on there, but reason why there's a lot of heritage there for the SASR. Um we moved into Chora town itself, and I noticed immediately the difference between the villagers and the Taliban because they're smart bastards, mate. And you know yourself, Taliban, if they're not naturally black haired, you can they they put the eye makeup on, like they they they just stand out, you know. So fair enough, they don't wear uniforms.

SPEAKER_01 2:50:51

They look like fucking Jack Sparrow.

SPEAKER_03 2:50:52

Yeah, they look they do look like Jack Sparrow, they're very dark, they've got a real dark energy about them. It is, yeah, and and you know, like their eyes are black and they're always pretty well manicured, faggy, bit gay, a bit bit Thursday night, a bit bloody, bit batchabazi, you know. Um, but yeah, so I remember rolling into um into Torah on our way to Fob Lock, where uh Lockie's Lockheed's base is named after him up there, and um we we harboured up there on our way, so obviously we stopping at um at uh resupply FOBs and stuff like that for ammo drops and food resupply and water resupply, stuff like that. Uh but yeah, I remember visually locking eyes with a dude who would come full circle later on this trip. We ended up um not myself, but I was included in one of the assault teams that actually I'll get to it, but they ended up getting this guy, this same guy, because we PID'd him from the village later on. He um he was on target and he got he got the old plastic bloody bracelets put on him in the bag and and away we went with him. But he was um he was everything a Taliban was when you saw him, and evidently it came true. Um but yeah, man, so um where were we? We went to Duralwood, uh Kazerugan, uh Garmab, Anakalay, all that sort of area. Um we're outside the wire for a really long period of time on that rotation um because we made a vehicle move down to Helmund. Um correct if I'm wrong, you guys out there, but it was about a month, it was about a month outside the wire. So it was very long. It might have may not have. It was a long time for an SF unit too. Yeah, dude. And I remember it was like a it was a couple of days of driving just to get because we had choke points. We'd go from FOB to FOB and we'd exploit targets along the way, like if we were in proximity to say a village or somewhere where we could ex execute like a dragnet or a shape or a kinetic target, we would do that and then we'd keep moving forward. But we'd call we'd call birds in that pull these, you know, if we got fighting age males or people that got pinged on the on the on the system, we'd send them back in. Anyway, um, on this vehicle move uh on our way down into Helmond, um, you know, we just basically the whole way, like I just said, battlefield shaped and and patrolled. Now Zad Musaquala, Kajaki, which was where we were intending on going. Um, and then after Kajaki, uh sorry, in Helmand, there was a bit of a uh a pregnant pause because of assets got moved over to the boys from Perth, and I'll and I'll tell you the story about that in a minute. But um, we even got up to Lashgar and Garmsir. So we were pretty well out there. Um, so I remember it was a very long vehicle um move, and we like Eddie Robo said the other day, you your final FOB you stop at is um Fob Tykes, which is a bit of a um a bit of uh ODA uh American SFG um place. Um yeah, a lot of the um who the who are the bloody Polish dudes, the Grom dudes. Yeah. When I was there, the Grom was there. There was a couple of Grom guys rolling around there, and I was trading a few cams with those guys, so I got some Polish cams and stuff like that. Um but it was good, it was a good reese up there because um we didn't have to do any pickets or anything like that because the vehicle move was so big, we just got to rack out and have a sleep, go to the gym, give a give a wash, which is very rare. But we must have we must have we must have stunk when we come in because they they quarantined us for a bit, and then um once we'd all showered and whatever the the Yanks let us in to use their facilities. Um but yeah, mate, so the final final stop before um Hellman Proppers was was five ticks. Everyone gets their postcard photo there, and then um into into uh into Helmand and um here we are, sorry.

SPEAKER_01 2:54:37

Yeah, we speak about those Polish dudes just quickly, side story here. Uh Earl Plum Lee, I had him on uh US um US Army and he's got the Medal of Honor. I was just watching the other day, another Medal of Honor has just been awarded for that same base breach, and yeah, there was a Polish guy involved, and this Polish guy was saved by this guy that's posthumously awarded the Medal of Honor.

SPEAKER_03 2:55:05

It's crazy, eh?

SPEAKER_01 2:55:06

And uh but those Polish guys mate, they were fucking.

SPEAKER_03 2:55:08

High speed guys, man, yeah. And they and obviously they're pretty quiet, like you don't hear a lot about them, but they're you talk to the guys from Perth and whatever that have worked with them and they go on uh exchange or whatever, they're they're fine.

SPEAKER_02 2:55:17

I fucking love Poland, yeah, yeah, bro.

SPEAKER_03 2:55:19

I wish we could wish I wish we could adopt a bit of that Polish Hungarian flavour here, man. With respect. Um but yeah, I'll I'll go back one little step before I get into the Holland.

SPEAKER_01 2:55:27

Zero tolerance on the immigration as well.

SPEAKER_03 2:55:29

Sam would love that. Sam would love that, mate. Um, but yeah, I'll go back a step and a little bit about those like um those battlefield shaping kinetic targets on the way down to Hellman. Was um um we'd actually made a pretty good uh relationship with JTF2 guys and the Dutch guys. I can't remember quite rightly how we ended up um procuring these 60 mil mortar tubes, but um being the mortar guys, we got a uh field qualification in 60 mil mortars from the Canadian dudes, and um it came from higher up or whatever, but they allocated. Us X amount of tubes and X amount of rounds, but then we had like a um an ability to call in more rounds when we needed them to. And the reason why we were we got onto this was because having a mortar debt out in the dash all the time, you basically just you're a wasted asset. So what we ended up deciding on the elf company rotation was that we would utilize and actually I think it changed for the whole unit going forward that any mortar call signs would be split in half and the guys would be re-rolled as um assaulters, um, Taylor and Charlie's or just filtered into the actual teams as an extra team member. Um so yeah, when we used to go into the greenbelt and the boys would get into the tick, or if they didn't have like a close range, uh, we would utilize 60 mil mortars in the greenbelt uh and we'd get positive ID or battlefield commentary from the Sierra call signs are up higher. So like if we'd um if we'd if we'd encounter a tick and then the Taliban would try to um you know escape out the back door, if you want to call it that, we'd put up like a 60 mil curtain behind them. So we'd start we'd fire over them uh to stop their cutoff, and then that would allow the boys to push forward and and and achieve the objective, which would be to kill those fuckers that just jumped out and tried to kill us. So we would effectively um be in the tick, but from the you know, a reverse slope or a or a non-specific. So we would this is why mortars and the Sierra Core signs are uh you loosely we'd call them brothers because we we reacted so well from their battlefield commentary and how accurate and and deliberate that their targeting was for us. And this is where my navigation actually got extremely good because um, if anyone that's been in mortars and you don't know how to navigate, you need to take your head for a shit, man. I man now you've got to be navigating.

SPEAKER_01 2:57:40

To be in mortars, you've got to be switched on with that shit.

SPEAKER_03 2:57:42

Mate, navigation for me now is like I I I actually I'm a nav nav geek now because I was so shit for it for so long, and this plays into running as well later, but yeah, mate, so we're pretty effective with the little 60 mils. Um unless you get like direct hit on a body or whatever, they don't they're not super effective. They are like blast radius, stuff like that, but yeah, you can't you can't replace an 81. But um yeah, those are of course, that's a quarter of the size, too. Yeah, yeah, but very effective for shaping, uh very, very effective for um getting people to move to where you want them to go.

SPEAKER_01 2:58:12

And maneuverability of the weapon itself itself, it's fucking backpack.

SPEAKER_03 2:58:16

You just put it on your back and roll, and you can spread them, you can spread the rounds out between the boys. Um yeah, on that, on that, um another thing was uh there were really big AOs. There was a lot of dry holes. So a lot of dry holes means um we're prosecuting compounds, there'd be nobody on target, and this was wearing on the guys a lot. Um, but I mean we still we still still turned up every day and still done the jobs. Um on one of the one of the trips, there was one of the guys, exceptional soldier, also jumping over a little um jumping over a little uh fence, and he got like a bamboo spike that went through his went through his armpit pretty much. He like basically skilled himself. Um, it was bleeding a lot. Um, and it was in and around like a pomegranate orchard. Uh we could we got we got brassed up, we got brassed up in that um little area there in the village, but there was nothing there was nothing of it. Um there was no follow-up and there was no like um there was no come on, which was yeah, it was just one of those random things. Um but yeah, the good thing about the mortars was made on touch on it before. They we used to get utility or substitute operators in the teams, which was good. Um, I ended up becoming the donkey for a lot of the assault teams um later down the track because another guy from 3RAR who ended up being a Bravo on that alpha trip. I'll just say his name is Troy. Um he was the Bravo and just a very experienced guy. Again, he was a tag guy who ended up in Alpha Company, um knew his shit inside out, upside down. And because I was from three, he had like um, you know, that little brotherhood thing going on. Um so I was always I was always in his ear going, Troy, you know, can I come in on the can I can I come in on the job? I don't want to sit in the video anymore. So he was always pretty, he would always let me come in. Um so and part of that I got absorbed into a Sierra call sign for most of that period. Um, but that obviously constituted me humping in their ladders and stuff, because when they were doing um compound clearance and stuff, they'd sneak in, you know, very quietly and um put the ladders up against the sign of the compound, and then when the uh assaulters would would blow in or make um make entry, if anyone popped out that uh potentially one of the exactly. So they'd be up on the wall and we'd be down on the ground, just you know, making sure everything was clear on the ground level, and then the guy on the wall would um if anyone popped out that one of the shooters hadn't caught onto or whatever, they'd just drop him from the wall. So it was like you make an entry without making entry, I guess. Um but yeah, you know, a couple of names to note there that uh again um that really helped me along in my career um was um Benny Chuck. He was obviously in that sniper element, and um me and him definitely again wasn't his best mate, but we were good mates. Um he lost his life again in that crash. Um that was a hard one for the unit for me especially. But um, and Gary Robinson, he was also pretty uh happy to have me um you know go in on target with those guys because sometimes there wasn't just there wasn't a reason to have serial call signs um operating in their specific role. So they'd go in like um half of the mortar debt would go in as like backup assaulters or you know, um cutoff or cordon or like blocking positions, that kind of thing. Hope I'm not rattling on too much. No, no, but um, yeah, and another night, another night that I was um I went out with uh Boogie. Boogie was another really high-level sniper of the unit, and uh this was a funny one for me because we had to go in on like a little um I'm not sure what it was to be honest. I wasn't privy to the intel, but we basically walked in. It was about a 5k walk from the VDO, and there was someone they had to go up and I think there was just like a little Bedouin camp or something like that, but they wanted to go up and just clear it to make sure there wasn't because we're in the we're in the arsehole of the world, mate. Like we didn't know where, like we knew where we were, but what I'm trying to say is friend and foe wasn't you didn't know. Like there was that many bad guys running around, and there was just that many people pretending to be Bedouins, and there was a time where there was a guy acting to be a Bedouin and he had camels and everything, and the boys out out went out and interdicted him and um shook him down, and he was carrying something like $300,000 worth of Afghan dollars or something, and he had like um you know, like like thumb drives and all these kinds of things. So he but he's been running, he was been doing border runs for the Taliban from pack to to AFG, really. So you never sort of let an opportunity escape you. And this was one of those nights where they went out to um have a look at this Bedouin camp, but they stopped short. Me and uh me and this uh Sig, mean we got put into this like little depression in the in the ground, and anybody that knows Boogie, he's um he's pretty light on with his um with his uh instruction. But me and this SIG were just sitting out in this in this little in this little uh area, and they went forward and they did what they had to do, and I was like, fuck man. And he just goes, You've got to just provide rear security. I was like, okay, cool. So we're sitting there, me and the SIG, and the SIG's like, I think it was his first time doing it too. Me and me and me and the SIG are just out there in the darkness. There's no one around, the videos all the way over here, snipers are gone, we're just here, and I'm just like, fuck man, where the fuck are we, dude? But anyway, he came back in, he goes, Yeah, kill the boys, well done, let's go back. So we went back. Uh it's probably a bit of a nothing story, but they're just like these little memories you have when you when you I'm talking to you about it, they just pop up. Um, yeah, another night on this.

SPEAKER_01 3:03:20

We uh sorry, just quickly, sorry, uh just back to Ben Chuck. Sure. Uh 21st of June 2010, Ben Chuck, Tim Applen, and uh Scott Parnor killed uh in a healer. Yep. Uh Downed Angel is it's fallen angel. Fallen Angel, that's the one. Yeah, they just uh just wanted to touch on that.

SPEAKER_03 3:03:38

Heavy times for the unit, man. Uh I um yeah, uh and another another little uh another little thing we did on this on our way down to Holmond, uh Mason Edwards, rest in peace. Uh he was um Jacko's best mate, obviously. I've talked about him, he's in my car, and Axe again. I'll talk about him. So us four were designated this night to go in with the um with the assaulters, and we were put into like a uh a blocking position because what the what the intent was they had um they intelligence that there was an MVI on target, they gotta go and get him by hey on my way. Um and we got put into this blocking position um where the suspected cutoff or where the squirters were gonna happen. So uh the assaulters got to the compound. Uh I think a member of the unit that's got an SG now, he was a lead scout and he used to carry an MP5, silenced MP5, um, because they used to use dogs as like um early warning sometimes, and I don't want to infringe on his story or his what he did, but used to sneak forward and um and hit these dogs with the silenced MP5, it's a lot quieter. So a little nine millimeter, and used to drop these dogs, so we'd have the surprise advantage, right? So then um we'd get in on they got in on target and they went loud. Um, they breached in um and they went in and started doing what they were doing in there, and lo and behold, we um had some squirters that night, and they were tracking right to left. Um, so Mace um started lighting them up and we just sort of engaged them and um made that was it, that was sort of I guess I would consider it my first kind of first uh contact, if you want to call it that. I wouldn't say contact, but first like you know, engagement um from that target. Engaging the enemy. Yeah, so the the assaulters went in and um assaulters went in and prosecuted the target, they got their man, and then um yeah, us four guys are out the back just um knocking down knocking down squirtes. How many? I don't know. It was dark, there was no BDO, I don't think, and then it was a um uh the guys on target got their man. I believe they got him, I believe they got him um alive, so they took him back and put him through the put him through a washing machine. But um, yeah, just bloody that was the that was the first night, and it was all happening on this on this move down to Helmand. Um another night again was um we were doing a crazy infill. So what we used to do was we'd probably it was like later on when the half options came, they'd do like offset LZs, so they'd like um they like you know, like they'd fly out and they'd drop them somewhere, but then they'd do like an infill to target, and we used to do the same thing with our vehicles. So we'd we'd drive and drive and drive, and then we'd stop, and then we'd do like a nine or a 10k infill to target. Um, and again, Axe and I were in a cutoff position this night, and where we were looking, there was a compound of interest, and then there was a neighbouring compound um just sort of uh on the other side. Uh, but we knew the target compound had the potential MVI in it, and Axe or an eye, Axe and I, the compound that they were prosecuting was right behind us, and we had like this little little mudbrick wall, and we're like facing a freshly cut like um cornfield or maize fields. That was all like ankle-high stalks, it was open ground, it was a very uh illuminated night. Uh again, the assault team went in, dynamic entry, and took care of business on target. Uh, I believe they got their man again. Um, but in that concophony of of breaching and gunfire, um, we had squirters come out of that back compound that uh trent uh that Axe and I were um um watching for squirters, and he and I both um um zapped this, zapped this squirter that ran. And um again that was in pretty close proximity to the last one. So we're as we're heathering further and further south into the um you know the Hellman Kandar region, it was we were getting more and more uh prosecution of targets, and there was more Taliban becoming more readily available, more um, more target-rich environments as we were moving. Um but one thing one thing that uh the medics talked about after that action was when they went in and um you've talked about it on another podcast. Uh I I forget the name you called him, but it was like the animal, the animal, whatever it was called. Manimal. Manimal, yeah. So half man, half animal. Yeah, and my and and after I when I heard that podcast that you talked about that, I immediately went back to this night because um on that target, the medics, I didn't see it with my own eyes, but the medics later on told us that on that target, there was like a there was a family there, um, and um for whatever reason there was a bad dude in there, they got him, but the family was fine. But there was a there was like a 14 or 16-year-old girl who had Down syndrome, an Afghan girl. Uh, and the the point of topic was that she looked like she'd been burnt from the belly button down with like third-degree burns. And the only way the medic could tell me about it was it would have had to have been like a hot water burn or like the only way they could get that sort of coverage is a blisters and it was really infected and terrible situation, and they affected um what they could on target by way of um antibiotics and and like trying to um you know, you get that doxy, stuff like that. It's like a broad spectrum antibiotic, and anyway, they tried to try to treat her wounds and stuff like that on target, but she was she was all fucked up because she was Down syndrome too. I remember being in the dark and I could hear this like fucking wailing, like screaming. Obviously, it's it's set her off because she's special needs, but like we're talking Afghan special needs, so it's a whole different level. But um, I can I could hear this screaming and I didn't know what was going on, and that's why I asked a question later on to the people that were there on the on inside the compound. I was like, what the fuck was going on in there? And they that's later on, that's what they said that it happened. Like there was a you know, there was a special needs girl in there that they'd been fucking torturing, I guess. I don't know what the deal was, but that's a level of human or non-subhuman you we're dealing with. And like people people think like now it's now it's in vogue and now it's now it's cool to talk about all the bad shit that happened over there. But these people in the in the media and shit, they don't realise what we fucking saw over there.

SPEAKER_01 3:09:36

They don't realise it's a different fucking planet.

SPEAKER_03 3:09:38

They don't realise that like it was known throughout the AO that um you know everyone's aware of what butcher buzzy is or whatever on Thursday night. But what people don't realise is people from different provin will Taliban from different provinces will move out into different areas and kidnap kids and take them back to where they're from and turn them into sex slaves or worse. I mean, what's worse than that? Boys, yeah, young boys, and you know, like it's just it's it's fucked up, man.

SPEAKER_01 3:10:03

Like you said with this, you know, this uh Down syndrome kid, you know, what they believed, and you know, when I spoke to the interpreter about the manimal, you know, obviously this other Down syndrome kid, they had him chained up outside fucking naked, yeah, because they believed that he was possessed by the devil, and that I think that's probably what they were trying to do is burn the devil out of this kid.

SPEAKER_03 3:10:21

Like it's fucking barbaric, man. Yeah, it is barbaric. It's barbaric. It's it's old world shit, it's stone age.

SPEAKER_01 3:10:28

It is it is and we talk about stone age because that land is fucking it is biblical. It's biblical, it is, yeah. They haven't, and I mean they haven't evolved, they haven't, and you know. They only involve, you know, they had a knock it at 5110, fucking old Hiluxes, but still living off the lands, you know.

SPEAKER_03 3:10:43

Yeah, man. I bet you if they dropped their phone it wouldn't break though.

unknown 3:10:46

I know.

SPEAKER_03 3:10:47

But mate, yeah, so that was um that was one little one little thing I thought it might be worth a mention.

SPEAKER_05 3:10:51

100%, mate.

SPEAKER_03 3:10:52

Yeah, um, and another thing I used to try and um look after the boys with, like I mentioned, if they have to do night raids and stuff like that, um, I'd be back at the video and in in that in the day raids or whatever, because we're doing night and day raids, um, we'd end up getting fighting age males off target, mentioned before, how we'd like um scoop them up in a dragnet and send them out into the dash, and then we'd be doing babysitting. What's a video? Sorry. Video is a vehicle drop-off point. Gotcha. So what that is is we drive to a target, we'll offset. So say if we want to go and prosecute a target, it might be 10K's away. Yeah, but we don't show our hand, so we'll actually do a 10 or a big foot in fill that night. Fuck, killer. But um, hats off to the boys, and then um yeah, so one of the things I used to do was um if I knew the guys were going in on target for like a whole night period, so they'd go in at dusk and they wouldn't come home until sometimes after the sun has come up. Um, all these goons that we get off target, they'd come back to the VDO and they'd like have ground mats and stuff that we provide for them. We'd you know, we'd give them fresh water, food, you know, basically they're living the pretty cruisy life up there in the video because we're not hurting them or anything like that. We don't we don't hurt the prisoners or pucks or whatever you want to call them. But one thing I used to practice was, and it was a little bit strange.

SPEAKER_01 3:12:04

Not according to the ABC, yeah, defund the ABC.

SPEAKER_03 3:12:08

Yeah, mate, you know what? Maybe, yeah. Mate, I am I'm uh you know, I've been pretty vocal about it on my social media um about the ABC and the bedwetter, Nick McKenzie, and all these ilk. Um so yeah, mate, I just think there's a lot more to the stories. They're cherry-picking a lot of this shit, and they're just trying to cover the cost that they've actually wasted of the taxpayers' dollars to try and get a result now because they've got the higher up saying if you don't execute and get a result, it's your ass in the sling.

SPEAKER_02 3:12:38

Yeah, of course. And that's we all know that. Yeah, we'll save it for a debrief. Yeah, we will. We should.

SPEAKER_03 3:12:43

So, mate, um, yeah. So, what I used to do was, and it might, you know, people can say what they want about this, but while ever my boys, my mates were down in the greenbelt working their fucking asses off, you know, going after the bad guys. Typically these guys that we'd have up in the up in the video were allowed to sleep and whatever else and stuff like that. But I used to I used to stand them up and make them stay awake for the whole period of the time the guys were awake. So while ever they were down in down in the greenbelt doing the work, the goo the guys that we were parked with the guys that we'd parked, they on my watch, they didn't get to go to sleep either. I'd make them stand up, I'd make them like hug each other, whatever. You know, you have to when you walk them out of the greenbelt, you just put their arms over their neck as like a yeah because they've got their got their handcuffs on anyway. So they're pretty pretty passive. Like they weren't that definitely weren't, I didn't treat them badly, nobody treated them badly. Let's just put that on the record. But my interpretation was it of if if my boys are gonna come back with their asses hanging out tired, hungry, and cranky, you guys aren't gonna sleep the period of darkness while they're out there doing the work. So fuck you guys, basically.

SPEAKER_01 3:13:45

Yeah, so from there, uh we just a quick one there. We talk about Sabi. You know, you've noted Sabi here, obviously the dog, uh, the canine uh from the engineers that just went an AWOL.

SPEAKER_03 3:13:56

Yeah, man. So there was obviously uh a job went, wouldn't say it went south, but there was some cacophony and an explosion or something that went on. It might have been an IED strike or whatever. But um I'm dark on the details. There's books out there you can pick up and get the details on. There's I think on the Gold Coast here, mate. There's actually a monument here somewhere on the Goldie. Yeah, it's like a little um war dog thing. I've actually, because I lived in Cooling Gata for a few years, and then um yeah, I remember seeing it. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am anyway. Um, yeah, Sabi. So anyway, evidently the Sabi the bombdog, massive morale boost for a lot of the guys, and the handler used to um say yes or no if we could play with her or what not play with her, but like give her affection, stuff like that. Because surprising, man, dog's been with us for a long time through all conflicts dating back to Heyday and whatever, but like there's just an energy around a dog that you can't replicate. Anyway, Sabi was like that on our trip, anyway. Um, she got lost, but fortunately the Nazis used dogs a lot. Did they? Yeah, they did. I don't know much about German history, mate. I was a three-hour. Um, but yeah, so anyway, Sabi got um picked up by some um local local Afghan dude, and he actually cared for I think it might have been about 18 months before the next trip actually went into this village, and the the guy that was there, I don't think he was a bad guy, but I think he was just a dude and he had this black labrador with him. And lo and behold, it was Sabi. Yeah, and because he kept her alive and looked after her because he knew she had intrinsic value, and I guess in his mind, and I'm and I'm speculating here, it could have been like a bargaining chip or like um or he just wanted a dog for his kids.

SPEAKER_01 3:15:30

Have the dog or yeah, whatever. Not that it's yeah, it's it's haram for them too. Yeah, it is, which is yeah, that actually that is why because it is haram. It is haram.

SPEAKER_03 3:15:39

I guess, and that's why it makes me think it might have been that is interesting, maybe just a a a play. A pla but not even a negative play, but just like maybe one day these guys are gonna come and this is the way I can prove that I'm not a bag of shit. Yeah, so I get fucking money out of it. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:15:52

So not so haram.

SPEAKER_03 3:15:53

The dog chewed my couch. Give me three thousand American dollars.

SPEAKER_01 3:15:56

Fucking nugget. Yeah, if you're up there, Merv. Give him a give him a pat rice. Fucking nugget, eating fucking seats. Shout out to Gav Castro, it was your scooter that he ate.

SPEAKER_03 3:16:06

Oh no wonder he had a gut ache. But yeah, mate, moving on. Uh I've eventually arrived at Hellman, so um, this is one of the key, key, key memories for me going into Hellman. It had so much uh media around it, it was the worst place in the world at the time. Um and yeah, so Alpha Company Mortars, Hellman, Kajaki Power Station job.

SPEAKER_01 3:16:24

So And what was the the obviously the air operations uh Hellman, but what's what's the the job role? What what what difference from that from what you were doing in Tarncout, Brisgan province?

SPEAKER_03 3:16:36

Yeah, so what was told to us was um they're trying to install a new hydroelectric um power generator in that area, but it kept coming under attack of um Taliban and they were destabilizing like um logistical train operations and stuff like that. So they sent us guys down there to obviously not so much directly um go after anyone specifically, but just mainly have a presence and battlefield shape um and potentially scare them away for a block period where engineers could go in and actually put this shit together. And I say that with um modesty because it went trip after trip, rotation after rotation. Just high singing, sorry.

SPEAKER_01 3:17:12

Yeah, what is that? Is that it's not our fucking tinnitus something for listeners. Sorry, we can just hear a high pitch noise. I can hear it.

SPEAKER_03 3:17:22

I just offers it.

SPEAKER_01 3:17:23

I thought I'd it's not with the headphones on.

SPEAKER_03 3:17:26

It's outside. It's outside, yeah. That's all right. We both looked at each other then. We've both got tinnitus.

SPEAKER_01 3:17:32

I can hear it coming from the what is that?

SPEAKER_03 3:17:34

That's not yeah, mate. So yeah, so subsequent trips after ours, um the Kajaki Dam project was an ongoing thing because it was just such a uh uh strategic point for the Taliban and for us. Um, but yeah, mate. So obviously we left um Tykes, got into Helmand, and we were driving along, and this is where I talk about uh Johnny F again. We crested over this um it was almost like a gateway. Way, if you will, into this uh like a there was a big bowl, there was a big 270-degree mountain range where we had to go over this spur line and then drop down into this sort of valley bowl. Um, and they went up and over and they're going down the path and down the road there, and then once they got down onto the flat, um, they had an ID strike. And I was I was still back behind the the spur line at that time, but we heard the bang, saw the saw the um smoke and dust and everything go up, and it was like you know, come across the comms, all call signs, all call signs, um, blah blah blah is hit an ID. Um, wait. So anyway, we're waiting for it, we're waiting for it, and then it comes out um everyone in the car's fine, we're gonna have to blow the vehicle in place. So it was one of those things where um on the other side of this, on the other side of this valley was a V was a village that we had to go, and we had high-level intelligence of MV to HV guys that were on target. We decided that the the ground was so flat and it was just a hotbed of IEDs, and we'd only the the guys had only driven like 200 metres into this flat area and they've already hit a strike, and we couldn't discern whether it was an old Soviet minefield or it was like uh an IED that was just well placed. But what you don't want to do there, and what evidently our leadership did right was we don't want to give it the chance. We don't want to draw, keep driving, and potentially hit these mines or IEDs. So anyway, we pulled back, and again we're on another vehicle move. So we again we've driven for days and days and days just to get here, but we uh ended up turning back around and uh got and went around the back of this spur line, um, which was obviously less ID'd, um, and we didn't have time to waste clearing the original route because we didn't want these guys to squirt anyway. Um, because they were coming back through Quetta in the camp, because that's how the tram from Quetta to Kandahar down in that area was made known to me. But anyway, we linked up with these ODA and ODB guys, so the ODA SFG, I think it was 1.5 or something, and then the ODB guys they had the 120mm mortars, just postured out there randomly, like we didn't even know. But big bombs, big bombs, yeah. And the reason why we linked up with those, again, I'll talk about Troy. There was a communication between the commandos and and the ODA guys, and basically we um they give us a couple of vehicles, they gave us this vehicle, um, and it was a Hum V, one of their vehicles. But they said, Yeah, you take this, and we'll just jump in the car with these other guys. And obviously, the other vehicle was no, it was non-serviceable, so we blew it in place, thermited it. And then um yeah, so they picked up the car and we kept on with our kept on with our mission. And um, this is where I've got a cool little clip where we had a um uh an Apache gunship fly really low over the top, almost hit the air, as I could see the pilot, man. It was so it was one of those memories, you know. But anyway, he um we moved into this into this area um and we set up the tubes, the assault teams um broke off, one went to the other side of the valley, uh, away from us, and then our platoon moved up. There was like a um a little there was like a little um a final a final kind of berm, if you want to call it. And you've had him on here, um uh Justin O'Connor, his team was up front, and they were they just had the vehicles sort of on the back slope, but the 50 cals and the and the heavy guns were just like like how armored do when they do like turret, turret up, turret up, it's just creep, creep, creep. Um, and in the in the same sequence, we'd better in all four tubes. Um, and the Sierra Core signs had moved up to the high ground and would give us really, really good uh battlefield commentary. And that Sierra Call sign was I said before, it was Gary Robinson and uh Ben Chucks, those guys. Um and we betted in and we set up shop and we'd hadn't been there probably 30 minutes and we started receiving counter battery uh counter battery fire. So we betted in and then um and then they started to send mortars our direction and they had us line OT and we were just like shit, like they've one's fallen short, the next one's gonna go behind, and then I you know, as a mortarman, they were like they were just bracketing us, I guess. So anyway, the first one hit and then um then the boys up front just like the Sierra Corps ones nominated where the splat where the where the uh splash came from, and then the boys up front like threw a couple of 50s downrange just to sort of quell them, and then um uh from there, mate, we just sort of just settled in, and then this is where one we we were uh engaged there for a couple of days. Um where was I? Um yeah, so we we received counter battery fire, and then the Sierra call signs were noting that there was enemies moving in and around, and we'd noticed on the lead-in they started evacuating all the women and children out. So that's a key indicator for any combat indicator. Anybody left on target wants to be there, anybody that's on target and wants to be there is pretty much in our in our intelligence and everything that we garner from um patterns of life, stuff like that, our fighters. So um Sierra Core Science started calling in 10 10 trigger grids, and um, because they were getting positive ID through um telescopic lenses and and glass, yes, fighters on target, PKMs, uh AK-47s, and guys moving around with with um little bikes and going into defensive positions, right? So they're basically preparing, like getting into their defensive positions for um the potential for us to move across this open ground and uh and start giving it to us. But um, so Robot Robo's calling in um all these 10-figure grids, and we were there for I think we were there for two, maybe two to four days in this one position, and we were just like we're mortaring these guys, just mortar, mortar, mortar, and um uh yeah, so they were actually resupplying their their guys with like technicals, if you will. So Rob Robert's telling us that okay, we've got a we've got a you know, you know, Hylux moving in, he's got bloody um, you know, six fighters on the back. Um, and this is how good these ceracol signs were, mate. He was giving his grid references to where they were moving to rather than a stat a static position. So he was like calling calling fire in on where the uh vehicle was going to be. And um, mate, from from all reporting, this it was I'm pretty sure it was Jacko that fired this and got a direct hit on this technical that was moving into resupport these guys. Direct hit, got six guys with one round, so direct hit mortar, hit this car, blew the blew the guys to pieces. And we're on reverse slope too. So we're not we're shooting blind, we can't see any of this. But then Sierra Callson's like, yep, um, Pfeiffer effect, boom, boom, boom, couple of rounds here, and then we switch back to the village. And what we were trying, what we were evidently doing was we're blowing up their defensive positions and and like peeling them back, peeling them back before we committed to the assault. Because basically what we were what we're doing was we were gonna we're gonna basically unharden their target and and kill as many guys as we could in that engagement. For then at at the night time, the the assault teams would walk in on target and just clean house. Um but before that could happen, mate, we um and and and to give an indication of how many rounds we we uh fired, I got a photo of myself. Um I'm sitting when we when we pulled out of there, I'm sitting on the edge of the base plate hole, uh, and my legs are dangling in the hole. So it's like it's a good two foot deep, or no, I wouldn't say two foot, but it's a good like uh foot or knee high hole where the base plates we had to we had to move them and re and re-bed in because we'd fire in so many rounds at this at this village, at these targets. Um but yeah, before we got to uh the assaulters got to go on target, it was around the same time that there was a SASR engagement. I believe it was a a decorated engagement. I won't I won't say it was Dono because I don't think it was, but it was something around that because I know that was the trip, and how I know this was when a guy, I'll call him Simo, he was a he was a uh a doggy, and when we ended up getting back to TK, I was hanging out with my mate Jonesy in the um in the clerks in the clerks room there, and the the cats came back through, the SASR guys come back through, and Simo had been bloody cooked, like he was on a barbecue. So their vehicle had been hit with an RPG or something had happened, and I won't I don't I won't talk to it because I wasn't there and I don't know the story, but the reason why I think it was Dono is because I was thinking it was that same engagement because there was that um he went and went and saved him. But anyway, Simo came back through and mate, I mean like he had his arm had been burnt and melted, he had on his face and like all of his body, like and he was didn't bother him, but it was just like I saw him and I was just like fucking he looked like a cooked octopus, man. Because he, you know, if you had grilled octopus, he was all melted and shit, like not in a bad way, it didn't stop him from functioning or anything, but it was just like where like the RPG had probably detonated and like all the liquid metals started spinning off it, and he's um he just copped all the burns from it, you know, and it was just like holy fuck. And why I mentioned that is because when we're in Hellman, we were about to press this. The assault teams are about to press this village and and and and finish it all off. Um, but as you know, with the golden triangle and different levels of assets to be able to go forward and do like a direct proper kinetic target at the action, you need different levels of um AME and you need different levels of um predator and and and and and specter gunships and stuff like that. And all our assets went off station because of this action that happened wherever the boys were, and um that pulled our operation up, and then we had to basically turn tail, and that was the end of that. That was the end of that trip. Um the only thing that we were uh the only thing that I was confident with was the BDA that was done from the Sierra Call Signs, and they said that just from the mortars for that period of time, um, that they were able to say that there's many, many um K EKIA on that target. And um when they looked further in there, there was um like tunnel systems that were built under this village where they were able to use like like the Viet Cong used to use, I guess. And why I said before about Whiskey 108, I spoken to um one of the SASR guys that was there, and I said to him, I go, It sounds a lot like what I experienced in Hellman with the way that they were able to move underground and resupply and like have caches and stuff like that out of sight. So that was like uh that was a win for us because we were able to identify that we're in the right spot and we're fighting the right guys, and we were pretty well effective with EKIA there that day.

SPEAKER_01 3:28:23

Yeah, right. And so that was the end of that trip, mate. Let's take a quick break. Yep. So we just wrapped up on your first trip to Afghanistan, this time again, as we spoke about SF2 Commando or four Irish, should say, still at that stage. And just quickly, I want to touch on, you know, I know you only spend uh a couple months in country before you got to head back over Afghan again with uh however with uh Charlie Company. How did you go transitioning back into a first world problem civilian life, you know, just life in general, you know, you you you go from such a high performing environment and operating in scenarios that the general populace had no fucking idea about, and you're getting back going through a drive-thru, going to McDonald's, and you know, there's no threat. You know, we talk about this fourth dimension, you know, fourth, fourth dimension of it was a 360 battlefield, yeah, you know, plus yeah, below everything with with baggage.

SPEAKER_03 3:29:29

It's four dimensional. Yeah, yeah, man. So um coming back to coming back to uh Cranullah man, I um where were you living? In Cranullah down in the shire. Just riding down there, yeah, yeah, yeah. Straight in. But um, yeah, man. So I remember coming home. Um there wasn't too much of a culture shock to me. Obviously, you go from being at war to being at Cranolla, but again, with the early part of my story, like the predisposition to to trauma and and that crazy kind of life was just sort of the pattern now. So when I went back, I didn't really have any problems. But what what I did notice was that um there was a lot of um hypervigilance. Uh I was always like um just on edge. Yeah, just on edge for not really, for not really any sort of real direct reason being, you know, intelligent and knowing that there's no one trying to pop out and shoot me, but you can't sort of untrain that shit when you just you know, like um Where's my rifle? Yeah, and just being like it was always me. But yeah, yeah, yeah. Where's my rifle? Yeah, that's right. Like I'm gonna fill where's my rifle. Yeah, yeah, fine. But um being being um being a quick, quick turnaround too. So I sort of when we come home off that trip, there was the uh obviously the quick um the break over the Christmas period, and then we just went over into the next year. Um it was back more range time, more um, you know, more more courses and just more team building, more just sharpening of the sword, mate. And then um it wasn't long um after that. So that's the people that went over, so the company that went over after Alpha, I think we were replaced by, I think we were replaced by Delta Company. I may be incorrect here, but I know the one that was following Delta was Charlie Company. Um, and how I ended up with Charlie Company was this um was um one day um, and I spoke to it on Sam's podcast, uh his cousin Scott Palmer, who obviously passed away in the helicopter crash that we mentioned before, he came down to Elf Company and said, Um, hey mate, basically, do you want to uh swap trips? I've got some stuff going on in my life. Um, Mick Craig sent me down here to find a body that would be willing to go. And I was like, Yeah, cool, I'm single dude, I'm ready to go, I'm keen to go. Um, but yeah, basically he said, right, we've got to come up to Charlie Company now and we've got to do the signover. And um, and away we went. So Scotty took me up to Charlie Company HQ, and I walked into Mick Craig's office and he started laughing because we've got history, obviously. But he was like, mate, you just got back from Alpha, yeah, how was it? Blah, blah, blah. Very direct, very CSM-like. And he goes, Um, yep, you want to come? I was like, Yep. And he goes, Right oh, no worries. Um, I'll let your CSM know and we'll do the paperwork. Go and uh pack your shit and get ready to move into um Charlie Company. And there was a few of us that are in that in that um move from Alpha across to Charlie Company in the similar circumstances. Uh, can't talk to why or what, but there was the guys like I mentioned before, um Declan Redman, he's been in your podcast before. He was a guy who came over from Alpha and Um a friend of mine, uh Dingo, and another Sierra Call sign called um Jimmy. We'll just call him Jimmy. But um, yeah, us guys went over from memory uh and yeah, we started the workup for for um for the Charlie deployment, which was only roughly six months after I got back from my last deployment. So he obviously had that space where that follow-on company was overseas, and then we were gonna um get over there and replace them. So um, yeah, so Charlie, so Charlie trip was a little bit uh I wouldn't call it uneventful, but it was a lot less kinetic and a lot less um aggressive than the previous ones. Well, for me anyway, there was lots more dragnet operations from memory. Um, there was one where we got spun up for QRF uh in TK Town where uh an Aussie uh calls on, it was like an MRTF or something, I believe, had a hit an IED and a BM and we uh mounted vehicles and we had the BM recovery vehicle go out and and rescue that. Got some pretty cool footage uh pictures of that, just how effective the BM was for ID strike with that V-shaped hull. Um, mate, um there was one where um we got just quickly, this this rotation with Charlie Company, uh the mission, is is it different from that first rotation? It wasn't really, not from my level. Just similar. Similar sort of style. Um, I think that there's a few different dynamic changes with relation to um duration of outside the wire, um trying to run better uh intelligence-led targeting and not sort of being exposed for as long. Because remember what I should have said was in on this trip, the name change, the unit name changes happen now. So in on my from my last trip, it was four AR, and this trip now is two commando. So we went through the unit change. Um, and one of the byproducts of that was in which why it mightn't have been as aggressive was because we went over there as a new unit. Um, we basically, in the eyes of the world um fighting forces, we were an unknown product, so which they were sort of apprehensive to be able to give us assets or if we needed sort of bids and bobs from different armies, they weren't so forthcoming as they were once upon a time, um, which may or may not have had an effect with um why we were tasked with what we were up to. Um and the stories will probably differ if you speak to guys who are on that rotation anyway. But um, from my account, um, yeah, lots of dragnet, lots of cordon and clear. Um, yeah, like I said, there was uh we got into a tick, and I won't be able to tell you where it was because I can't remember at this point where we were and what we were doing, but we got into a tick in a dry riverbed um where uh a fella called Gates, um, Dingo was up the front and he was um doing the doing the work with the boys in his assault platoon. Gates um blew his ankle out. I think he's he he was because he was a big dude, a heavy guy, he sort of jumped in somewhere and fucking rolled his ankle, broke his ankle real bad. And um Redmond Declan Redmond, he was um the guy that was tasked with getting him back to the dry riverbed where I met Declan in this uh sorry, I I had to cross the riverbed and get into the green belt where um Deck basically um handed over the authority to for me to carry him out. Uh and because I was I was uh a bit of a gym bro, uh I um had to carry this kid out. He was 100 kilos if he was 50, but because he had armor and all this shit on too, so I was um I was fucking had this guy across my shoulders, he was carried him out. I'm pretty sure I compressed some discs that day, mate. But I um I got him evidently got him out and got him back to alcohol sign and he was basically stretched it out, or I can't remember if he was stretched it out, but he was no longer um no longer in the in the firefight from that. Um yeah, but by and large, mate, I think um what the Taliban were doing on that trip, they were sort of they were practicing new techniques by way of they put one of their guys out front with a P PKM or a AK and they'd let off a blast, uh let off a burst, and then they'd try and retreat. And what they were trying to do was they're trying to draw us in exactly right, and what they were doing there, they were trying to effectively understand our TTPs on on contact. So they were training themselves and like learning about what we're up to. Um, you know, and a good example of that was uh that's it, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 3:36:22

Like as you guys were getting better or uh coalition forces getting better, the Taliban were also getting better with either setting IDs or setting ambushes because then again, they're understanding TTPs on the coalition side.

SPEAKER_03 3:36:35

Exactly, and that and it's the easy learning experience that they garnered from the uh al-Qaeda in Iraq, mate. That's how they started developing their you know ID technologies and where they put them and make them without metal, and they're picking up on our ability to pick up the metal signature and stuff like that with bed. Um Hesto talks about where he lost one of his boys with a with a small small metal Scott Smith. Yeah, that's right. So yeah, um, but mate, yeah, so that's what they were trying to do. They were getting into the come on. Um a good uh good example of that was um there was a skirmish in Zhao 2 uh uniform platoon. It was in the northern Kendar area um and the Taliban they were practicing the come on, like I said, and um from memory uniform uh got into it pretty well in that valley. Um and they were like really pushing the pushing the engagement and the um again having a mortar debt in their call sign bedded in. Um, you know, the boys were calling us forward saying, you know, grid ref, boom, boom, boom, and uh the mortars were pretty effective that day um in in closing out their battle. The boys they got a lot of um EKIA and anyone that was um anyone else that was there that was out of reach, we we knocked them on the head. Um yeah, and then off the back of that there was a um yeah, for for us it wasn't very much, or for me, um there was I can't really remember too much. Um probably too for many two TBIs by now, but I um I remember One City for one, that's changed your life. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You've got to have a few, as Jock would say. Yeah, yeah, I've changed now, apparently. Um yeah, so I remember uh on one of the final jobs there, um uh Todd Langley again. Remember how I was like the bastard child of the assault team. So I I got Toddy boy uh let me go in um with those guys and um it was a bit of a tear, he was a bullet magnet, so there's a bit of a bit of a sporadic fire there. Again, they were just trying to do the come on, but um I jumped into like a little bit of a depression in the ground there and fucked my ankle up pretty bad. Um nothing of any, nothing of any major. I was able to walk and whatever, but once I stopped and took my boot off, it fucking blew up. It was no good. Um but what what did happen off that um off one of those uh ticks was there was an AK ball off target, um, which was pretty well fucked up, had like a bullet round through it or something. Anyway, I got my hands on it, um, I was humping it out and it came back to TK. Um from memory, I was believe it was missing some working parts, but um me being who I am, I I you know I wanted to souvenir it, I guess, um, for lack of um better understanding for the people out there. I wanted to bring something home. I probably didn't think about the gravity of it at the time because it was um that's sort of my personality type though. Like I sort of, if I don't have a problem with it, why do you're not the first and you're not the last? Yeah, but too, man. Like for me, it's like if I don't have a problem with it, why do you have a problem with it? Yeah, because it wasn't serviceable, it wasn't like I was gonna head down to Banksdown and start, you know, whatever. But um mate, anyway, lo and behold, here I am. I've got this AK, uh broken AK, and um it was we're getting ready to rip out a country, and I've um I've I've got it in my A-bag. And the only uh thing that sort of saved me later on down the track was um I had written a letter, handwritten letter, and I laminated it and I cable tied it to the the actual piece, and this is where it comes um to premeditate it, obviously. So I wrote this letter saying large and large and short. Short was um this is Dean Burgess, this is my number. The reason why this is here is because I want a souvenir. Um I know I I I uh if it's gonna cause the unit any misrepresent representation, if it's gonna cause trouble for the unit, myself, or anyone else, take it away and destroy it because I don't want any downstream problems. Anyway, that's the last I heard of it. Ended up um uh I think I went home about a week early because I fucked my ankle up and um was getting repatriated to Australia. Anyway, I got when I got home, um I had all these phone calls and a couple of boys are in country ring me up, going, hey man, what's in your bag? And I was like, what are you talking about? Anyway, story goes that um um the head shed was trying to get me on the phone saying what I'd done, but I was clued up to it because I had a bit of a um bit of a street sense about me from being in three IR and dealing with like debt collection and stuff like that in the cross and a few different things I was involved in. But anyway, um it just sort of just paid it off and I said whatever it is, it'll come back to me when I when when when it comes time. Um and it did eventually, but I'll get to that. And the best thing about the um the end of the Charlie trip was um because we were a new unit and two commando hadn't really had many communications with uh the Yanks and stuff like that. A friend of yours who was a pilot for Task Force Wolfpack, um, this is when it really started to become too hard for operators to work because they started changing the rules around um when you're allowed to go and affect targets, which they switched it over to day raids. It's totally dangerous. Yeah, just a really stupid which elevated uh wounded in action, yeah. Threat level. Yep. They can see you coming, man. Before that, we owned the night and we were successful, and the boys from Perth were successful. But um, yeah, so we were short on airframes, but um, on the back of that trip, I believe that's where it started. So Charlie, Charlie had gone into this really good relationship with Task Force Wolfpack, and they had, you know, the Apaches and the Little Birds and all the different uh black hawks, sorry. And um, that moving forward with two commando became a a good option. Um, and I probably won't have these units right because I was gone by that stage, but when the DA DEA jobs and stuff like that started coming downrange, you know, they had good reflections upon Wolfpack and going forward for later on operations. But yeah, mate, that's by and large is the last um trip for me. Um, the only other thing I would note about the Charlie trip was that they would follow us and they would hastily lay IDs on what they anticipated where we would drive. So they wouldn't even bury him anymore, they would just lay him out on the ground for us. Um, and one of the Parko brothers, uh, different Dave Parker, one of the Parko brothers. Good dudes. Yeah, great dudes. Also influential, influential in my um in my career by just way of being good blokes. And um I spent a lot of time with them on in Cornella. Yeah, real good guys.

SPEAKER_02 3:42:47

And at the riots, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:42:49

What riots? It's just a barbecue, mate.

SPEAKER_01 3:42:52

It was a barbecue.

SPEAKER_03 3:42:53

But um, yeah, mate, good guys. And um the oldest brother was on that trip with me, and uh he was um, yeah, we had an older brother, younger brother sort of love-hate relationship as it goes, but we're we're we're good mates now. Um so yeah, mate.

SPEAKER_01 3:43:07

Um just quickly, mate, AK like the that story just fucking dissipated. What what what what what happens here?

SPEAKER_03 3:43:13

Uh the okay, so what happened was um obviously you get investigated. I got investigated, yeah. I did get into trouble, and fair enough too, probably. Is it uh within defence or so it went to defence, uh, but because it was yeah, the because they had an ADF, uh sorry, a uh AFP contingent over there. Fuck knows why, but it and and and and I the only way I can remember it is I had this big red folder and it was Adfuss on the front of it with a big like that big giant dick of an envelop uh uh uh emblem they've got. But anyway, it was AdFus and it was like the case number and Burgess and all the fucking all this shit. But anyway, fortunately for me, um, my RSM at the time, um, and this is why I say to you, it's important for people that are getting in to look after certain people in certain roles. Because when um when a lot of our hierarchy wanted to come and get their photos taken out in the dash or whatever out in the mountains, they'd fly them in, they'd come and like give us a morale speech that didn't really go anywhere. But the RSM came out on one of these things, and I was, you know, because I was in the mortar team, all the shooters were resting, and I was like showing holding his hand and showing him around. I say that in jest, I didn't actually hold his hand. Um, but it was like um, you know, taking him around, showing him how it all works, and blah blah blah, because for what it's worth, he's got no idea. Yeah, of course, yeah. So um, and I think for Battlefield tourism, yeah, a little photo op. And um, I think off that, I think it might have just like put it put a memory in his mind that Burjo's actually not a bad fella, you know, no matter what anyone says, no matter how many times he calls in morning radio and starts talking shit. We're gonna give him a pass. But um, yeah, so anyway, Adfuss got involved. Um, and this is how I lost all my um photos and my laptop and all this kind of shit. Like my bags got dragged, and um I never saw them for two years, I don't think. Um but they were stored away in the little the basements over there in Canberra where AdFus was, and basically they built this case, they spent more money on the printing than they actually got out of the um out of trying to get me for the the the charge ended up being broken down to um souveniring the battlefield. And the last time that was ever heard was in World War I, I believe. World War I or some some shit or World War II maybe. Oh, you know what, to be fair, I'm the only one who got caught because I know it's happened a lot over the years. Fucking tell me about Vietnam. But it was um, yeah, mate. So obviously that uh my RSM looked after me really well, and every time they tried to get me up on a charge, he'd find a he'd find a flaw in their charge sheet or their their their attempt to charge, and he's basically just whittled him like war of attrition, just wore them down, wore him down, and it just made it all just went away. And after the fact, um there was a bit of a joke around the unit. Obviously, there's now um safety briefs and and things, probably with my name on them somewhere. But it was like it's pretty funny for me, maybe not for the guys at the time, but pretty funny now. Um there was a saying in the unit that uh again the fly fisherman talks about it all the time. Um the RSM said it was a stroke of genius that he wrote that letter because that's what got him off. Because whilst it was premeditated, he also admitted that he knew it was wrong. And if there was gonna be anything wrong with it, do the right thing and fuck it off, and don't try and jump all over me for being a dumb digger because it is what it is at the end of the day, and um photos are cool, but AKs are cooler.

SPEAKER_01 3:46:36

Did but did the AK go back to Australia? Did they check your bags in Australia or was it no?

SPEAKER_03 3:46:40

It got caught over in um It would have been Aquis. Yeah, it was actually, yeah, yeah. So the QE, funnily enough, the QE that was so the QE, I think he blew the whistle on me. But anyway, yeah, long story short, um, it got washed. Um I didn't get into any trouble uh more than just a bit of um unnecessary heat around the unit. But um yeah, like I said, AKs are cool in photos. Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 3:47:03

I'm fine I love fucking AK, mate. I carried AK in Iraq for quite a number of years and fucking love that gun. Yeah, they are. I wish I mean I wouldn't say I wish I brought one back, but yeah, but mate. Wish we could have them here in Australia.

SPEAKER_03 3:47:15

Well, for me, man, it's I'm always and I'm not saying this to be yeah, I'm not saying this to be a hero, but I'm always trying to push the envelope, even with my uh post-service too, mate. Like I get into uh ultra running um later on down the track, but just anything I try to do in my life, I really try and push push the limits with it. And you know, obviously that's no no different. Um but yeah, mate. So coming back after the Charlie trip, uh it was 2010. I left Charlie Company for rehab. I picked up obviously that ankle injury and I had a few, um, I had a few injuries just from a service, obviously shoulder, wrist, a couple of different things. Um, but the ankle evidently wasn't coming good, and I'll find out why later down the track. And I also um it it'll it'll make sense why we know that the army doctors are dog shit compared to civilian doctors. Um so in that in that um period of time in 2010, um, I was on a rear details kind of position uh and I got put on a driver's course. Um and I was on my birthday actually, it was 2010, uh, April 23rd, 10:30 in the morning. I was driving out um Bangor Bypass in a mog and uh came across an uh MVA, a motor vehicle accident, and um I didn't I couldn't see any emergency service vehicles anyway. I ended up getting out of the truck and taking the med kit with me and running all the way down. It was a couple of hundred meters down to this guy. He was on a uh council, a council uh tractor rollover. So it rolled over on Bangalore Bypass, and old mate copped some burns and he was all fucked up. And in the process, he um he he had his arm hanging out the tractor window, but when the tractor rolled, it rolled on his arm and it basically amputated it just um just uh below the elbow almost. It was when I got there, old mate was in cardiac arrest um and he was having a real hard time, but he um was bleeding real fucking bad anyway. There was just people standing around like classic, like classic um deer in the headlights. The sippies are there, they've just got like towels and like hold them up as like a screen. No one's actually trying to affect anything. And I got there and I'm thinking, what can I do? What can I do? I thought I'd be helping somebody else out, but evidently I was the guy first on scene to to try and save this fella with knowledge of medical. Yeah, the only reason why I mentioned this is because I get an attaboy from a pretty uh pretty esteemed unit member, but also to now that I've been in social media, I lost contact with this uh bloke and his mum, and his mum uh thinks the world of me. And um I I'm actually going to catch up with them at a later date. But um I think it's important to just go on about how the training we receive and how effective it can be and what it can actually do for just a regular person. 100%. Yeah, and and it's one of these leadership skills and skill sets that you learn in that job that you don't really uh find out how um critical they are until you need to use them. So um anyway, this rollover, arm was amputated, people were screening him, not actually helping him. Gave him a few chest pumps, got him going, but as I was pumping him, because obviously I was decompressing his chest, he had arterial bleeding in his arm and fucking rockets of water, uh rockets of bloody blood were squirting out of his arm, and I was going all over me anyway. I didn't have a T I didn't have a uh tourniquet with me, and uh I'll get to talking to Jeremy Holder after this, but I um uh there was a big Maori bloke there and he goes, What can I do, bro? And I said, uh give me that, give me that surf leash because there was a because he had a he was a tradeie. And I said, give me a spanner and a screwdriver. Anyway, he um a bit of the country boy coming out of me here, but anyway, he got the leash off. Yeah, Dean MacGyver. So anyway, he um it's better than Dean Crenshaw. That fucking bang away at the moment, but anyway, um, so basically got him upright and started packing his wound. There was a there was a um uh a the first aid kit, like I said, and they said, What can I do? And I said, Um, get a pad and a pattern pen and start taking this down. And it's like a dream to me because I just remember that the training just took over. I have a have like a an out-of-body experience. And um, I just said to this lady, I said, take these details down as I'm asking him, don't say anything, just jot down what I'm saying and what he's saying. I've got the big Marie bloke, got the leash, and we've um I've got this. Let's win, I've win-lassed this um this this uh this surf uh surfboard leash around his arm above the elbow. I'm I've got it between the the mouth of the spanner and the and the tail ring of the spanner, and I'm win-lassing this thing up, and then I use the screwdriver to hold it as like a locking thing. And Jeremy Holder actually had um who's who's TAC med now. He um, I don't know whether it was him or one of the other medics, but they're extremely highly trained. And this just bounced into my memory of like farm tools or sticks or whatever it was. So I just put it together in my brain. It affected the tournique for what it was, wrote on his forehead the time the tawny went on. As I was fixing this guy up, I was saying to the guy, I said, What's your name? And he was saying his name, Rod McCarthy. I said, Where you from? Where are you from? She's dropping it all down. I said, What's your phone number? And he went for his second, he went for his second round of um cardiac arrest and he went down again and pumped him again, got him back up. I'm I didn't realise until after the time, but I was saturated with his blood. And um the Ambos by this time, the fires and the Ambos had come on scene. Anyway, they basically took over custody of him, they got him got him up and got him in the back of the thing. And um the lady handed over the the paper to the Ambo, and then the the fire chief or whoever he was, he took me, he said, come with me, mate. And I was like, is everything okay? Like I thought I'd done something wrong because of my past. Like I get a lot of charges in the army, like anybody, a figure of authority. I thought, fuck him, get my ass kicked or something. So anyway, he grabbed me, he just sort of grabbed me by the scruff of the neck. So I guess I was a bit dazed, a bit like um, not wouldn't say in shock, but I was sort of like I was so focused. Yeah, I was just so laser focused on what was going on. So he sort of grabbed me by the collar and just took me to the back of the fire truck. I said, Is everything okay? Have I done something wrong? He goes, No, mate, we just need to give you a wash. I said, Why? And he goes, Look at you. And I looked down, mate, and from my neck to me to my boots, I was fucking saturated with this fella's blood. Anyway, the message came back to um they got my details and the police got my details, and then I basically went and just jumped back in the truck. Went up and turned around and went back to the unit. And by the time I got back to the unit, the message had already been passed back to the RSM, which was also the same RSM that had got me out of the fucking sling with the AK. Anyway, I got back to the unit, I'm walking, walking in, and um the younger of the Parko brothers came up to me and was like, mate, fucking well done. You know, and this guy's an elite sniper, he's done all kinds of trauma, he's done all the PAFA course, and he was, I think he was there for um Jammo, maybe. He was one of the guys that helped out Jammo when he got got the neck. But um, there's these little things about the people that have been in my career where he was, yeah. Yeah, so mate, and I'll say this openly again, like I was nowhere near the best operator in that unit, but the training and experiences that I've had with guys that are elite, elite level guys, like old the old guys and the guys like like the Pacos and the blah blah blah. I've mentioned all their names before. Um they raised me up to where I was, and um just getting out of boys from those guys uh was great. Uh the unit got a good, I guess, um wouldn't say I repaid the unit me doing that, but what I did do was you know effectively show that the training that we were receiving, even at my level, was high, extremely high level. Ended up saving that guy's life. The um the ambos came back later and said to the unit that if if your guy didn't do what he did that day, we'd be burying him. And on the back of that, his mum writes me a letter almost every year. Seems to lost contact and stuff like that. That hasn't been the um Christmas cards and whatever. But now that I'm back on socials, they found me again. And it was almost immediate. As soon as they found me, they just started messaging me and saying, Thank you so much, you saved my life. Like I have my son in my life now because of you that day. So um, yeah, evidently the Adder Boys didn't um last too long because then all these all the boys were putting like nominations for Australian Order of Australia, my locker, and all these fucking crazy things. And I was like, You can't fuck, he's taking the piss out of me. But um mate, yeah, that was that was a positive thing after the after I stepped on my dick. But um yeah, you know, and I've heard about that story, yeah. Yeah, good story. I just I mean I took this opportunity to just put it out there because evidently um now that I'm on social media, you can't please everyone. There's always there's always someone that wants to talk. Don't be jealous, just be better. But uh mate, look, I um I'm here to tell you point blank, um I'm not special, mate. I just kept turning off for the boys. I worked really hard on my job, I was effective in the roles that I was given. Um, and I just worked my ass off, mate. And I was just happy to be a part of it for a short period of time. I loved it. Um I wish if I had my time again, I wouldn't, I wouldn't have got out. But if I didn't, if I had a stay, I probably wouldn't have the uh a couple of children that I've got now, which um I'm eternally grateful for. So everything has its way of um of working out. And obviously in 2010 we had that the end of the year really fucked me up. Yeah, I'm sure it did with a lot of the guys that you crashed.

SPEAKER_01 3:56:03

Yeah, the chopper crashes June, as I spoke about earlier.

SPEAKER_03 3:56:05

Yeah, and because I'm so close with a lot of the guys that were in that, and you know, I have I wouldn't say it's survivor's guilt, but Scottie Palmer was in that bird, and um I was the reason why he took my spot in Alpha Company was because I took his spot in Charlie Company. So whether or not, and I don't think I would have been on the chopper, maybe I was, maybe I wasn't, it's too too much to talk about, but um I have a little bit of uh yeah, I don't know, I don't know what you would call it. I I wouldn't go as far as to say I have survivor's guilt, but it's like yeah, it would have been somebody else, I guess. He would have swapped with somebody else, but it just so happens it was me, and I don't parade that around and say fucking poor me, or you know, I don't that's not I don't talk about that to anybody. Um but it for me it's one of those things that like the universe, yeah, I get it. The universe works in fucking crazy ways, you know. Um, but yeah, and again, yeah, so um in that crash, obviously you had Chucky, you had the Fly Fisherman, you had Ryder. Um, I didn't know Apps and I didn't know the other guys that are in there, um Robo and all those guys, but I was pretty close with all those guys from Alpha Company and that sort of thing. So it sort of really, really hurt me, man. Really hurt me deep down emotionally because they're they're really good mates of mine. And um, you know, I really feel for the guys that were there on the day. Fucking, I don't know how they get through it, man, because the love and brotherhood that we had in Alpha Company, and I'm sure it's the same in other companies. I didn't really feel like the same in Charlie because it was a bit of a hodgepodge of uh throw together company, but that alpha company group was fucking deep, and we had a long, like it's just a really, really good deep brotherhood mindset as well.

SPEAKER_01 3:57:40

Yeah, and just just on that, you know. Obviously, I know the Fly Fisherman well and obviously uh Scott Ryder really well. Just the the will and the power for those guys to get fighting fit again and get back on the fucking horse. You know, Scott Ryder only got out a couple of years ago, you know, uh two years ago. Screws loose, mate. Back on the horse and back on the fucking job, on the tools, yeah, back to Afghanistan. I think it's it's a the mindset. Yeah, and you know, I've had Ryder on the podcast. We spoke about the the extent of his injury, he should be dead.

SPEAKER_03 3:58:08

Yeah, that's right. Same as um, same as a flyfisherman. Exactly right, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:58:11

And yeah, obviously they're the boys that are on the chopper, you know. I don't I don't know those guys, but you know, I know these two, so I'm just speaking of those two.

SPEAKER_03 3:58:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:58:17

But the mindset is just fucking tremendous. Yeah, and I think I think that's exact spirit.

SPEAKER_03 3:58:23

Exactly, mate. And I think it's I think it's a credit to the to the writer of the world because I think that's as big a part of his being able to deal with it as if he didn't get back on the tools uh and be and you know med grade up uh upward med graded, I think it would have had a detrimental effect. I think that's part of the uh the the after effects. It's like a tick. Yeah, yeah, I'm good to go.

SPEAKER_01 3:58:45

Yeah, and that's the only share that you get, Scott.

SPEAKER_03 3:58:47

Yeah. We remember you from three man, you're not as cool as everyone thinks. Yeah, mate. So large, that's there's a few little tidbits in there, but that large and large and you know, that's pretty much the end of my two commando career. I didn't realise at the time, but I had the I had a major jaw surgery, um uh had wrist and shoulder surgery. Uh it sounds pretty pale considering the guys that fell out of the sky, got back on the tools, but I was sort of um I don't know whether I was mentally checked out or or what it was, but yeah, the the the the the guys from Alpha Company that died really had a had an effect on me. Um, and I started to sort of lose a bit of the a bit of the drive. I was tired, man. Um, and yeah, I don't really have much more to say about that other than just like I got depressed, things in my personal life weren't going great, um, and that sort of thing. So, you know, cry mirror river, play the violin.

SPEAKER_01 3:59:39

Um, but yeah, I so you had the thoughts of discharge at that stage? Yeah, that's that's where it started for me because obviously there was a lot of guys, not not just yourself, there were multiple.

SPEAKER_03 3:59:47

Yeah, and and and the other thing to I'll add to that at the time, I I got a missus by this point, and she would um later on to be go to university, and this sort of had a an you know a just a decision-making effect on me as well, because again, as I went back to in the beginning of the podcast, my I'm I'm very loyal, I reciprocate loyalty uh to my mates and and stuff like that. So when I sort of felt like it's her time to go and do something for herself, uh, and I'm I'm on my way out. So um I was having thoughts about getting out and hadn't really um hadn't really materialized yet. Um but then anyway, I went back to we're moving into the sort of the 2011-1213 space now. Um, where I got I was sorry, I was back in and I was doing a bit of work, but it wasn't anything major. I was playing like enemy party for a lot of the um tag dudes and just sort of being which hurts. I've done that. Yeah, sim munitions not fun.

SPEAKER_01 4:00:45

Especially when you've got fucking a bunch of qualified operators coming in fucking just hard murdering inventory guys.

SPEAKER_03 4:00:51

Well we do a lot of that stuff in Sydney City too, with buildings that are getting pulled down or being decommissioned or demolished for um rebuilds or whatever. We get to um we get to do like uh jobs on live on buildings. So there was a couple of those that I used to run around with the tag guys. So I wouldn't say I I definitely wasn't um a tag member, but I was like a I was like a tag bitch if you want. So I was like I was like the fucking I was like the moving target for the guys for a while there and um all because I had a couple of multiple, I had multiple surgeries, so I was pretty much combat ineffective anyway. I was I was downgraded medically, um, and then it just sort of I just never sort of found the love for it again. Um and then I ended up in uh SFTC with um JJ and um uh H. And um yeah, I was just sort of doing admin roles for the unit there, and we had to raise a um because JJ was getting that combat fighting systems off the ground, and we were I was doing like procurement and uh stuff like that for the octagon and like the all the fighting weapons and stuff like that for JJ to again go on and train the boys to be able to do CQB hand to hand combat, stuff like that. So I was a part of that. Um Yeah, uh the misses at the time ended up being successful, and then six months before the um end of that year I put the D in and away we went and and that was it. Med discharge and that was that.

SPEAKER_01 4:02:13

So med discharge for your injuries, ankle and back and whatever. Yeah, man.

SPEAKER_04 4:02:17

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 4:02:17

Of course, just the the life of uh an inventory slash SF operator. Like it it takes its toll. I think a lot of people, army guys in general, you know, like like you said, doing you know, back back when we were just young lids, we're doing fucking 40 clickers.

SPEAKER_03 4:02:32

25, 30 kilos a gig easily mag 58 in a few.

SPEAKER_01 4:02:35

58 on your arm, fucking heavy duty, man. Swaddling that thing like a baby.

SPEAKER_03 4:02:38

Mate, and I and I won't hide from it either. Medically discharged was musculoskeletal body, but also um psych at the time. Um mate, and I won't I won't even hide from it. The the that helicopter crash and just the just the ongoing loss of guys from the unit with the high tempo off high tempo on the brain as well.

SPEAKER_01 4:02:55

Yeah, and that's a psychologically.

SPEAKER_03 4:02:57

There was no off switch. No, and like even when I remember when I got the call for the crash, it was uh Griffo that called me, and I was in my lounge room at home, and I was just like, because at this stage I had my mouth wide shut, I had my I guess I had to have major sort of jaw surgery anyway. Um I had the call, and I remember just like hearing the names, and I fucking just broke down. The missus was there, it's the first time I ever think she saw me cry, but um, and I remember I couldn't cry because some of my jaws wide shut and fuck man, it was painful. I had neuroblockers and stuff, which also made me pretty ineffective at the unit because I wasn't I wasn't allowed to drive and all this shit. But anyway, long story short, uh med discharge, body and psych. Um, but evidently I chose the path of uh see one thing too with post-matic stress or PTSD, it's a broad brush in the military because they don't really identify what category it fits into because there's like there's all these different categories, man. It's like um uh separation, um anxiety, hypervigilance, you know, obviously trauma. And you know, when you were talking to Steeds the other day, um Nico, he articulates it really well because it's not one brush for everybody, it's all different. And again, it's that a lot of the problems guys have, and a lot of the guys that end up in these units have pretty rough childhoods, right? So, and you know, I won't use that as an excuse, but the data speaks for itself. And you know, a lot of my stuff was probably preloaded in me, um, but evidently it was exposed and it was brought to the service, and I think I'd actually hit my limit, man. I think my I think my limit for tolerance for that kind of shit hit its hit its apex. And then I just started spilling over the edges. Yeah, man, and I wasn't doing anything stupid, like I wasn't fucking drinking or anything like that. I wasn't fucking doing anything crazy shit that was making my situation worse. But I just I needed to break and just break away.

SPEAKER_02 4:04:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:04:48

And mate, obviously comes with that too, um, a little bit of stigma around the unit. Because I was one of the first guys to sort of not first, but I was one of that era of guys to get out on a med discharge and all the you know, a couple of haters would talk about it within the unit, I'm sure. But then the same guys that were med discharging six, 12 months later would ring me and go, Hey Birjo, how did you go about it?

SPEAKER_02 4:05:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:05:09

Because I had a really clean cut, like there's a process that you've got to go through to give you a quick exit, not a quick exit, but a like a more smoother exit. And um, I figured out that I figured out that algorithm and what I had to do to do that. So I became a little bit of an SME on helping guys get out for a period of time there. Um, and and that was good for me because I felt like I was also helping dudes that were in a fucking bad bad place.

SPEAKER_01 4:05:33

Um dudes in bad places at that stage. You know, uh just quickly I'll talk about it, you know, like what we're we're talking about a period uh throughout G Watt, you know, that Afghan period where you were just waiting for a phone call, waiting for the news fucking feed, who's the next dude that's either going to be killed or and or take their lives here in Australia. You know, it was times you know, I'd oh, you know, get a phone call. Uh you know, Greg Scherz dead. I'm like, fuck.

SPEAKER_03 4:06:00

Well mate, it's interesting, you know, like a good friend of mine.

SPEAKER_01 4:06:02

Boy McDonald's dead, fuck. Yeah, and you know, like Jared McKinney's dead, fuck.

SPEAKER_03 4:06:06

Yeah, another one's like Matt Kapler, he was on my Up Company trip, mate. Um, I don't know the circumstances, but he died here at home. Yeah, uh Edward Mason.

SPEAKER_01 4:06:13

Let's talk about him. Obviously, he died during training. Yeah, Phil's Lamdle just recently. Yep. Um you got former 3R, SASR, died in a parachute accident.

SPEAKER_03 4:06:22

Yeah, you've got bloody, you got Todd Chijge, mate. He went over, he was in uh CAF, I believe.

SPEAKER_01 4:06:26

He um Cav spoke about that one.

SPEAKER_03 4:06:28

Yeah, yeah, man. And Chich, he was on my he was on my selection as well. So let's let's run through the rap sheet. We had Matt Kapler, he was on my selection. We had um we had Jude Garland on mine, we had Chige, we had uh and and by virtue, the guys that we weren't with, we became close with anyway, the guys that were dying, you know, like it was just what I mean, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:06:46

It was a lot. And it's it's it's not a normal scenario for you know the regular person to, you know, like I don't I I don't want to compare things here, you know. You see your general civilian, you know, that's a carpenter, you know, you expect maybe one or two phone calls, you've lost a friend, but a lot of us were just constantly just waiting.

SPEAKER_03 4:07:06

Yeah, like fuck, who's next? Yeah, like who's next? Yeah, and that's right, mate.

SPEAKER_01 4:07:09

And that doesn't that and it was it, like I said, not just internationally, domestically here in Australia, either taking their lives or in in in training accidents or whatever.

SPEAKER_03 4:07:17

And the thing is too, man, like it doesn't go away even now. Like by It's not, it's still going. Yeah, but we know the network and exactly with this with this OSI and all this floody, all this shit that's going on. Like, you can't like who talked Nico talked about it the other day about in um Touria, there was like 30 dudes that killed themselves because the care level was just not available. Or I mean I'm not gonna go onto it because he he he spoke about it uh very eloquently.

SPEAKER_01 4:07:41

But Deputy Chief of the Army, you're listening, mate?

SPEAKER_03 4:07:43

Yeah, you know, like you're listening, mate. It's it's a it's a it's uh whatever happened to that Royal Commission into veteran suicides, fuck all. Fuck all. That's what happened. Backwards, isn't it? A lot of money there.

SPEAKER_01 4:07:55

And and obviously Phil Thompson's been fighting that case at the moment with that, you know, the the cap of five grand for Allied services, you know, like that's not gonna cut the quid for a a few blokes, I think. You know, especially, you know, if there's blokes getting physio and getting this and getting, you know, etc. And then obviously getting psychology treatment as well. Like it's not gonna cut the fucking mustard.

SPEAKER_03 4:08:15

And I'll tell you now, man, like um part of the uh part of part of the exit, you have to go and have psych psych appointments and stuff like that, but um they're not high quality, man. And I found out later in the in the time um when I actually got into be a civvy again. Uh I found a I found a psych and I I I I had a couple of appointments, um not necessarily about defence, but just like my life, yeah. Um and the calibre difference between the ones that you get in the army and of course I'm not shitting on the army ones, but and you know, the just the the qualifications and skills differentiate with like uh massively. Uh and you know, it's like guys like um guys like Andy White and Adam Slott now, they're they've got the Pillars of Pilgrims made in there sending guys over to Mexico and Ibergane and Horse for one, yeah, changed his life, mate. Well, funny, I you know, I don't I don't have all the time in the world to talk to you about it, but on my first elf company trip, I met Horse. I you know, he wouldn't probably remember me now, but I'm I used to do yoga with horse because he was a mad CrossFitter and he was also this free spirit that used to do yoga. And he used to say, anyone that wants to come and do yoga, him and fucking Risha there, and I'd go up and I'd had a, I think I did a few yoga sessions with him because I was just open to it, yeah. But I was also looking at this six foot fucking three, whatever he was fucking big dude, bald, fucking tats, yeah, just like looks like Delsim from fucking Street Fighter, bro, but white version, yeah. So he's like, I'm just looking at this guy because I had a bit of like hero envy if you want to call it that. But it was just like um fucking good cunt. He wants to give me the time and I'll take him up on the time, you know.

SPEAKER_01 4:09:41

You say commander operator had uh hero envy of SSR.

SPEAKER_03 4:09:44

Very select, very select, very, very select, very select. Uh they'll like that one, they'll they'll take that one. Yeah, they'll take that one. Yeah, that's okay. Take it. You can fucking punch it, that's how you can do it. But uh yeah, look, man, I uh like there's there's absolute fucking G's in two commanders, absolute G's in SASR. And what I like about the whole thing is um post-service, war's over, all the bullshit between the two units that was driven by the higher ups doesn't exist. And um a little side quest here. I've probably got more mates from Perth now after the wars than I did at the time, and that doesn't say anything about them or anything, but just the the social connectivity now and the like the ability to have the same mission set focus in the civilian world by way of helping the boys out, um, bringing light to current events that are a fucking witch hunt, and just trying to look after the boys as much as you can. Um, and you know, like um like Cam's Cause and 079 Foundation. Um, but yeah, like the boys over there in Perth with Pillars for Pilgrims, mate, they um they're doing great things for a lot of guys 100%. Not just guys from Perth either. Australian Broad, Australian Army Broad. I think they're working for uh they're doing stuff for Five Eyes and MT and which I love.

SPEAKER_01 4:10:54

You know, shout out to uh Pillars for Pilgrims. Definitely jump on Instagram, check out Pillars for Pilgrims, follow uh Andy and Slot.

SPEAKER_03 4:11:02

Yeah, Slotty and um and Whitey, mate, good guys. I think Andy's got a book coming out soon. He does get on the book.

SPEAKER_01 4:11:07

He does, yeah, get on the book.

SPEAKER_03 4:11:08

But yeah, mate, I'm not gonna write the dicks anymore, but basically I just want to say that um yeah, there's there's a lot of good guys out there that are doing a lot of good things after service. Um and you know, part of part of my transition, um, you know, I'll probably skate over it, but I've got four amazing children. I um divorced from my wife uh um back in 2019. And why I had a bit of a moment where the wheels come off um because that's when Afghan closed down, I believe. Correct me if I'm wrong on the years, 2018 actually, wasn't it? When when it came across the media where it was like fucking dudes hanging off planes and falling to their death.

SPEAKER_01 4:11:45

Was it? I'm pretty sure the the it was it was 21, yeah. It was 21.

SPEAKER_03 4:11:49

Yeah, okay. Well, like I said, I was I was in a bit of a space there, but um, yeah, when that happened, uh I sort of was like had this real negative mindset about like my fucking mates and the brothers from Perth went over there and guys got killed, you know. We lost some really good Australians there. And for what? You know, in seven days the Taliban took back over and it was just like for fucking what, you know. And um, I mean it that's that's no one's blame, I guess. I don't know whether it is or it isn't, but I sort of got my fucking shit rocked there for a bit. Um, separated from my wife. Um, and you know, that that was sort of a catalyst for me to really reassess a lot of things in my life. Uh and I was at a point in my uh marriage where I could have stayed and I would have ended up, I was in a bit of an emotional desert to be fair.

SPEAKER_01 4:12:37

And I don't want to run her down or anything, but class case of emotion, as uh Burgundy would say.

SPEAKER_03 4:12:42

Dean Burgundy. Um but uh mate, yeah. So we were together very young, we grew apart over the years, we were sort of living different lives. There was a bit of a um a catastrophic kind of relationship with her and my family, and I'll come back to the loyalty piece. Um, I was too focused on her and couldn't see anything outside the blinkers, and there was a lot of shit going on on social media and stuff because I wasn't on social media at the time, and there was a lot of stuff going on social media and like a lot of infighting, a lot of this stuff, but I was totally unaware. And until my auntie actually came and said, Are you aware of what's going on here? And I said no, and then I was made privy to the information, created this environment where I had to leave where I was living, and we moved away back down to the coast where her family evidently lives. And I'm not gonna go on too much about it because it doesn't take up too much bandwidth of me, but um basically the relationship was no more tenable, and we'd grown apart. Um, I started seeing another chick probably sooner than favorable in the eyes of the community, but it is what it is, and I now have two amazing children with her, you know, comfortable divorce to a degree, and uh now I've now I've moved on with my life. And I think for me the curtain had to come down on that section of my life, and unfortunately, she was part of it. And for me to be able to move on and become a better person for my kids, it was a better choice to me to get out of a relationship where I probably would have ended up being toxic, becoming maybe a little bit like my old man, not in the depart of like domestic violence or anything like that, but just that just that fuck with that the kids don't end up liking, you know. And um I chose to go and now I can be happy and be there for my kids. Uh and you know, we've got a pretty good working relationship now. And um yeah, man, I chose the post-traumatic growth option and um and and then it's a key word we want there. Growth, yeah. Because you can be a victim or you can you can try and rebuild yourself. Um and this is where ultralunning comes into it because while I was going through that um very hard for me, and I will say leaving a marriage with two young children would be the most uh emotional and physical hardship I've ever gone through without question. Uh so I I said to myself, I obviously I don't drink anyway, and I wasn't doing any kind of crazy shit, but I was like, I need to fill that gap for that desire to fucking do wild shit. So I said, What am I the what am I the worst at? And it was running. And I've mentioned in the pod about 2.4 is used to kick my ass, 3.2s used to kick my ass, all that kind of shit used to kick my ass. I was like, all right, I'm a fucking shit show at running, I'm gonna start running. And I started running, I started running, started running, and then I became like because I shoot uh compound bow and I go back home and go hunting. I haven't done so much recently, but um Cam Haynes is obviously big on that, and you've got the David Goggins of the world, the Courtney DeWalters, and all these all these people in um Sam Cloudlander, uh Harvey Cloudlander from New Zealand, he's a G. But I started to sort of re-cause I've addictive personality, as you know. So I got into this ultra scene and just never really looked back. But what comes with that was that all these lessons I've learned from the military, it was um endurance, it was that mindset, it's accountability. Like you can't be a bag of shit if you're trying to run 50K on Sunday, or you know, you want to run a hundred K race, or if you want to end up running 165K 100 miles, which I've done now. Um, and Ultra has become a real mainstay of my sort of person now, um, except for the last two years. I've had major ankle surgery, and I'll tie it back to that time when I got uh repatriated early off my Charlie trip because I ended up having a broken ankle that fixed itself, but I had a piece of floating bone in that ankle, which is why my ankle wasn't getting better, and all the scans and all the shit that was happening in my my med discharge, it could they couldn't identify it. I'm like, well, fucking how is this going on? But later down the track, found out what was wrong. It's been it's been remedied now. Um this year I had a uh fractured skull and a brain bleed um over training again, fell over and um and cracked my head. Uh it was probably that my sister-in-law that was I was training with, she actually ran over and drove the slipper into me, so I'm blaming her. So I reckon she gave me the TBI, not the actual, not the actual head hit, but uh I joke. But uh yeah, mate, so ultras big on me for now. And what it's realigned for me is is my discipline set. Like if you want to run 100 miles, you need to put the work in, you've got to eat right, you gotta sleep right, you gotta do recovery well, you have to have a bit of a a bit of a good working environment. And by and large, my new partner, uh now Soph, I love her to bits, mate. Um, she's been a really, a really good thing for me because she's just sort of accepted me for who I am and hasn't tried to put guardrails up. Um, don't worry, she pulls me into line anytime I need it. But at the same time, she's a country girl. Her family are um one of the oldest families for settlement for agriculture in Australia, I think the sixth or seventh generation now. Um and they're out the uh Western districts, and yeah, mate, good farming family. She's got three brothers and a sister, and it's just been a more, you know, like I'm a country boy, she's a country girl, and it just works. You know, it's not hard. It's not hard to be with her. Yeah, I'm probably hard to live with sometimes because I'm so so um the way I am, but I work on myself every day, man, and I um I just try and be a better person for my kids because ultimately they are what matter and they are who I represent now. I just want to be a good role model. And what I lacked growing up was, apart from my grandfather, was good male, strong good strong male role models within the community, and that's one of my presets now uh moving into the social media space um was obviously you know bringing light to agricultural families, uh bringing light to domestic violence and um women protection and children protection. Obviously, we're on the you know the whole Epstein thing, and you can't hide that shit now. Um, and obviously with the boys that are in trouble, um, both from Two Commando and SASR, I want to bring light to that in my capacity that I have, which is just trying to tell some layman's truths to the people in the public space so they don't just believe the mainstream media and they don't get fucking brainwashed by the mainstream media. Exactly. And just to try and give a a perspective from a person that was over there, um, like Scojo.

SPEAKER_01 4:19:20

Point of the podcast.

SPEAKER_03 4:19:20

That's right, you know, and and just just make people aware that it's not as black and white, there's lots of grey in there, there's lots of fog of war in there, and it should be taken, it shouldn't be taken at face value. Boys everyone deserves a fair shake. Um that's it, we forgave the jabs. We forgave the jabs, yeah. Mate, they're killing it nowadays, guys.

SPEAKER_01 4:19:41

I love that country, yeah, bro.

SPEAKER_03 4:19:43

But I uh yeah, I won't rattle on too long, but mate, that's that's the reason why I've got into that space. Um, and I just feel like it's it's also a way I might add that I'm I'm not monetized because what I'm talking about is it means something to me, and I just have information in my brain and I have virtues that I want to live to, and I want my sons to be proud. I want my sons to see their dad for who they know me to be, not who I was or what I was. Um, and you know, it I I think now is a more critical time than ever to have a voice. Yeah, 100%. You know, um, but yeah, man, that's that's by and large why I'm in that space now. I don't know how long I'll be there, but I'll um I'll keep taking the opportunities when they present themselves. If people give me a platform to talk to it, I will, and I will continue to do so, mate. I love my kids, yeah. I love my life, yeah. And you know, um a bit of hazing online there, and I don't look too far into it, but like um, yeah, it just comes with the territory, I think. It does. You know, you trust me. You stand, you stand up and you have a voice, and there's people who try and cut you down, but evidently that's a them problem, not a me problem.

SPEAKER_01 4:20:56

Yeah, no, mate, that's exactly right. You've got your own story, your own story to tell, and people either love it or they don't.

SPEAKER_03 4:21:02

Yeah. It mate, anybody out there that wants to ever communicate with me, I'll try and get back to you as much as I can. I'm uh father of four, as I've banged on about many, many times. They are priority number one, uh, and I'll try and affect change any way I can by way of uh advice. Don't it's not legal advice, but um yeah, look. I've had a pretty colourful life. There's a there's a fair bit that we didn't get into today. Um probably more of the nefarious stuff, more of the more of the um more of the sort of the the wrong side of the track stuff, but um evidently it's created the person that I am today. It's made me pretty street smart, pretty world smart. Um, and I just want to close with all that shit I was giving me, old man in the beginning. Um, for everything bad that he was, I ended up becoming out the other side a pretty well-rounded dude. Uh, everyone's got their own problems, but inadvertently his way of fathering me turned me into what I think and feel is a pretty decent bloke that looks after his kids. I am who I am in spite of him. Um when he was on his deathbed and stuff like that, because he ended up passing away from um cancer pretty early, 61. Um, you know, we made we made amends and he told me he was proud of me at the end of the day. Um it came a long time after the fact, but I'm happy that we had that interaction for all his or for all the things he was no good at, he was still my dad, you know.

SPEAKER_01 4:22:26

Mate, so I I guess that kind of leads us on to that final part of the podcast. A couple of final questions, mate, and uh, you know, I'll crack off with that first one, you know. I guess that ties on from what you've just basically said, but what advice can you give to someone that's out there listening right now just to keep on keeping on completely any goal they set their mind to and to crush into life? And you know, if there's anyone out there trying to smuggle in an AK-47, what advice could you give them?

SPEAKER_03 4:22:49

Don't do it, or have a simple have a have a good RSM, mate. What advice I would give, and I've I've uh I would say you need to learn how to endure. You know, the sun's gonna come up tomorrow. Um, it doesn't matter how cold you are, hot you are, or whatever you are, the sun will rise. Every day is a new day. Um if there was ever a fuck up in life and you think you're the worst one, there's always someone out there doing it harder than you. So always just zoom out a little bit. As hard as things can be, it can always be worse. So just try and endure. You know, turn your hand at something with value, uh, get a hobby that means something to you. Just don't ever quit because if there was ever opportunity, I would have taken it. But I just chose to never quit. And I'm thankful that I didn't because endurance is a big part of my life, and I didn't realize it at the time. But endurance is everything. You know, you've got to plan for the future, you've got to work hard to achieve things. Nothing happens overnight that's worth happening. Anything worth it takes time. So start doing endurance sports.

SPEAKER_01 4:24:00

100%. I'm not into fucking endurance sports. It helps your uh it helps your mind. It helps. Yeah, the word endurance, you know, it's it works for life as well. Like live life as long as you possibly can because it's the only one you get.

SPEAKER_03 4:24:14

Yeah, drinking piss and taking drugs isn't cool anymore, boys. What's cool is staying fit, looking after yourself, being healthy, trying to prolong your life because we all bang on about how great Australia is. Why would you try and fucking shorten it?

SPEAKER_01 4:24:26

Exactly right.

SPEAKER_03 4:24:27

You know, don't take the easy road, don't be counted in the crowds, stand on your own two feet and get better. Whether I'm an example to be looked at or not as positive or negative, but I never sort of went with a crowd. Um, I've always been the heat seeker, um, good and bad. But you know, I'm I I go to bed at night with no regrets. I sleep as I sleep every night quite soundly and it just just don't quit. Yeah. Endure and don't quit. Get better.

SPEAKER_01 4:24:54

I do like a bit of whisky and a bit of cigars here and there. But uh yeah, mate, I I'm a I'm a big gym gym goer as well, you know, with all the injuries I've got, and I'm you know, maintain my my physical fitness when I can. Obviously, jump with a treaddy, but if you're out there, head to zero limits podcastmerch.com and you can grab yourself some pre-workout and uh creatine. A few more things coming soon, so stay tuned.

SPEAKER_03 4:25:17

Mate, I should I actually actually want to say um you you you gifted me some of your pre-workout, mate. Roadside bomb. And the reason why I haven't taken it yet is because I'm waiting on these results from that brain bleed that I copped in March.

SPEAKER_01 4:25:28

It'll fix it, don't worry about it.

SPEAKER_03 4:25:30

Mate, that's what I'm worried about. I'm I'm I'm worried about it's like the um the early 2000s no explode that we used to get in Iraq where it was basically methamphetamine.

SPEAKER_01 4:25:37

Every word I've got about this pre-workout so far has been positive.

SPEAKER_03 4:25:40

Well, mate, I can't wait to get two scoops.

SPEAKER_01 4:25:42

If you want to be hit by a roadside bomb, take two scoops. Well, I don't, I just someone's actually someone who'd reach and go, it's so disrespectful of you to call it a roadside bomb because it's just it's disgusting like loser. Shut your mouth. Go and go and get a hobby. Go and hit by one. Get a hobby, get a hobby, get a hobby, man. But uh mate, second question. Tell us actually, sorry, uh second question, what scares you most in life?

SPEAKER_03 4:26:05

It's the old throwaway, mate, and we said it in the car today. It probably it's probably evolved over the years, but now as I sit here today, what scares me is my children's health, uh, and if they ever lost it, they're all extremely healthy, uh, they're extremely happy kids. Um for me, it would be to lose a child.

SPEAKER_01 4:26:24

Yeah, mate, fuck. Well, yeah. Stay tuned for a podcast coming soon because fuck, mate. There's a guy that's lived in, and I think I spoke about it on a debrief or something else, but uh on Robbo's fucking body arts, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:26:36

Maddie, Maddie, mate, I'm I'm not scared of much, and anybody that knows me will be able to tell you that too. But I um through having children, it's it's sort of when I touched on that post-traumatic growth shit, they've actually helped me get in touch with my emotions and how to better navigate that. Not so much at an adult level from adult to adult, but definitely from adult to child. I now understand myself better and I find myself tailoring my responses to my children individually, but also through their, you know, if one makes a mistake, it's handled differently than the next one. And it's just it's given me a really good, more better understanding of how to be emotionally connected to my my children. Yeah, yeah, mate.

SPEAKER_01 4:27:20

It's um I'm I'm I'm scared of them getting I like I fucking you know, I when you're at home watching your kids sleep, yeah, like they're just getting bigger and they they're you know, obviously talking back now and calling a bro and cousin, all this stuff now, but it almost makes you also I was thinking about it, like this is totally off cuff here. Like I'm also looking forward to be getting coming old and watching them have their own kids and and then I can you know have the have the grandkids, etc. I'm I'm actually really looking forward to it. Which well, I'm not also because I don't want to get fucking old and senile and crusty like I already am, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:27:58

But mate, that touches on your question one. Like, don't give up because like you've got so much to look forward to.

SPEAKER_01 4:28:04

Exactly right, mate.

SPEAKER_03 4:28:04

You know, don't quit, man.

SPEAKER_01 4:28:06

Yeah, endure. Yeah. Uh third question, mate. Tell us something about you that people don't know. What's your guilty obsession? Food. I'm a chocolate. Chocolate your chocolate. Yeah. What type of chocolate are we talking? This this will decide our friendship.

SPEAKER_03 4:28:20

Well, I don't care what you think. So right, eh? So um yeah, mate. It used to be Cabry before they changed the before they changed the recipe, but now I tend to go for it's called Whitaker's, it's a uh New Zealand chocolate. Um that is my go-to. I'm quite partial to a original Tim Tim slab as well. I try and hide them. So I'm the only one who goes there. I think it's about 10 in a packet.

SPEAKER_02 4:28:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:28:45

But see, the way I balance this out is because I'm an ultra runner now, I can eat whatever I like and just burn that shit down. Burn it down. Yeah. So there's always a trade-off. But yeah, mate, chocolate would definitely be it.

SPEAKER_01 4:28:57

Um just on there. Like if you're wearing a fucking garment or whatever that's telling you what you are, uh, it tells you obviously what calories you burned. What are we talking like at 100 kilometres?

SPEAKER_03 4:29:09

Mate, there's a lot of science. There's a lot of science that actually goes into ultra running preparation and uh races. Uh, and so just quick facts for me, my sodium intake is about a thousand mega an hour. I need about a litre of water an hour, I need 400 carbs, I need 200 cows, I need um 50 magnesium. Um, and these are all set the clock. So I'm a high sweat, I've got a high pH sweat, so I sweat more than most. Um, so my fluid intake is greater. Where some guys out there they can get away with like 500 mils per hour, or it depends what speed you run at, what altitude you run at, what the temperature is. So it's it's a lot. Like it's like I guess it'd be like a sniper course, not that I've ever done one, but there's so many factors that go into it to get that bullet down range. Same with ultra running. It's like there's that many factors that you have to consider to be successful. And I'm uh proud to say that I've never had a did not finish or a DNF uh so far. I've run, you know, I've run countless 50 kilometre races. I can't, I don't even know. My training program is typically a 50k once a fortnight, um, just to keep it real. In the lead up to sort of like 100k races, um, you do a good solid six-week block. Um, my first Ultra event was um or it's a 100k race. What did it take me? 18 hours, I think it was. Um, running around at like 90 plus kilos, too. It's pretty hard going.

SPEAKER_05 4:30:33

Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_03 4:30:34

Uh you learn a lot about yourself out there. And I run, I I raw dog it too. I don't take headphones or anything, so it's just me and you and nature. Yeah, yeah. Just me and just me and my head, man. A little head noise. But then um schizophrenia. Something like that. Something. I'm on something. I've got something going on. Uh TBI, TBI. But I um, yeah, so then followed up. I've done a I've done a fair few hundreds now. I did the um 100 miler a couple of years back, and my next race, hopefully, if everything goes well with my body, um, will be this November. I'll be running 100 miles again in Kosyosko National Park. Uh, the first 100 miler took me 24 hours and some and some GST. Yeah, right. But um, that's yeah, there's no stopping, it's just on.

SPEAKER_01 4:31:20

Do you contribute a lot of your or you know, endurance and success within your military career because you started off as a Rayok Ranger? Definitely.

SPEAKER_03 4:31:27

It was all those blankets I had to fold that I never actually got to fold. A ranger. I'm so happy you closed with Ray. I'm so happy you finished this podcast with it. You might see the old me in about 15 minutes.

SPEAKER_01 4:31:40

Mate, um two more questions. Um, favorite movie TV show. The uh Band of Brothers. Yeah. Um that was gangster back in Third Battalion. We all watched it.

SPEAKER_03 4:31:50

You mean was Band of Brothers. Fucking still is, mate. You've got Yellowstone now. You've got Land Man. Now we're talking, mate. You know what else was cool? You and Dutton Ranch. Have you watched Dutton Ranch? I always feel like sequels are shit.

SPEAKER_01 4:32:02

Nah, dude. Dutton Ranch. Three episodes already. You tried to download one yesterday, not out yet. Yeah, okay. Well, I'll um definitely gotta watch it.

SPEAKER_03 4:32:09

Yeah, Land Man, Band of Brothers, uh, Yellowstone. Yellowstone was sick. There's another one I'm missing. Oh no. Yeah, that kind of jam.

SPEAKER_01 4:32:18

Movie? What's your favorite uh military movie? What's your go-to? You know, I mean, we you know, we put put on Foxtel or channel not channel nine or ABC. Fuck those guys. Do you put on channel 10 and there's a movie on? And you know, you just watch it, you've watched it a million times, but you'll still watch it.

SPEAKER_03 4:32:36

Okay, so it depends on how long I have. Um, I would have to say there's a few, and I'll give you all of them and the reasons why. Braveheart, go to oh classic. Um, saving private ryan, because of the the history behind it, but also having veterans come out and say that that is the most realistic, yeah. What we've seen, even though Tom Hanks is a weirdo now that we know. Um, I would say Epstein Island. Yeah, bro, weird, all those glove pictures too, what a queer. But um, you've got um, I would say American Sniper with um with my with my history in Iraq. Um and one critical scene in that movie is when um Bradley Cooper's sitting in his lounge chair at home and he's staring in the TV and you can hear the gunfire and you can hear all that kind of thing, and then the camera swings around, he's actually staring at a blank screen. That's a very, very accurate rendition of what I would assume it's like, you know, or how people would feel now. Um piggybacking off that, I would say Lone Survivor because of the Afghan. Yeah. Um and the reason why I mentioned this is because it's like the what it's what they said about Private Ryan, it's a little bit same with American Sniper, same with um, same with um Lone Survivor. Um mate, so yeah, to be fair, I don't typically get into the military movies. Um back in the day it was Platoon and all those kinds of things. Um but yeah, mate, I sort of uh Navy SEALs, yeah. No, I don't um I don't watch TV very much. What I'm quite partial to is like um like those trivia shows, you know, those like oh yeah, fucking the question I'm always in front of the millionaire. Yeah, I'm always I always win. Not too keen on the new host that tipping point's my jam.

SPEAKER_01 4:34:11

Tipping point's pretty good.

SPEAKER_03 4:34:12

So I get on that, but I'm all I'm typically always right, like I am with everything else in my life. But I um except for the AK. Wow, that was one, that's only one that I didn't win. But then I've got the um I've got I've got like I should be like I should go on that show, I should go on that show, but that'd be the time that I'd go on the show and I'd fuck it up. Yeah, like it's deer in the headlights.

SPEAKER_01 4:34:30

Yeah, I play it on the plane all the time, especially on Quantas, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:34:33

But stuff like that, man. If I am watching, it might be like Gardening Australia. Unfortunately, it's on ABC, but I'm I'm quite prolific with um with YouTube, man. I um I just like to learn shit fast because I don't have a lot of time, but I also make myself very busy.

SPEAKER_01 4:34:46

Um but yeah. Yeah, right. Uh music, mate. What's uh well, you don't listen to nothing when you're running fucking across the planet, but in the gym, what do you listen to?

SPEAKER_03 4:34:55

Mate, big on podcast, big on uh Zach Bryan, big on um the country. I'm I'm country boy, mate. I like to listen to country. I uh I'm quite partial to say like system of it down. I like um uh you know a bit of punk from time to time. Um just whatever. Yeah, pretty much broad, pretty broad spectrum. Depends what sort of workout I'm doing. Um I know in the box across fit it's usually fucking hype, hype music, uh, and a bit of metal. Uh but yeah, man, I I typically what I tune into is education, books, or um country music. Yeah, or was your element's podcast? Yeah, well, when I said podcast, yeah, of course. Oh mate, yeah, no, I I definitely tune in to you, mate. Um, you're the pod father, bro. And like I said to you today at breakfast, um, whether you want to be admitted or not, and if the fucking government is listening, you bought you better play downstream with this guy because um he's gonna hand you a catalogue one day of all these stories that are gonna go into the Australian War Memorial. And one of the reasons why I actually said yes to coming up and talking to you, Maddie, was because it only takes three generations for your family to be to forget you. And I don't really know how it'll be perceived in the future, but downstream great, great, great, great, great grandkids. Hopefully it doesn't translate to them joining whatever military it looks like in the future. But I just want them to know that I wasn't one to sit idly by and just take it on the chin. Um I want them to remember me as a good Aussie who tried his best, who tried to leave his mark for them. Maybe or maybe not a good path to follow, but just try and extract the good of what I've left behind. And hopefully that is adopted throughout the Australian culture and community in everyone else's story. But what you're doing for the veteran community, the police community, Ambos, SES, name your service here that I've forgotten. You're gonna hand that to the AMW one day, and you're gonna have this backlog of stories that it's just gonna echo through time for us. That's the whole point of it. And I thank you for that, mate. Because um you started this in 2021, did you say? We're at 26 now, mate, and like I said, you're the pod father. Everyone that's come after you owes you a high five. No, I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 4:37:18

Or risky. There's there's some you know that it's it's wild because there's been so many, so many stories that have just been now locked into history, you know. Robo coming on, speaking about Worsley and Campbell, and the funny stories of Brett Wood doing donuts and his SS, and and it tracks back to Merv McDonald and anyone that's pretty much been killed in combat, especially for Afghanistan. We've linked stories to it and had different views, and guys have been connected with them. And again, now it's been captured in history because, like you said, the war memorial right now, we're talking about stories from World War I, World War II. A lot of it is is spec not speculation, but there's broken stories because it's a transcript of some dudes, you know, VC now here. Got dudes on like Hamish McLaughlin that spoke about uh Willie Upyatta's VC. He was he watched Willie up a upiata run past him. He watched Ben Robert Smith run towards you know the the mosque, you know.

SPEAKER_03 4:38:14

Like isn't Hamish a good bloke? Oh mate, gangster. Yeah, good bloke.

SPEAKER_01 4:38:17

Again, and like we spoke about it, he's a gangster of gangsters. Yeah, he's a topic. Chinese come invading tomorrow. The first person I'm calling, yeah. Hamish. He's a Hamish. We need you. Mate, he's an Apex hunter of the highest, just and just a humble human being, just a fucking good dad, good family man.

SPEAKER_03 4:38:35

Mate, and one thing I'll touch on here is what's the what I'll ask you a question. What's the common denominator of everybody's that you've interviewed? As in like their trait? What's one what and one sticks out to me, the overall traitors that and also they are selfless. Oh, 100%, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 4:38:53

You know, and that's proven joining the defense force.

SPEAKER_03 4:38:56

Yeah, and and and that's the kind of that's the kind of calibre of people that I don't think with all this media trial and the and the fucking OSI shit that's going on, mate. It's been too commercialised, it's been too Hollywooded. It's like the people that are doing these jobs are fucking selfless human beings, and they've given everything to some point. Like I spent my 20s in the army, bro. I don't remember my 20s, and guys that have served a lot longer than me, they've done a few more seasons than I have, and they're far more decorated, and they've done far more trips, and they've done all of that shit. There's a level of respect there that can't be quantified for me. Um, and I'll fucking yell from the rooftops as long as it takes to bring that awareness because, like I've said, I wasn't the best operator in the unit, definitely wasn't. I was happy to be there, and the guys around me lifted me up, and they're all selfless human beings, and you have a catalogue of those blokes.

SPEAKER_01 4:39:55

Selfless, mate. They're self not only to Australia but to the countries that they've operated in. You know, they do you know, we speak about uh a lot earlier. We you know, we don't care where we're gonna deploy to, we just want to do the job. And when I say do the job, also not only take out the enemy, but also preserve the life and uh cultures that exist in those areas. That's the whole point of it.

SPEAKER_03 4:40:16

Like it's and that's what I feel slipping away now. And I don't want to get too far off the zero limits theme, but the traditions and culture that make Australia what it is, both Indigenous and um and Australian eyes, whatever you want to call it, um, I don't want to see that disappear. No, you know, the stories of our heroes should be held up and and recounted, not fucking demonized and punished. That's it. You know?

SPEAKER_01 4:40:39

That's it, mate. Yeah, there's and there's tons of them. There's tons more to come. Yep. Stay tuned, there's plenty more bodies inbound, and hopefully there's some dudes out there, some SF guys that are listening. More than welcome because you know, there's there's plenty of stories to be told, and I'm sure you got a a funny story about Cam Baird or Murp McDonald or Nate Gallagher or I've got a long list of blokes that need to come on this podcast at some point.

SPEAKER_03 4:41:00

I'm not saying do it tomorrow or trigger a lot of them, but trigger, trigger maca. Um, yeah, man. Just um yeah, that's it, man. Yeah, no, I appreciate it. I appreciate the opportunity, Maddie. Uh, really just a three hard three RR Brotherhood is strong. We got there. Probably waffle on a lot, but uh thanks. If you if you got to this far in the potty, mate, appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 4:41:23

And uh, now the the people get to know and understand who Dean Burgess is and that content that you put out, there's a there's a backstory now. There's there's there's substance behind what you're saying.

SPEAKER_03 4:41:34

One thing I've learned through all my uh faux pas, if you want to call them throughout my life, is that you're okay it doesn't matter what you've done, you've always got another chance to make it right. So here I am.

SPEAKER_01 4:41:44

Yeah, no, I appreciate it. And uh for whatever reason people want to reach out to you, watch your Instagram.

SPEAKER_03 4:41:48

It's deanburgess.au, and that basically connects you with all the rest of the platforms there.

SPEAKER_01 4:41:53

Get on, have a listen, watch his content.

SPEAKER_03 4:41:56

And don't be don't be afraid to tell me if you agree or not. Um I won't give you any airtime if you try and be a fuckwit, but if you have uh critical takeaways that I probably or counter argument for your belief for sure, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 4:42:10

Everyone's got their right to their own opinion. Yeah, that's right. Regardless if it's right or wrong.

SPEAKER_03 4:42:13

And I'll take critiques because I'm not better than you and I'm always willing to learn.

SPEAKER_01 4:42:17

Yeah, exactly. No, I appreciate it, bro. And uh stay in contact. Let's uh yeah, RV scene. Uh like I spoke about earlier. Well, there's a bit of an event happening with past outdoors, Dave Parker. We'll try and get you down there and let's uh mate.

SPEAKER_03 4:42:32

I'd be massively appreciated. I haven't seen Dave for a long time, that'd be great.

SPEAKER_01 4:42:35

Yeah, all right, cool.

SPEAKER_03 4:42:37

Cheers, thanks, Maddie.