Ep. 252 Phil Thompson OAM MP Australian Army 1RAR - Federal Member For Herbert (PART 1)

SPEAKER_00 0:12

It's time for the Zero Limits Podcast, hosted by Australian veterans. Chatting with high-charging humans with hectic stories from around the world, we'll give you the motivation to take on whatever life throws at you in the kick to complete any goal you set your mind to. Let's go.

SPEAKER_05 0:41

Zero Limits listeners on today's Zone Podcast, mobile studio here, Parliament House in Canberra. Who would have thought? Uh I have a special guest in the background, Scojo. If you've probably been watching social media, have seen us down here, Australian War Memorial for the Cam Bed our Foundation. And Phil Thompson reached out to us, MP. O A M, I should say, also. That's the Civi VC. He reached out to us and said, Boys, come have a check-out of what I do here in Parliament House and uh we'll take you for a tour around. Obviously, uh, Phil former one R A R absolutely stellar career within the defence force and obviously moves into the political side of things, which we'll definitely talk about because I think it's such a you know the stereotypical dumb digger to a politician, which is absolutely dumb politician. Which is absolutely mental. Uh obviously the member for Herbert and uh spends a lot of time down here in Canberra leading the charge for the people. Mate, welcome. Thank you for having me. Yeah, mate, appreciate you having us in your house. Of course, this is your house. Well, yeah, this is also your second house pretty much, isn't it? You spend a lot of time here.

SPEAKER_04 1:52

I do, yeah. Two and two nearly.

SPEAKER_05 1:54

Is it?

SPEAKER_04 1:54

Yeah, it's wild, man. So you're you you represent the people in the north, but then you come here uh for all the you know the the voting on legislation, debates, and then your extra portfolios that you may have, whether you're in government or in opposition, and yeah, it's it's a lot. There's lots of travel.

SPEAKER_05 2:10

Yeah, and sorry, for the listeners right now, there's a bit of a a buzzing thing going off. He's got this uh Batman thing clock on the wall, and it it flashes red and green. I'm just looking at it now and explain this.

SPEAKER_04 2:23

So the clock has two squares um near the eight and four, and they flash uh if the house is sitting. So on the one side the red means the Senate, and then on the on the right hand side near the four, it means the House of Representatives. So if that flashes, you have about four minutes to run to the chamber to vote. Um, but this morning this is just letting us know that the parliament's uh about to start. So uh respective people will go to the chamber, they'll do prayers and open open for business.

SPEAKER_05 2:49

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_04 2:50

So it like you said before, if it goes green, like solid green, then you have to if it goes like like it is now, but just the green, I've got to run and then I'll go vote on some legislation. And then you'll be back. And I'll be back.

SPEAKER_05 3:01

Well, lucky you got some roadside bomb there. I love it. Zero limit supplements, roadside bomb. He's had a crack, and that'll get him down to the chamber a lot faster, I bet you. Have another skip, tell you what, you'll jump out the window.

SPEAKER_04 3:11

Yeah, I'd be worried if I was a Labour politician, right now.

SPEAKER_05 3:16

Mates, uh obviously, like I spoke about, you had a stellar career within Defence Force, moving to politics, which we'll talk about uh down the track. But before we do, let's get back into the younger days, 1988, 7th of May. Young Phil was here in the world.

SPEAKER_04 3:30

Just a baby, right? Yeah. Born and I was born in Armadale, uh, and then uh moved to the Sunshine Coast. My mum raised uh me and my brother and sister as a single mother. You know, she's she's like Batman, right? Like she's kick ass. And uh yeah, I was a troublemaker, in and out of you know, the court system, in and out of getting arrested on the sunny coast, and then realized that there has to be something more to life. So I was like, you know what? Why don't I have a look at the the army? Road my pushbike down to recruiting, walked in the door, and they said, All you need, mate, is a pass in year nine maths and English. I did not have that. Yeah, right, that bad. Yeah, I left school early, didn't you know it was concrete and you know, doing all the you know, labouring stuff, working as a brickie, driving excavators, and then uh yeah, I didn't have that. So it was just it was like this fork in the road moment, go back to uh, you know, concrete and go back to the tough life because that's a tough job, and it wasn't really suited for for me and uh someone at my age, and or go to night school, and I chose night school, and next thing you know, I've got recruiters going. We can't get you into the infantry for six months, but we've we've got this thing called ECN 500, which is uh enlist and you don't have a job, and then you you get the job when you're when you're down there, and uh yeah, got in. My mum gave me a big hug and said, I'll see you soon. She didn't think I was gonna last, and no one else did. You know, troublemaker didn't have any father figure, you know, kind of a rap bag. Get on a plane for the I think first time, travel down south, and yeah, loved it, dude.

SPEAKER_05 5:09

Before we crack on with this military career, let's get back to it. You had you said you had no father figure, and I guess, you know, with your schooling, that probably paid a paid a part in the reason why you just did not care.

SPEAKER_04 5:20

Yeah, didn't care, didn't gel. Um, you know, dad's not there, dad's in jail, and got my mum who's trying to raise me, and brother and sister, and you know, I'm already in trouble, I'm already been a rat bag, and I've got authority figures as teachers telling me to learn this way and do it that way, and and I didn't pick it up quick, so then I rebelled and I was like, you know what, stuff, I don't want to do school no more. Family uh sorry, brothers and sisters, any? Yeah, yeah, brother and sister, yeah. Um, and they're doing awesome. Like uh my my sister's a nurse, my my brother's in uh property development, and you know, they they're very highly successful, but but they shouldn't be. And you know, it's credit to to mum who you know taught us how to taught my brother and I how to shave with the eraser with the lid on it, and just you know, all the stuff that your dad's supposed to do that your mum has to do.

SPEAKER_05 6:04

So yeah, and you know, growing up, like you said, you had troubles at school, your brother and sister were they in the same boat as you? Because it I think what I'm trying to reference here, you know, a lot of guys that join the military generally are the the I guess the the right of the family, if you know what I mean. They're different, they're the different child, harder at school and always in trouble or doing this and doing that.

SPEAKER_04 6:25

Yeah, that was more me. My brother and sister are closer in age, so there's a five-year gap between myself and my sister and a seven-year gap. So they're closer than each other, and and um that that's great. Uh they they they were quite good at school, or or they weren't as bad, where where I just rebelled and felt like the world was against me, and you know, it's everyone else's fault. And um, yeah, I so I was I was definitely the the police visits the school, calls your mum, and takes you home, and and yes, I I was the rat back.

SPEAKER_05 6:57

Yeah, yeah, right. And uh family history, anything within your family in regards to military first responding? Nothing, nothing, no. So where does it come from? Obviously, you join 2006, you get that inkling a couple years prior to that. 2001, September 11 happens. You got any concept of no because eventually, you know, down the track, you're in Afghanistan because direct result of not at the time, not at the time, no.

SPEAKER_04 7:21

If I was gonna be honest, no, it's um I had a an older friend who was 14 years um older who I started trying to go to the gym and um and and try and get a rid of the a bit of the testosterone, the anger as I was, you know, in my my mid-teens, and he was New Zealand Army, and he was telling me what it was like there, and that's the only connection. And you know, he definitely churched it up and told me some stories that I don't think ever happened, and but it he great guy, and that's what led me to do it. Then that simple, yeah. That simple.

SPEAKER_05 7:54

No, it was movies. Any you're watching any of those movies, old school Charlie Sheen, Navy Seals, or not really a bit of black hawk down, a bit.

SPEAKER_04 8:01

Uh but but but uh only when I got interested. Before that, I would I wasn't watching TV, I was I was out, you know, running the streets on the push pushback, you know, summer with the with the hoodie on, right? Like I was um, you know, not not doing anything good. So it was only when I got their the itch that I started going, oh well what is this?

SPEAKER_05 8:20

Yeah, but like you said, when you first joined, you really had no concept of what to do in the army. Zero.

SPEAKER_04 8:26

Like I I I I honestly and and it's similar to politics later. It you I fell into it and I fell into the army and uh didn't understand what Capuca was. I didn't understand that then you had to go to a place called Singleton, and you know, all I knew that is I didn't want to I I wanted to be in the infantry. That's what I wanted to do, and I was pretty firm on that, and it was just because the only bit that I could research or looked at was infantry, was you know, it was gunfighting.

SPEAKER_05 8:55

You enlist 2006, mate, from there. You look at the defense force at that stage, team wars going on, Iraq's on, uh Afghan, uh it spun down at that stage, but I think uh SF were over doing SOTG's just started, which uh you know the regular army started 2007 uh doing our rotations over there. So much going on. You get down to Kapuka, run me through this process of getting to Kapuka. We know that you weren't a disciplined child. Now you get into a place where it's fold your socks this certain way, or fold your handkerchief this within dimensions, you know. How did you go with that initial shock?

SPEAKER_04 9:32

Actually, quite well, because I I think I needed discipline from someone that wasn't the parent, like wasn't my mum trying to be mum and dad. And uh, you know, I I I remember having uh the bed thrown out the window and all the cool stuff and all the good stories it's people tell now, and thinking, what is this? But then I looked at these professionals who were infantry secos, who had operational experience, who were tough and but also fair. It was never outside of the realm of what they should and shouldn't be doing. Um, I I I I learned uh slowly, but I learned well. So roll your socks this way, couldn't do it. Weeks, mate. Like I couldn't do it. I just didn't understand how to get this thing with a smile in it. And I was like, and then I was like, well, why? And when I started being curious, I started being able to learn quicker. So before it was not curious, don't care. You know, you want me to do it this way, how about stuff here and I'll do it my way. Now when I was curious, I was like, oh, why do we do it? And they're like, Well, we're trying to build repetition, we're trying to build discipline, we're trying to build structure, we're trying to build all these things. I was like, oh, okay, oh yeah, okay, I can do that. And then I learnt. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 10:42

So a happy environment too, and that's why your socks have to be smiling.

SPEAKER_04 10:46

Yeah, and also you do hard things and you do dangerous things cautiously. So, you know, you're you're doing things that regular people don't do that would be considered dangerous, but you're doing it in an environment that is maintained and structured, yeah. I love the structure.

SPEAKER_05 11:02

Yeah, yeah. And I think you've got to look at it too. A lot of guys that's had those, you know, troublesome uh growing up through the younger years, but joining the defence force, it's almost like a lot of guys are on a some sort of a spectrum where they find their it's like their brain brain finds purpose once they like like yourself, like me, like like Scojo did. The light flicks on, right? It does, yeah. Uh how long's Kapuka back then?

SPEAKER_04 11:27

About uh three months. It was 90 days, wasn't it? Three days, three months, and then so three months there, then uh three months in the and that's it as infantry? Infantry. Oh well back end, yeah. Sorry, yeah, yeah. Because I was at ECN 500. That's right, yeah. Um, which I've never heard of that before. Have you no? Yeah, ECN 500. Um, I don't know if they still operate it, but uh, I didn't mind it because it made me get in the system and then they just find you in places. So uh you have I had there was a a Cav sector who's like Cav's cool, dude. You want to come to Cav? But I was already mindset and set on something, and then they'd all try and talk you into their core. Um and yeah, it was it worked well for me. And went to Singh. I was the only one that went to Singer. Only infantry guy. Yep, only well, I think that maybe um yeah, no, I was the only infantry guy. Yeah, because I was the only one that went to to singer. So majority of that Kapuka is probably like like you said, ECN. Is that that's the red one? It's okay. What's that mean? It's the Senate means they're gonna go vote on something. Yeah, right. Yeah, Wild West hero. It's Sabrin.

SPEAKER_05 12:29

It's dead said Batman. Where's Alfred? Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, so that'll go for a couple of minutes. Yeah, well, for listeners, uh yeah, again, the red red flash is going off. Uh, they're probably voting on something stupid anyway. My words. Um, yeah, right. So like like I said, probably majority of your Capuca class is probably the same thing, ECN 500, where Yeah it could be, yeah, yeah. I uh I remember that lots of changeover.

SPEAKER_04 12:58

Um people didn't like it, people couldn't meet the the standard. I think uh I think we went half nearly halved. Uh and it wasn't taught, it was just uh the the you know the attrition of it. And um, yeah, so they could be doing the same. Lots of people at that stage there's lots of arty people as well. I was they might have been getting pushed a certain way because of you know what what's what's needed in Iraq now, what's needed in Afghanistan or what's well I guess they were using a lot of Arty in those early days. Yeah, weren't they? The Brits were for sure, yeah. And even if they they they weren't using them then, the thought process could be, well maybe what's next. Get it ready, yeah, yeah. Because if if we go the same way the Brits go or the Yanks go, we're gonna have Arty everywhere.

SPEAKER_05 13:43

Yeah. So you choose inventory, you go up to single by yourself. That's got to be daunting, you know. At least when I did it, I'd and Scojo did as well, you know. We'd travel with 10, maybe 15 blokes, you're heading up to singo by yourself.

SPEAKER_04 13:56

Still a troublemaker though, right? So I'm still in my mind, I'm still I'm still cool because I I I back myself uh to to walk into a room and and find either friendship or foe, but I I still feel comfortable in either of the circumstances. So uh yeah, I get there. Um they left me at the gate for like three, four hours, no one picked me up. Um just welcome along. Welcome.

SPEAKER_05 14:17

What's it lone pine barracks? Is that what's called? I think it is. Yeah. Is it lone pine barracks or something? Oh, we should though. We've been there. We've all been there. Hang on, let me just quickly pie. I'm pretty sure it is, or is that Capuca? No, it is Lone Pine Pine.

SPEAKER_04 14:34

Yeah, so I get there, um get put into uh a platoon where near every one of those guys ended up going to AR. So um I didn't know at that stage, but I went in and it was good, gelled well, um, met someone.

SPEAKER_05 14:47

You enjoy that uh infantry life. Yes again, for the listener that's not uh you know understanding of what IETs or singleton is, Kapuka's, you know, building the fundamentals of being a basic soldier, and then obviously you move into your initial employment training. Obviously, if you're an armoured guy, you go down to Pucker, infantry guy, you go to singo, and you learn the specific trades of being an infantry soldier, which is pretty pretty much learning how to kill.

SPEAKER_04 15:10

Yeah, and I also found that um these guys were at a different standard from where I came from. So I've come out of this um capuca platoon, I've rocked up in the single, and they would self-uh punish. So if someone had stuffed up, they're all out without any of the instructors doing push-ups and doing heaves, they're going for runs, they are self-determinating their their fitness level, their their mateship. They were teaching each other and helping each other. And I was like, this is where I am, this is great. There were some fights, and that was cool too. Like this was a part of this really alpha kind of group, and there wasn't any sort of like any clicks or any it was friendships, but it was like, no, we're in this together, we've got to get through it together, because if we don't, we fail together. And I like that, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 15:59

And your um instructors at uh single any what's that mean?

SPEAKER_04 16:06

That means I might have to run.

SPEAKER_05 16:08

Oh, here we go. All right, the bat signal.

SPEAKER_04 16:11

I'll see if more.

SPEAKER_05 16:12

Do you have to put a shirt on or anything or a jacket, or you just go down there?

SPEAKER_04 16:14

Nah, I'll go down in can you just go down in there? I'm going down in the zero limit shirt.

SPEAKER_05 16:18

Yeah, there we go. Is it gonna be on TV?

SPEAKER_04 16:20

Uh it will be, yeah. The uh division, uh real division. I'll be back.

SPEAKER_05 16:26

That's all right. Alfred's here.

SPEAKER_04 16:27

Skyjo, don't touch my stuff.

SPEAKER_05 16:30

Quick pause for the listener. Phil's uh dipping. He's off. He's uh Alfred's gonna sit down and have a chat. Sky Joe, jump in. What's happening, mate? That's what they like. That's what they like. Uh Phil's back. Lights and sirens are off. What'd you what'd you vote for?

SPEAKER_04 16:54

So there was tax policy that um going through that we didn't agree with, and the government has this ability to say, I put the question, which just means they're shut down debate, so you can't talk about it. It's kind of like guillotining. And then my side goes, Well, that sucks. We don't want to we want to keep debating it. They say we don't want to, and then we have to vote on on that. Oh dear.

SPEAKER_02 17:14

Yeah, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_05 17:15

And then we lost. Of course. Oh, we lost the Labour government, ain't their tax policies. I think no one agrees with it but them, which it does make sense, but a lot, a lot of them are disconnected from the real world.

SPEAKER_04 17:26

Oh, correct. All politicians kind of are, right? And then, but you should be still out of debate. Yeah, 100%. Cutting that out's probably the worst part. It is just saying, no, no, you can't. Nah, don't worry about it. We'll just push it through because they've got the numbers right.

SPEAKER_05 17:41

Phil Thompson He could be prime minister one day, and we're here with a future prime minister. Imagine that.

SPEAKER_03 17:50

Imagine that.

SPEAKER_05 17:52

The red one. Is that does that mean uh Senate Senate?

SPEAKER_04 17:56

So they're they're gonna obviously be fighting on something, are they? Just punch it on down there. I'd come back, come I'd come back prime minister if that happened.

SPEAKER_05 18:06

Uh mate, where were we at? Uh talking about Singleton. Uh any of your uh instructors uh guys that have been overseas, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:16

Iraq or Afghan or a couple, um there was some old school and then there was some new school, like Iraq. Um, and there was this one guy, he he was a really nice guy, but uh he uh did selection and um for at the time four hour hour and uh got Bosnon Rio. But but because he got to that, he was just this legend. Like he was like everyone he he was walking on water, everyone's asked him everything, and he was just the king. Uh, and he was uh a six hour hour guy, and and he he was good, like he was teaching everyone stuff and talking about operations, and he the the best advice he gave was all of you are rushing, you're gonna deploy, you're in you're in the time. This isn't the long piece, so stop rushing it because everyone's like trying to map out on the unit you want to go to, so who's gonna deploy next?

SPEAKER_05 19:09

It was always yeah, head to a northern unit because it just I know because five seven was closer to the rest of the world, you know what I mean? Everyone's like, go to 5.7 because they're deploying next because they're so close to the rest of the world, yeah. All right, 5.7 is people like no don't go to 5.7, yeah, and uh so you get to end of obviously throughout your um single experience, 10, 10, 15, 13 weeks or something like that.

SPEAKER_04 19:32

Yeah, I think it's another another three months, I'm pretty sure. I think it's 90 and 90. Yeah, and then right at the end, you do the uh you can pick your or your preferences on on where you want to go, um uh to to what you want to choose. And so I I I I was like, well, if I go to Brisbane, like to or if I choose six RR, that's too close to home, and I need to kind of spread the wings a bit. And then Darwin, no, I wasn't overly keen on that. Rams down prison. And then and then uh I chose uh I chose one RR, but everyone else, bar I think two, all went to two RR. They there was only two of us that got to choose and got what we um chose, and the rest got told two hour.

SPEAKER_05 20:17

Yeah, so how many went to uh one? Uh uh two. And the rest of the platoon went to pretty much two hour. Two arrow, yep. Second to None, they say, or second to one, I say.

SPEAKER_04 20:27

Well, if the if the if they were all that good, then they would have got to chose where they could have gone.

SPEAKER_05 20:32

Yeah, right. So from there you uh obviously or everyone flies up to Townsville, mate. How did you go? You know, this is where you live now. This you you know, you're a a politician up there now. You spent a lot of time up there.

SPEAKER_04 20:45

How did you go moving to Townsville again from down here to or down so Armadale way and yeah, so m moving to Townsville was unique because I didn't have I didn't go into live in accommodations, I went into transit lines, yeah, and I went into transit lines with 40 other dudes who had done the uh their IETs in one area. So this was the time when they were trialing IETs in units, and so we finished around the same time, and I went into this transit lines with all these guys that had all been there together, and um as we as I kind of went in, uh it was really good, but uh they all literally bunked on each other the whole way through, and there was this like box room full of like just crap, and but it was its own room, so I just cleared that out, took it as my own, and was like, this is mine, and uh yeah, I've now got lifelong mates who we you know, I I didn't know I think it actually I I think I did three weeks before I moved off uh but I was in transit lines and it was the wild west, yeah, the parties, yeah, the fun, um the you know, the the the camaraderie, it it built warriors.

SPEAKER_05 21:55

Did you guys gel in quite quickly? Yeah because obviously we're talking that. IETs up there. They've spent the last 10 weeks with the section commanders of 1RR. So they've built a bit of a bit of a rapport.

SPEAKER_04 22:08

No, we're pretty good. They're all just like me. So I went in and saw myself in all of them, right? Like even the ones that are a bit older, a bit younger, they're all just like me, from uh either a trouble, trouble background or just troublemakers themselves. And that that's what that's yeah, we were all that. And even the the Secos were good because when you get there, it's you're not calling your Secko Corporal anymore. You call them Davo or you know or Lipsy or whatever their name is, and you you've now you're an adult. So you've made it, you're an adult. You you're still you know, it's still a jube, you're still, you know, still a baby, but you're you you're not 19 anymore. So you had that bit more leniency. And so even though they had the rapport, that they're experienced, you know, full tracks. And this was the back in the day when you were a 10-year corporal, like right. It's not like now where you're an 18-month corporal. So these guys have been around the block, they're good and quite competent.

SPEAKER_05 23:03

Yeah, and like I said earlier with your uh instructors at Singer, a lot of these guys have either been a Timor, done a Solis trip, maybe done Iraq. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:11

And I also found that uh I I don't know, I I have this ability to I gravitate to to learn off people. Like I'm I have a curious mind and I want to know why. I want to learn how, and just so it makes me better at my job. And once you start asking those questions, the door opens. Yeah. Because I they're like, okay, you're on the gun, that's fine, you know. But uh I was like, well, how can I do it better? Like, how do I do it? And you'll have a second go, what do you mean? You just carry it. And I go, I don't want to just carry it, I want to operate it. I want to make sure that if we were to deploy and I was on the gun, then I am the best gunner that you have. And I don't care if a new person comes in that and they bypass the gun responsibility, I just want to be good, teach me how, and they appreciate that.

SPEAKER_05 24:00

Yeah, yeah. You don't deploy until 2009, so you got a couple of years. No, 2007. I went T More. Oh yeah, yeah. So um mate, you didn't even listen to it.

SPEAKER_04 24:10

I did oh you see it up the top there. Oh shit, sorry, man. Timor 2007.

SPEAKER_05 24:13

I'm just a dumb dude.

SPEAKER_04 24:15

Sorry, boss.

SPEAKER_01 24:16

Sco Jay, you want to take over for a bit? I thought T More was an exercise.

SPEAKER_05 24:21

I thought Twilight X. It pretty much was, I think. I think yeah, so we're obviously there in the same same time-ish.

SPEAKER_04 24:29

Yeah, so I I actually so I've been on like three plane flights now. Go down, you know, travel around and then come back up to one hour. So I've now traveled for the first time internationally, and with a gun, with a gun, and and with the boys, and it was cool. So I saw a buffalo for the first time, like a buffalo, dude. Like a buffalo was near me. This is so I'm there, a bunch of people who can't speak English, a buffalo, and I'm like, this is I've made it, like this is the pinnacle of my career now. And but what it did was teach me how to operate better in a small team and how to operate uh with within an environment that's complex, challenging, hot, and multinational.

SPEAKER_05 25:14

So and a threat out there. And a threat, yeah. Well threat.

SPEAKER_04 25:17

Well, you know, the fretlin, that was the time of the elections.

SPEAKER_05 25:20

Um sorry, what months did you do that?

SPEAKER_04 25:22

Oh, that would have been probably around May 2007. Yeah, what do you mean around May 2007? How long did we go? To October, five months. Five months, yeah. So we definitely would have crossed bars and we yeah, so uh and then I think two took over from us. Did um were you the guys that f uh through the um at uh CSM at your CSM you you smoked your CSM? Yeah, yeah, good. That was three, yeah. Classic. Of course. Just well behaved boys, right? The uh but I I enjoyed it because it was it gave me uh exposure to helicopter operations on the Black Hawks, um, got exposure with uh going out in in your in my mind at the time hunting the enemy, doing the jump for real, disrupting local militias. First time I've ever been um not shot is at is the wrong word because it's more like a slingshotted at slingshot. And they used to file down the um like a flathead screwdriver, and that's file that down, and then they'll slingshot it. A guy it went through a guy's armor, like it's bad stuff, dude. Like, and you'd have that just whizzing past and still not allow to go to action on your rifle, but it it was it was crazy if you're in the middle of a of a of these two groups, and teamaries guys aren't aren't very big, but they're agile and they're quick and they can throw a rock a a mile and they get pretty violent. So I enjoyed that. I enjoyed the the being in it for the for the first time.

SPEAKER_05 27:02

Yeah, yeah, of course, like I said, and just for listening, 2006 teamwall erupted, went crazy, burning down stuff and whatever. It simmered down a bit, end of 2006, simmered down, 2007. As you said, the presidential elections kicked off, and then within teamwall, they've got you know, rather than yeah, you know, they've got their Labour Party, Liberal Party, One Nation Party, but they're like gangsters and karate, and they got the they're all into karate and all that jujitsu, and they wanted to just but they wanted to kill each other. Yeah, literally wanted to kill each other.

SPEAKER_04 27:31

Yeah, my um my platoon that I was in uh became an international incident when the uh the officer and a few people stole a fretlin flag, yeah, um, took it down, and yeah, that they got sent home by that. Yeah, yeah. It was because it was international news, international scandal. Because I I can't remember political party, but the fretland party wasn't like a good one, right? I'm pretty sure they were the bad one and like the corrupt one. Um and if they're not, and if they're not, this is alleged, please don't sue me. But it that's how it was kind of like framed. Yeah, and so they took it down and then they got yeah, photos taken of them, and it was all bad. And but uh that guy's actually still in and doing quite well in his career. Is he? Yeah, wow, it is what it is.

SPEAKER_05 28:13

Uh yeah, right. So during that time, yeah, and this is your first time you get deployed overseas, carry some live uh ammunition, carry good aid, carry this, carry that. Actually, you know, do your job and live out the life of an infantry guy.

SPEAKER_04 28:27

Yeah, absolutely. And then I got I got um I got attached to RPs, so the regimental police. Get out. And um the RP, but the our RPs at that stage were full of um recon snipers, and uh they were there's a guy, Gav Whiteside, who um uh he played Azru, he like he's you know, rugby legend. And um, so he's there and he takes under his wing and I started asking him questions, getting curious again. And then the freedom kind of opened up now. You're not in the platoon anymore, you're in RPs. And I was like, all right, what time are we parading? And he goes, uh, we don't have those kind of timings. And I was like, Oh, this is great. So we we kind of operated on a roster on a shift work, and I ended up uh out there playing basketball at one of the like like the H pod or something like that. And this uh older bloke sat down, and he sits down in front of me, and he's like, Oh, you playing basketball? And I said, Oh, yeah, if you want, mate, and we're throwing, shooting some hoops, and he gets one in, and I give him a little bum slap as he walks past, and I look over, and this like young guy's just got his mouth like on the ground. Turns out that was like the commander of the whole task force in, and I had no idea who was. I was, you know, 18-year-old digger. I was like lucky to know who the CO was, and I'm bum slapping this guy, like like spiking him when he's trying to shoot the ball. Next day he sits down with all his rank on and I was like, oh, and I was like trying to work out what it was, and he's like uh aide de camp leans over and goes, Yeah, major general. And I was like, What's that? He goes, This guy's in charge of everything. I said, Oh, okay. And he goes, Do not touch him again. And I was like, and he but this guy was like for once in his whole lot, whole career now, he felt normal. Yeah, because no one knew who he was. Yeah, and he's getting like shouldered on the basketball court, call your own foul. Like, I'm pretty sure there was like some uh gangster basketball movie out that I just watched, so I was like practicing all the moves, and yeah, and yeah, so it was a good kind of awakening to if you treat people normal, they actually appreciate it.

SPEAKER_05 30:33

So you you're doing that RP stuff and just all isn't a regimental police. Yeah, basically it's just like a you know, you got the MPs and then you got the each of these regiments or each of the, you know, the infantry um battalions that have their own RP guys, and it's kind of like a buffer between if it got too serious, they're like, well, I'll pass you on to MPs. But if it wasn't, yeah, the RPs will take control.

SPEAKER_04 30:51

Well, I uh I yeah, the only reason I got attached to them is because one hour was uh part of the group was going home and this wasn't a tran a transition time and they just needed a hand with some transition. I just put my hand up and they're like, Yeah, you want to go home? And I was like, To what, dude? Transit lines, I'll stay here, dude. Yeah, so it was uh the and which was pretty good. And uh I learned some stuff, and then turns out that Gav Whiteside was actually um the the sergeant, uh I think it was the sergeant, yeah, it was uh or newly just promoted to the um recon platoon sergeant. And so when we got back, uh came down and said, Do you want to um jump on the recon course? Oh see, and not supposed to, it was still too new, like that for for context. This is back in the day where uh uh a one-year, two-year digger doesn't go on support company courses that you don't get to do this stuff. Um, but I I did it, passed it, got posted a recon platoon, and yeah, and then within this stage, we're getting told, hey guys, Afghan's coming up. And then we're like, oh, what does that mean? Yeah, what I do now, and like just wait out, a support company will they'll come to support company first.

SPEAKER_05 31:56

Yep. So two thousand yeah, 2007, the first uh RTF one uh goes over to Afghanistan. So that's on the radar now for the Australian army, or more specifically for the inventory. All the battalions are fighting for for a position over there. You get back, how'd you go get back from Timor and just you just because you're young and getting on the booze with the boys and just living the infantry life?

SPEAKER_04 32:18

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I went and bought a Commodore. Um didn't wrap around, I guess. No, no, they didn't wrap it around. I went and bought a Commodore causing trouble at the Magau. Um, you know, out there just just getting back. But also uh curious to learn because I know that Afghan's coming up. I uh I might I'm switched on to to what this means. Um but it that doesn't mean I wasn't out causing trouble. I was like uh my you you you need you don't pick you're not a rap bag growing up and then it goes away. Like it I was still getting marched in before the C O N R is so I'm really so in my mind uh and how I think of it, I I'm really uh not maybe not really, but I'm good outfield and I'm good on operations, I'm bad embarrassed. Yeah, because I'm I'm I'm not busy. Yeah, and if I'm not busy, I'm doing stuff, and if I'm doing stuff, it's not good because it's you know, I'm I'm going out with the guys, getting them punch-ons in town, yeah, um, you know, getting getting arrested, yeah, or you know, all that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_05 33:15

Uh I I remember just a young soldier, really, yeah. 18, 19. Yeah, with like-minded dudes. Yeah, yeah. Finding other people 30 of you, 40 years, 50 years, you know, two platoons worth of guys just going out, getting on the piss and absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 33:27

And the and this was when MPs used to walk the streets too, and they've brought that back. But it I remember yeah, they brought it back as wild.

SPEAKER_05 33:34

Um three battalions up there now.

SPEAKER_04 33:37

Yeah, they then they need to have MPs there. But the I I I remember going for we're going for a run, and the it we we came across another unit, and uh the officer uh who was running like leading, you know, how you run in formation, they're running off to the side, and all I hear is don't you move. Yeah, and I look at him and I was at the front and I go, What? He goes, Don't you move? And we ran through this other unit. And at the end, I said, Oh, why do why do we do that? Aren't we, you know, one team, one dream? And he goes, No way. We're at war. We're at war, yeah. And he goes, but if we find someone that's from Darwin, we're at war with them first, we'll come together. That's it. But right now, every other unit is is is your competition, yeah, and go win. Yeah. And and if you were uh well, I had a great CO, great RSM for a long time, and they said, If you if you were in trouble and you got in trouble in town, and or your friend did and you didn't help, you're getting punished. Yeah, you're in it. 100%. You lose together or you win together. Yeah, and if it's with another unit, don't come back if you lost.

SPEAKER_05 34:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 34:39

And you would stand there. I remember standing in front of the CO, busted eye, uh, I think, yeah, busted lip, like bruised all over. And and the RSM goes, Did you win? And I said, Yeah. And he goes, get out. I was like, okay, walk out. There's and in my mind, I'm like, Oh, you want us to be tough. You want us to oh, I think it was also, did you start it? And I said, No. And that's was the the the key. If you're as long as you're not starting fights or not starting trouble, you're okay.

SPEAKER_05 35:05

Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's funny you say that because you know, we look later on down in the life with PTSD for you know, guys getting out now and the the transition troubles they have, and I guess for the understanding for the part for the listener out there, like our first role was to kill. Our second role is to back, you know, or and back up your mate at the same time. But it's hard to transition out of those mindsets, you know, when you get out of the military. But so we'll talk about that down the track. From there, you like you said, you go down to recon platoon, get issued some razors so you can shave your shave your legs, and you do recon course. How'd you find that? Because obviously, again, back in those days, I'm sure it is now, one of the toughest courses you can do is obviously recon all snipers.

SPEAKER_04 35:49

Yeah, so we had a you do a pre-selection, yeah. Um and there's uh there's some guys, uh like a lot of a lot of uh two commando and SASR guys um that were in recon platoon one area at the time, or to be um like you know, there's a guy called Corey Jones. Um he would run the PT and he's massive, right? There's uh a few others. He's a giant, probably still yeah, still serving. And so you get there and they do a pre-selection. If you don't pass pre-selection, you don't do the course. And the pre-selection is 24 hours, I think it's 24, maybe 48, and and they just punish you to the point where you you you've got your your hands at shoulder, your palms facing it, just doing little circles, and then you do that for a bit, then you'd put it point them down, then you'd follow the other way. Next thing your shoulders are sore, but then they'll be like, Oh yeah, here's a torsion bar, we're doing a torsion bar worker, and then the middle of the night, clack rounds off, and you're like, Yeah, we've got stores that have to go to here to here, or a hole that's needs to be dug there and then filled in. All these things to trick your mind into why are we wasting our time? But actually, it's going, can you do hard things and can you do them quickly, smoothly, and then get on with the job? So it's just testing resilience.

SPEAKER_05 37:04

Yeah, and how long's recon course?

SPEAKER_04 37:07

Oh I don't know. I don't know now. A week or two? Yeah, I'll tell you in a couple of weeks because you can do barrack stuff and then you do uh well because they break it up. They do it exactly like how the snipers do it. Break it up into um your visuals, so you know why things are seen. Um, you've got to pass all that, then you go out field, then you've got to do your judging distances that before you even get to your patrol stuff. And then you go to Cali Beach, which is a horrible place in the world. I remember on the I think it was the second last day. Well, uh so in the patrol's only made up of guys on a course, so it's not made up of an experienced person leading a patrol. You you got it's just you guys, and you're on the same course. One person's in charge this day, one person's in charge that day. And I remember we're crossing uh where the the sea kind of comes in past them uh one of the mountains, and we get uh over the radio and no duff uh um crocodile sighting, and it was exactly where we were. Um I was waist deep, and we all looked at each other and we all just slung our rifles just into the water, and everyone's just pulling knives in. And I was just sitting here going, I'm not dying by a croc, right? Wow. But the the DS watching, they expected you to maintain your discipline still, uh, with your prickly heat, with your with it, with a croc that's near you, and it was just that's the worst. Yeah, there was the first time I experienced it, and the one of my mates, um Sammy Fowl, who went over Perth as well, he uh he had prickly heat on his face. And I was like, Yeah, I was like, hey, get on your face, dude. And redhead, right? So uh but yeah, and he I think yeah, that one, and there's another guy from Perth, uh um, Scotty Clark, who um who who was on my in my patrol as well, and they were all just full of prickly heat and just and I had it all over me and were like pouring um isocol on each other and just like trying to survive. But it was it was a great course, it was super tough. And for all the all the uh you know, banter people say with you know, oh you're out there shaving your leg. Whoever shaved their legs and started this stereotype, I'll find you. Did you shave your leg? No, dude.

SPEAKER_01 39:22

Come on, that line. It's 2026, you can do whatever you want. Were you in heavy weapons? No, I was mortars.

SPEAKER_04 39:30

Well, for all my mortician friends, I will won't say anything, but let's just know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was great and it was tough. And um, but we we bonded. And these guys are they're they're they're high level, these guys. And recon, obviously. Yeah, five men teams. Yeah, uh, and but these guys are high level. And because the way I see it, and it may not be true like how it works, but it was like, well, you do your infantry, you do infantry, and then this is kind of like the advanced infantry, you know, where you kind of hone all those skills that you've learned, put in a very small group, and then go out, find someone in a remote area with no support, no one with you, uh, and report back. So report back on the enemy, their vehicles, their TTPs, you know, draw fire lines, all that kind of stuff. And I I enjoyed that. I I the only part I didn't like about it is I I wanted to like even in training, I'd be like, can we just go get into a gunfight and then would withdraw or whatever? And they're like, no, our job's to watch. I don't mind, but I want to go bang, right?

SPEAKER_05 40:35

Like, yeah, which you do, we'll talk about that. But actually, just quickly for the RSPCA that's listening, Corey Jones. We did speak about this on his podcast. He did shoot a donkey. Anyway, he's in contact with the Taliban. There's a Taliban that's just ducking and weaving around this, you know, this this uh aqueduct, and all he could see was gunfire coming. They've dropped this Taliban fighter, and he could just see something else moving there, so he shot it as well. And it's just they've gone up to it, and it's turned out to be a donkey next to the Taliban fighter. But so that's what that was spoken about on his podcast.

SPEAKER_04 41:10

Bet he had ICOM on him, it's clear. He had ICOM, I could tell.

SPEAKER_05 41:16

Mate, um, yeah, right. So you finish that uh recon course down posted down to the sport company. That's red light. And um how how often does this happen?

SPEAKER_04 41:28

Well, the Senate, it depends what's on for the day. So if it's the the Labour's tax um uh policy, this will go until about 11 o'clock at night every 10 or so minutes. Just in everyone's office, everywhere. Everywhere, everywhere there's that goes off everywhere, everyone in the building. Wherever there's yeah, yeah, because if it's you and you're saying um up on doing some media, yeah, that it goes off there too. So yeah, because you've got to run down, you've got to get down quick. Yeah, um and yeah, Alfred said you have to use the stairs too. Yeah, uh well, he has to use the stairs. So only um only members of parliament can use um and senators can use elevators um during a division. Yeah. Because you you have a time frame and if you miss it, they lock the doors.

SPEAKER_03 42:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 42:08

And if the numbers were close and you miss it, you could lose it. So if you were the government and you were down a number and the opposition had an extra one, they could lose the their whole bill and tax policy could go out the window.

SPEAKER_05 42:19

So if you're running down the hallway, you could just probably trip up someone.

SPEAKER_04 42:22

Yeah, you just like drop a shoulder.

SPEAKER_05 42:24

Give them a little angle tap.

SPEAKER_04 42:25

Yeah, if Barnaby runs it straight at me, I'll fold him. Oh but the uh the um uh the I think the the uh the the bells for the red one that'll go all night because our side will oppose all of the um all of all the changes. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 42:43

Well well above our heads. Uh yeah, right. So you're down in a sport company now, as I said, uh Afghan is starting to spin up. 2009, you get your trip to Afghan. What is it? When do you get the word?

SPEAKER_04 42:53

Oh well, it actually it gets it gets a bit weird in between. So I get a I get a phone call and they go, All right, um we want to put you on two courses. We want to put you on the advanced tracking course. Yep, and uh, and or it was the uh PMV uh driver's course. Uh huh. So I'm sitting here going, I really enjoy recon. I want to be great at it. Tracking is important. But but they need drivers. We ain't tracking in the Middle East, yeah. So I went, oh okay, I'll um I'll go to the driver's course. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 43:27

Went down Which at that stage it was only six hour hours that we're doing the driving. Only six hours. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:32

Bushmasters. Bushmasters, yeah. So I went down to uh Bendigo and I I absolutely hated it. I did you didn't enjoy any bit of it. Um but got the quall, did it, you know, caused caused a bit of a ruckus down in um Seymour. Did it be? Yeah, and uh got uh we the the CO of the down at um uh Bendigo uh where we did our training, he's like in Paco, they're like, You gotta go, like you guys you gotta From one hour, just wrap back, just yeah, like I I I wheeled a gun down, one of the guns down the hill. Um, I was trying to tip it, and it was from the parade ground, apparently. And they're like, dude, what are you you can't do this? I was like, no, we can. And then just you know, putting one R stickers on everything, just being soldiers, yeah. And uh, they're like, Yeah, you we we don't want you here anymore. And so we we we finished a week early, I think it was, or or five days early, got my little license, can drive a PMV, get back to one RR. They moved me uh from Recon Platoon, uh, or now it's Recon Sniper Platoon, we can we merged, uh, to Alpha Company, which was the combat team. So Alpha's the combat team, Bravo's the reserve team, Charlie's the the operational mental liaison team, the omelet, the training team. I was like, cool, go down to Alpha Company, didn't gel with the the officer or the boss, and didn't gel, it was very new, and I didn't really gel with the um uh the the platoon sergeant. It just they were treating everyone like babies. And coming from Marie Con when it was, you know, we'll wear uniform when you want or when you're working to high standard, but you know, you you're treated like an adult to go on down there and getting treated like a baby. I didn't I didn't really didn't really feel it. And we're going out in live fire, and I was like, Yeah, that's fine. I'm I know what I'm doing, I'm fine. Went out and uh I was laying probably four people to the right of the officer or the boss, and his job was to clack off the claymore, and all I hear is snoring, and the the mateshift, you know, enemy have gone through the the you know the the uh the kill zone and I just get up and walk over, and here's this guy asleep with his feet at the claymore, snoring. And so I leant down, grabbed my my Sharpie and rode on his boots front towards enemy, and then just walked back. He wakes up, loses his mind, like lose like NX. We we've finished this exercise now, um, early, like four or five days early. Go back to towns, all these gun berserk, he's threatening to kick everyone out, who did it, who did it. And I just said, I did it. You're asleep in the you know, when we we're we're supposed to go to Afghanistan and you're asleep when we're gonna ambush and someone, people are gonna die. And he's like, Okay, no worries. Walks away next day. I've been moved out of um the elf company and moved to I think Bravo the Reserve kicked me out on said that I had a uh a niggling injury that he noticed that I was hiding. No injuries, like I'm you know, I'm 20. You don't get injured at 20. Yeah. And um yeah, moved me and I was in reserve, and he's he was he was quite happy with himself. And uh about probably about six weeks later, I was still still training, still doing everything I can get a new RSM posted in. Uh Darren Murch is his name, and he's you know, little guy, uh, very angry, and no one wanted to go near him. And I saw him walking across where the gym is, and he's just marching away, and I just went, I'm just gonna go talk to him. So I ran over and said, Sir, um, can I have a word? And he just goes, Yep. And I turned and he and then he just stops me halfway and he's like, Why aren't you an attention? I was like, I don't know, okay. And then he said, Oh, what is it? And then he said, before I even start, he goes, hurry up. And I said, Well, I'm SR25 qualified, I'm P and V uh driver qualified, I'm recon qualified, um, I've got experience on deployments, I want to go. And he just goes, Is that right? And he took a step right up into my face and goes, I have an opening in Charlie Company. Do you want to go to Charlie Company? I said, Yep, I want to go to Charlie Company. Posted me in Charlie Company an hour later, walked over. I'm the newest and youngest out of everyone because they pulled all the senior people into the training team. Because in the I was in team one, in the training team, had uh, you know, two sergeants, a full track, a lance jack, and now me a digger. And so walk in and they're like, all right, we're doing a 40-clicker tonight. And I was like, Yeah, okay. And he goes, and I expect you to know all the patrol bases, uh, and we're gonna run through some SR25 drills because I didn't realise at the time that having an SR-25 qualification is something that they all sorted and needed and wanted, yeah, but they couldn't get it because all the snipers were doing all their stuff training and because snipers deployed as a cell. And I was like, okay, so having that qualification, they're like, Yep, this is really why you're here. Uh, because you don't use your PMV. I drove it once in six months. I drove the PMV once, and we drove to Sarab and back, and that was it. Um, so yeah, get in and they're like, Yeah, you're the long rifle guy. What do you do here? And everything, the answer was clear, like, well, shoot them, right? Like, at least this is the answer. And they're like, Yeah, but if you're on this hill and they're here and they're moving here, and I was like, Well, okay, I moved to get a clear site, I shoot them. And they're like, Yeah, I don't think these scenarios are working. I'm like, I don't get it, man. Yeah, what else do you want me to do? What do you want me to do? Like, and then we did the 40 clicker. Uh, no one in the omelet dropped out, so not one person dropped out. Combat team had you know 15, 20 people drop out. The reserves in Bravo had all these people drop out, and um, so I was like, I'm in this, I'm in a strong group here. We've we've we've got medics, we've got um FOs, you know, some uh some Artie guys, and they're they're in it. And I was like, I like this because they weren't dropping. I I knew the infantry guys didn't know the others, and they would they were just they were hungry, hungry to win, hungry to be there. They ended up doing everything together, they would eat together. It became our own little gang. Like we we did everything together, and the combat team often thought the omelet thought they were better. Yeah, yeah, we did because we just we we just did stuff different and better, and it created a bit of tension before we left, but it was uh it was good. I really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_05 50:10

Yeah, it's funny you talk about like because you spoke about that before having um you know, with other battalions you have that that rivalry. Now you're having that rivalry within yeah, yeah, yeah, you got it inside. That's what it is, you know. Alpha Company hated Bravo Company, Bravo Company hated Jali, small company hated everyone else, and then Recon hated heavy weapons, heavy weapons hated mortars. It was just a just just the mindset. But like you said, it's when you go to war and then shit goes downhill and everyone sticks together.

SPEAKER_04 50:40

Oh, absolutely, and I but it's healthy competition. 100% it is, and I remember as we're getting closer to to deploying the the realness started to kick in, but not that much. Like I was I I just start thinking, oh, it's probably like Timor, just like you know, different language, more bad guys. Yep, didn't really understand the IED threat.

SPEAKER_01 50:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 51:00

Um, and if unless you've been uh downrange, you don't you don't really understand the uh casualty um or what could happen if you have casualties or if people die or get wounded because you don't see it, right? Like yeah, you you know these guys, they're all solid operators, you don't understand the oh I definitely didn't. I never thought about someone being hurt or killed or anything.

SPEAKER_05 51:20

And the ID threat, like you said, Iraq had a different ID threat because generally majority of the stuff the infantry were doing in Iraq was vehicle mounted. Yeah, obviously we're doing a lot of vehicle mounted stuff in Afghanistan, but also a lot of foot patrols through the valleys and wherever and ID threat, which we'll definitely talk about because you uh got involved with that. What when did you deploy to Afghan? I went since uh I went in May. We were the first to deploy.

SPEAKER_04 51:44

Uh went to Kuwait first.

SPEAKER_05 51:46

Yeah, so you go to Q8 for that one week uh climatization.

SPEAKER_04 51:49

So right before we left, um my mate Ben Renardo uh picked me up. I was just gonna bring that up. And uh and Ben said to me, he goes, Be careful, it's dangerous. The A cannot be trusted. Because we're going over to train the A. That's our job. Omelets to training team. Go teach the A how to fight, how to win, how to survive. And you know, I said, Oh mate, we'll we'll be good. And he was we did our driver's course together, we did recon together. And he's 22 when he died.

SPEAKER_05 52:18

How old are you? 21. So you're 21 now, same ages.

SPEAKER_04 52:20

Yeah, yeah. So he goes down, he was enough company, he didn't get kicked out. Um, but he's you know he stayed down there. And um, you know, we're we're all very tight, and and uh yeah, so he gives me this this uh not not not speech, but kind of like that brotherly love, you know, keep your head down, dude. It it's real.

SPEAKER_05 52:37

Yeah, exactly right. You know, just looking at the numbers here of KIA before you know you turn up May 09 by then. I think there's been 10 uh Aussie soldiers killed in action, you know, one from 7-0, you know, when when I'm talking more infantry guys, Matthew Hopkins, and before that was all SF guys. Um, so there's deaths happening. This is this and this is a real deal. But you you yeah, but uh you can't feel it yet, no, right?

SPEAKER_04 53:02

So anyway, we get to so young, right? Yeah, like if you said, Oh, there's a chance that you could get in a fist fight, I'll be like, cool, I know what it feels like. Yeah, I know what happens, I understand. It is what it is, it is what it is, right? Um, and then we get to Kuwait and we rock up, it's hot, it sucks, um, there's heaps of Americans there, and you're like, Americans, they must be really good and and solid. Nah, not the ones that were in that were there at that time. Like they were, you know, they could be transport operators and like they weren't door kickers, and then there was like fat alley where there was hungry jacks and Wendy's. And I was like, how do you have this in Kuwait, dude? Like, aren't you guys supporting the operation? And anyway, it was wild how they they operate. And then they said, All right, be ready tomorrow, we're going out to run the kill house. I was like, Yeah, cool, cool. And went out to the uh got up in the morning, we went out to the killhouse, we get there, and it was this old dude, like 60 odd, smoking a cigar at five in the morning. So you know he's you know he's cool. He's been it, you know he's done it, you know it. And you know, he's an old um uh you know, dev grow guy. Yeah, and he gets there and he's like, all right, everything that you have been taught, I'm gonna teach you different because your CQB is nowhere near what you need to be doing. Because he goes, yeah, run the go run run the you know the gun, go through, and we go through and he's like, Nah, nah, we're not doing that. This isn't gonna, this isn't how this is gonna work. And then he would teach you how to stack different. So you gotta remember when there used there was a a video where uh uh a unit, one of our units, stacked um on a on a koala and then threw a grenade and they all laid down on the ground. Like so he the this guy is trying to prevent that because it's not Hayes by store. So you get there and he's like, I don't want you even stacking on the wall. I want you walking there, and by the time the first person touches, you guys should be that close that you're already walking in. I don't want you laying on a wall, I don't want you doing all this, I want you to to smoothly transition from your entry to uh from your outside exit to your entry. And I was like, okay, and I said, why? He goes, Because you're on a wall, if I was a gunner, I would kill all of you. I was like, all right. And I go, is that happening? And he goes, Well, some of his buddies, he goes, some of my buddies from our teams do that. That's why I want you to walk and if you have to stack, touch and move, and it works so smoothly. Go through shit, all the targets to all the cool stuff. And um, he's like, Oh, uh, how do you know um if someone's dead? And I was like, I don't know, what do you do? And he goes, You flick that fucker in his eyeball. And I was like, Oh, in this like tough American accent where he's smoking a cigar. I was like, Oh, cool. And they go, What, you bend down? He goes, uh no, no, with your barrel. He's like, and he's like, that's how you check him. I said, Oh, okay, okay. And he goes, There's another quicker way. And I go, what's the quicker way? And he goes, Well, every time you walk into a room, if there's a person who's dead, you shoot them and keep walking. 100%. Because if that person's laying quiet, if that person's not whatever, you you don't know, if they're a combatant, you're in the gunfight, you shoot and keep walking. I was like, Yeah, I get that. It seems like good advice.

SPEAKER_05 56:19

Yeah, and which it turns out to be really good advice because that's what you needed to do. Oh, you don't have time to get down and check his pulse. No, it was you don't want no enemy behind you that can possibly still be alive, which has happened on numerous occasions throughout the world.

SPEAKER_04 56:32

Correct. And this killer house was it was like a um a mud hut, so they could stand on top and look down and watch. And it was really it was like everything. I know the one you're talking about. I I did that training there too. Everything you can't do in Australia, yeah, for some stupid reason, as soon as you leave the country, it's now uh the risk the risk profile's changed. We should be doing that in Australia.

SPEAKER_05 56:55

Dangerous things cautiously, train how you're fighting. Correct. And that includes gear as well, because again, back then we had to wear all that terrible gear. Well, we when we go overseas, pre-range, whatever you want to wear, you you wear it.

SPEAKER_04 57:07

So we had um we got issued McBass, but then war Eagle Marine. Yeah. The but the combat team had to wear McBass. Yeah. Which was terrible. How do you can't shoulder your weapon, right? Yeah. Anyway, so then we uh I think it was I don't know, a day or so later, uh, we wheels up and flew into Afghanistan. And that was that was a cool flight because you have all your gear on you, and you're like flying around and it's weird, and you don't really understand where you are. And then uh yeah, you you land, and we landed in um TK, and and they said, All right, in two hours you're gonna be on helicopters. So we didn't even stay over in TK. Oh, didn't you? Nah, nah. Where'd you go? Straight to trail base? Straight to the trailbase. Which one?

SPEAKER_05 57:51

Qtis. Oh, did you? Trailbase cutis, yeah. Yeah, right, yeah, right. So yeah, because you get there, what's the May 09? I left Octo November 08, and I'm pretty sure, yeah, most of it was built by the time I left. But obviously, by the time you get there, then it's fully functioning. It's fully functioning.

SPEAKER_04 58:08

So straight in, so we get there, and they're like, Alright, so give me a um yeah, a star with a GLA on it, and the SR25's at at Cutis. And I was like, Yeah, cool. And I'm like, what happens now? And they go, Oh, is your kit packed? I said, Yeah, you got it, you got your trunk? Yeah, and they go, We'll get ready to fly. And I was like, All right, next thing you know, shinook rocks up, and we pack it, and we got our whole team on it. Half the team goes to Bumen, half the other half goes to Cutis. This is the omelet team. How big are these teams? Oh, so it's got I know it's got a captain, a subby, a woe one, uh, woe two, two sergeants, two medics, two JFOs, two JTACs, and then the training team. No, no, then um uh a uh full track, two full tracks, two lens stacks, two diggers.

SPEAKER_02 59:05

Oh shit.

SPEAKER_04 59:06

Yeah, and then so so captain one way, subby the next, woe two goes with the subby, then the other um sergeants go with the the captain. Yeah, that's how it kind of broke up.

SPEAKER_05 59:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 59:17

And I I went with the captain and the the two sergeants. We were we were so team still team one, but we just split like that.

SPEAKER_05 59:24

Yeah, and then obviously each of those teams go to a respective uh went to job base.

SPEAKER_04 59:28

Went to Cutas, flew in there, landed. Guys didn't look like they've showered or eaten anything healthy for a long time. Big beards, big attitudes, you know, love it. You know, and they were they came down in the Polaris because you come down the hill. Seven area or five. Uh I think it was, I want to say seven.

SPEAKER_05 59:47

Maybe it was five seven back. I think it was five seven.

SPEAKER_04 59:50

Might have been. I can't remember if they I can't remember when they delinked.

SPEAKER_05 59:53

Yeah. I think it was five seven, I'm pretty sure. I remember doing the handover with them, nursery patrols.

SPEAKER_04 59:58

Yeah, and they that they were cool, right? They came down really, really uh honest. So you you've got uh their their digger telling my captain when he's wrong and what's going on. And they'll they'll inno him, like you know, no, that's not how we do it, this is how we do it, this is why. And I I respected it because on operations, rank means nothing.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:18

No, rank means nothing. This is a new concept for the defence force, war fighting, because like we did in Kapuka and Singo, we were doing everything based off of Vietnam. Yeah, you know, these days it's changed now, they're doing trench warfare and all this stuff. It's Singo now. So to learn that, you know, current environment by someone in country, it's invaluable.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:38

Oh, it was great. And so we uh it was the nursery patrols are quick though, it was only a couple of days, and so we went up. Uh they were moving out of accommodation, we're moving in, and they we wanted they wanted to go out next morning, which I thought was great. Uh, I was the first, uh I was on the first patrol, uh, so it was my boss, their boss. You know, it was very much just a quick little nursery patrol round to the Sphinx feature. Um, they didn't they got hit recently around that area, so there was a bit of area that um they hadn't punched past just for a bit just because of the their threat level that they had. But yeah, we get to the Sphinx feature on the first patrol. First patrol out, it was cool as, right? So you you you hit the gate. As soon as you hit the gate, you know that it's you're you're on here, you are you're racked and stacked, you are you are prepped, and all the boys before you go out are all checking your stuff. So this is there's no respawn, there's no round two, that's it, there's no substitute for second in the in the gunfight. So yeah, the guys are all over you.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:40

Which was proven ten times before you guys get there.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:43

And these guys have lived it. We're new. Yeah. My cams are nice and green, right? I was like, this is very new to us. And they they're walking over your kit, making sure you're good, making sure you're you're you're you've racked, making sure you're if you've got a sidearm, that's that's at the appropriate readiness. I carried a one back gun as well. Okay, one back gun. Which is a 40 mil. Yeah, 40 mil uh Vietnam. Yeah, it's awesome. Yeah, you know. So I've got I've got all my kit, and they've got and they are they are so professional. And I was like, oh man, these these diggers, professional. I love this. So I'm like, all right, so that's the standard. Anyway, so you go out, and the first thing you do is you see the first person, you're like site picture. I know, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:24

And they're like, that's just Jimmy down the road doing his thing, no way about him.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:28

He's just he's the farmer over there. And I'm like, why's the farmer got some um what are those? The yellow palm oil containers, those things go bang. They're like, Yeah, but Jimmy doesn't go bang. We'll look, we'll introduce you, we'll show you around and things like that. I was like, oh, yeah, cool. Anyway, we go around the Sphinx feature, and they wanted to walk up it. This thing's this is Mount Stuart, right? Like, I was like, this is wild. Start walking up, get halfway, and then all we hear is stop, stop, stop. And I was like, haven't heard this. What's this mean? This is new. And they go, We think that's an IED just in front of us. I was like, okay, well, I know what we should do. Let's just leave it, let's go, let's let's go. And then uh my boss turns around and hands me a Garrett wand, which is the old wand you used to get wand at uh uh airports and security, the handheld one, like 30 centimetres long, and goes go check it. 21 year old, and sphincter like yeah, just parkering. What the I was like, I can do this. I walked over, like quickly doing it, quickly doing it, and I'm like, no, I don't think it is. They're halfway, they're hiding, right? They're like, if this goes off, then then now I would never do that. I would be like, that's a bad order bang. Yeah, but no, we're not doing that. Either pin it and get someone to drop some busy or drop something on it, or let's shoot it. Like, why would I go over a digger who's not qualified? Never used a hand hold magnet thing before and heavy feet, like walking around like an elephant and trying to get low enough to see if it goes off. And I'm like, does it you have to touch it? Like, how do you do it? And then I like it's bad, right? And this guy, he doesn't talk to me anymore, he's really angry with me. He brushes me and writes nasty things about me on LinkedIn, uh, because I've told this story a couple of times. And but if he wanted to refute it, he should. Uh but he he did it, and it was uh lack of leadership on his behalf and lack of knowledge on mine. And so, but we did that. They're like, we should go back to the patrol base, you know, probably some IDs around here. And it was like, okay, cool. And then we get back and they rip out, we rip in, and and then it's game on.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:37

Yeah, right. Did it turn out to be an ID? We'd never know.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:40

Never know. Like as if I uh I I can't say like I did I got got it right because I how would I know? Like, I was yeah, I probably didn't even have it on properly. Yeah, it's just like robbing this thing around.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:53

Uh yeah, right. Uh so your first couple of months in Kudos, going fine, going around, just walking around, patrolling around.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:00

Yeah, getting like um little little skirmishes here and there, you know, IDs going off here and there, nothing too close. Uh not it's I wouldn't really I wouldn't call it a contact because I was in the I was at the back with the the A and they got shot at from the front, and then I was just like they were like, all right, everyone pause. I was like, pause, no. I was like, open flank, let's go. And I was trying, I was bounding my guys forward and also trying to fight, but never found anyone. Yeah. But it was um, yeah, it was it was good though. It was it was good learning. Uh A and A would get in gunfights with each other and locals all the time. They that they were wild.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:39

How many of those guys would you be mentoring in these omelets?

SPEAKER_04 1:05:42

Uh I would have eight on mine, so sixteen nineteen on patrol.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:51

So there'd be nineteen of them on patrol with two diggers, two corporals.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:57

Uh no, no, so so one me, digger. Take or take nine or or thereabouts.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:02

One digger takes nine. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:03

With who else? No, just me. And so that so but this is a part of the large call sign. Yeah, of course. The command element and then the front element. And then if you when if you're going low and tight, I would take four, three or four under me, and then the command element, then the lead element. So the lance jack would be the lead element normally. Yeah. Uh or the full track would be the lead element. And then I would be the rear element. And it would swap every now and then, but it was more of a um the the long rifle and the gunner, they they like to have them at the rear. So if the the first group gets in contact or blown up, these guys can fan out and get in the fight.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:42

Which pretty much like the omelet turns into a bit of an Afghan platoon type thing. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:46

Like, yeah, and we're mentoring them, and they all think we're sergeants, so no rank. They all think we're platoon sergeants, and then they they just think that this guy's the boss, and then that's it. He will salute me. Why are your heels not together? Oh yeah. It's like um with the so I mentored the guy who carried the um uh their long rifle, the I can picture it. Dragonoff, dragonoff, yeah, 716. Yeah, yeah, but the dra mate, the dragon he didn't have the eyepiece on properly, so he he he would lean over and look through his second eye, and every time he did it, I was like, oh, you're gonna shoot someone for sure. But he he'd love to just walk around and start shooting at people and you know, seeing how it works. Country their rules, yeah. These whole this whole view of how you're gonna get all these war fighters, you'll get a couple of of guys that have done some SF work or or been around the NDS, um, you know, their policing force and stuff like that, and they're pretty slick. And then you'll get a guy who's been there for a year, he's from you know, down the road, or or uh he might be from Kabul and he's just doing this to get a bit of money, and he's just happy just to smoke, and yeah, and then just like get you know, chase the dragon, right? Yeah. So there's there's some warriors and some not so warriors.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:09

Yeah, so like you said, there's a few things, you know, a little few little skirmishes going on, nothing too crazy, a couple of ID, any ID strikes before um just vehicles, so in front of us, bushes, yeah, bushes, but not ours, like we didn't use ours much.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:21

Um, but you still don't understand like how it works. Like you you see the plume and you hear it and you can feel the vibration, but you're like, uh yeah, I could probably take that. Like in your mind, that's not a big thing. Which you did, and uh yeah, and uh not well, uh but it and then we started our patrols started getting longer. We started doing overnight patrols as well, which I really enjoyed because imagine being in an area where uh these this whole village and group of people want to kill you, and you've rocked up with some Australians and you've decided to stay the night. Like it's just tough and it's good, and you you I enjoy it. And the the only thing that was interesting is we used to do dead man pickets because we didn't have enough Australians and the A and A would just fall asleep. So you're putting a lot of faith into into into say a a captain. Like I got faith in the diggers, I got faith in the soldiers. Yeah, of course, but you know, into some some officer. I don't know, it made made me a bit nervous. Um or or yeah, it it's it was it's pretty wild, but it was good, and inside the patrol base it was good too, because you you'd always pickets every night there's picket. There it's no you don't no days off. Um because you just you have to make sure the A are manning the towers and you know behaving and doing the right things themselves because you know they they all don't always. Yep. Um and then we if we fast forward a little bit, we it's now uh July.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:48

And it's the 18th of July. And on the 18th of July, I was in the gym early. And kudos. In kudos, and we're on a little bit of an elevation, so uh we can look into the valley, and I hear some black hawks coming, and I'm like, haven't heard over the radio because I when you're in the gym, even though that the guys are manning in the CP, you always grab the radio so you can hear what's happening. Because if there's uh you know uh IDF coming or if there's contact somewhere, you can connect it with all the places, yeah. Yeah, and you can also the the CP doesn't have to try and find a comms rock to wake someone up, you can go wake everyone up and be like, oh, get on with doing this. Anyway, so I don't hear anything, and it's all gone quiet, and uh it was just abnormal. And I see these two black hawks like nearly touching the green zone, like they are they are they are just super low and low and fast, nose down, just banking in hard. And I remember going on, I don't understand what's happening here. So I went into the CP and oh on the other net, it was there's a prior one and a prior four. Prior one, if you don't get to a hospital within an hour, you're gonna die. Prior four, killed in action. And I was thinking, what does that mean? Like, is this one of us? Is this what's happened? It turns out it was Alpha Company, and uh Ben Renato was killed in action, and Paul Warren lost his leg in the same IED blast, ripped his leg off above the knee. So Ben died instantly, but Paul's now bleeding out, and these black hawks are just like, we gotta get to them, they're gonna die. Get there, pick Paul up, saves saved Paul's life, and the medic on the ground did it did the great job, uh, and Ben's dead. And so at that time though, they didn't tell us who it was. So I know there's a prior one and prior four, no names released. Half an hour goes by, no names released. An hour goes by, no names released. So I'm calling now, I'm calling the talk back in um TK, and I'm like, who is it? Like, what why why don't we know? Oh well, we can't, we can just tell you it's health company. Well, that's sorry, that's not good enough. Why don't we know? And then our illustrious leader comes down and goes, I know what to do to distract you. I'm gonna take on a patrol. And we're like, what do you mean? So we go on a patrol, this half-baked, half-assed patrol just out the front into an area that I could take no weapon, no body armor, and go buy food just to keep us distracted. Now, distracted soldier, dead soldier. Now, everyone was professional, but we wanted to know what was happening. I wanted to know if do we need a drive somewhere? Are we do we do you do you need us? Do you want us to send our medic? Do you need what do you need? Because now you're vulnerable. Came back. I just jumped on the phone and uh called Cock Michal and they said, Yeah, Ben's killed, mate, and Paul's loss is loaded. And then I turned over and the officer, the boss knew. And I was like, What why don't you tell us? And he goes, Oh, I thought if you knew, you know, you you you wouldn't be, you know, ready to be in the fight. And I go, I'm not ready to be in the fight because I didn't know. You have to tell us this stuff. So anyway, it goes over the net then uh who it was and what's happened. And uh then it was like, Oh, well, we need to talk about do we not now go on patrols for a bit? And no, you have to go on the patrol. Yeah, you have to, you can't not do this. Um, I got a phone call probably early the next morning, and they go, Phil, we're gonna pick you up uh take you back for the ramp ceremony, and uh we'll drive you to TK. And I said, Yeah, sweet. So I went to TK the next day. Uh we drove, it was a horrible drive. I don't know if you've ever driven that road from multiple times. Uh so we I never did, right? So drove through the Bellucci. I did jump up the back of the of the P and V and I threw up out the back. And then this uh takes about eight hours for about 12 kilometers. Yeah, and you got I I looked out and there was you know, a really nice guy, um transporty, probably first time outside, and and he's like, Oh, my job's to be on the back. And I was like, dude, I'm fine here. Like, you know, I'll I'll just man the gun for a bit. And he's like, Oh, well, I'm trained in it. And I was like, okay, cool. Anyway, so I stayed out the back for a bit. We get back to TK. Uh it's not real yet. So I haven't been upset. I've been angry because we didn't know, but I was angry command for not sharing. I'm not angry or upset yet of what's happened because I'm kind of like a bit oblivious to it all. Like I'm kind of like, oh, you know, what's kind of happened? Anyway, I kind of get there and walking around, see all the boys, shake all the brothers' hands, and I walk look over, and there's this big white conics, and then just a photo of Ben Renato out the front. And I was like, oh, and I just went to water, like I was just so sad and hurt, and couldn't understand why. And I'm looking, and there's he's just his photo, he's just smiling back. And then we made the decision, and we didn't get told we had to, but we made the decision that we would stand uh and I don't know what attention, but we would stand there and protect protect. So we did that, and then they told us when we're doing the ramp ceremony, and they go, Oh, all right, you need to sort yourselves out who's doing what and what's what's happening. I'm not very tall, so they said um I couldn't match with with someone to carry, so they said, Oh, will you read the eulogy? And I said, Yeah, sure, read the eulogy. Writing it down, can't can't read it, getting upset, even writing it. And I'm like, oh, what do I do? And this was all happening so quickly, like it was just moving so quick, and all the boys were still rocking up who were gonna from other patrol bases and combat teams who were helping out, and we all had this kind of discussion that we just need to get on the phones and call our loved ones and just tell them what's going on. And I was like, okay, walk down to the phones, and there was none available, and I know this sounds weird, but I was like, why isn't there any phones made available to the mates that we call, you know, a brother who'd just been killed? Why can't we get on the phone? And these people that were there were very arrogant, very um, you know, you gotta wait your turn. And then me and uh Anthony Meichner, who's a great guy, gave them all about two minutes to get out before we were gonna punch our way through it. And uh they all got up and left and said we were gonna put complaints in, and we're having we're having a bit of a a sook about it, but we got to call our families, and this some of us haven't called families for uh several months, but get on the on the phones and I pick up, uh I call my mom, and I couldn't even talk. Just all came over me, and she knew it was me, and she just said, You just gotta be strong. I was like, and then as she said that, I knew that I had to rewrite the eulogy and deliver it. And if I can't deliver it, I'm gonna give it to someone else to read. I was like, yeah, cool, I can do that one. So I get on, I get off the phone, just kind of hang up, and then the next day we do the there's a ceremony, and I walk up and all my mates are all out in the sun, and all these generals are all in the shade and it pissed me off to no end. The brothers are out there, the war fighters, the guys in it, are all stuck in the sun, and all these, you know, having fired a rifle people that are in the shade sitting with their feet up. And I remember going, I don't like this. So I get up and I give a preamble to my my eulogy, and I just tore shreds off all of them, swore all through my eulogy, and then I walked off and I said something at the end like um because there's a bunch of shooters in there, and I said, You guys gotta go kill them. You have to. It's your job, and I expect you to do it. Walked off. I was a few more uh four-letter words in there, but uh, I remember getting grabbed by a an RSM, not mine, but A1, and they go, Yeah, we'll be talking about this, and don't be surprised if you'll be sent home. And as I went to turn, I ran into a a I think it was a a sergeant, um SAS guy, and he just looked at the RSM and goes, You send him home, it'll be one of the last things you do. And then never heard anything else from him. Then we line the uh line the the street or the in the the tar map, put Ben on a plane and sent him home, and they gave us a couple hours and then they sent us back and we went out and started patrolling again.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:59

Back at the back in the five just just a couple of things out of this. Now we'll talk about you know, obviously the politics down the track and head shed, you know, under the shade, and diggers out in the sun. We'll I want to save that for down the track, but uh I think a valid point you bring up there, you know, you know, I guess we're going through this war crimes rubbish, you know, we have for the last you know few years now, and it's getting a bit pinnacle uh with things happening, but you looked at these SF operators, the shooters, said go kill these guns, yeah, go get them. Yep. That's what our government told these soldiers to do as well. And now we're throwing them under the bus. You know what I mean? Like it's and you knew the fact that's what these shooters do, that's what their job is to do. And they did that for they went, you know, like we we speak about Hec Matullah when he shot the three boys. The boys are like, get the SF boys out there and find this cunt and kill him. Kill him, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:04

The issue I have with all of this, and whether it's Hecamatoula or or other all these other terrorists, is we have an elite unit here in Australia, and their job is to hunt down, find and kill. You want to ask them to go do it, and then all of a sudden you want to tell them that how they did it wasn't right. Their job is literally not to go uh you know and put band-aids on on people, it is to go hunt down the enemy, and I expect them to do that. And as a member of Parliament, I expect them to do it and do it well. That's what I want from that.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:44

100%, 100%, and it's good that yeah, that it's Sergeant from SASR pretty much, you know. Had my back. Had your back. Yeah, because he knew he knew you know he's been through it, you know, he's lost uh, you know, Sig McCarthy, um Matt Locke, Andrew Russell, all these guys from SASR, he understands the pain that you guys are going through and yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:04

I just I I I don't understand why a view of of a senior enlisted or senior officers, their view is you've got to make the ramp ceremony and funerals look good for the TV. That's what they say. You have to make it look good for the TV. I I don't make we don't want to make it look good for the TV. We're not we want to honour a brother we're sending and a part of that in honouring him is making sure that the people we have that can travel the nation and find these scumbags and shoot and kill them, they do that. I I don't Hekamatullah should be dead.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:45

He should not be in jail, he should not be You should be spending $350 million chasing him rather than chasing her own babies.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:53

Mate, it's I I don't get how any government I do, I I get it. People go, oh well, if we can arrest them and put them in jail, we should. These are not people that operate like us, these are people that would kill women and children mercilessly and our own souls. Which they did. And they have, yeah. And numerous occasions. And still to this day. Yeah. Well, then there's JPAL lists, right? Yeah, to get on a JPEL list, you don't have to qualify too much. I uh you can put someone on a JPEL list, uh, which is the list where that person could be having a shower and they could die. You can put people on that list, it's the will that people lack and the fortitude that they lack that there's not more on it. Yeah, like the US haven, they have the deck of cards. Anyone on that list, you could be dead at any stage in any way, and people around them. Absolutely, and they they still have the US have in the UK rewards capture or kill. So Australia, we we lack the fortitude when it came to those that have killed our most bravest. Yeah, and we shouldn't have. Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:58

Uh all right, mate. We got a bit political there. That's uh we'll save that for later when you get into the political side. From there, obviously, uh Ben's killed. You're going through all this emotion, but again, like we've spoken about on the other podcast, job goes on. You've got to eat it regardless. Eat it, eat it, swallow it, save it for later. Yep. Get back to the kudos. Rather than showing the enemy defeat, you get back out on the horse, get back out in patrol, get back, you know, gain the initiative again. Yeah, so get back out.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:26

And go to the area where uh where where Paul was wounded and Ben died. Go to the area, seek out the area, be in it. And um we we did that quite a bit. And I'll gotta what? Give it away. Someone will take that.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:47

Um sorry. His uh advice is coming again. It's a life of the politicians.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:53

Well, he was just telling me that I have a 90 second statement um in 20 minutes, and I just said, Oh just yeah, pass it on to someone else.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:59

Yeah, yeah, just go job. You're off for it. Yeah, you can't handle the truth. You suck, you suck, you suck. Get out. Stand in attention.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:11

And so you go, yeah, but you go back in the you go back into the belly of the beast. Because that's where it is. Yeah, you're in the belly of the beast. You know, you're not and now it's real. I've seen and felt it and understand it. This I'm yeah, I didn't before, and now I've I feel the chaos, I feel what it what it feels like uh to be in a war. Because before I was just going through my I was bulletproof, and still I probably thought I I still think I I probably am. But uh during that time I saw what what what when you're not you're not bulletproof and you can bad things can happen and your mates can die.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:49

And that's the mindset that the infantry or even the army in general instills into you during training, yeah. That you are bulletproof, especially when you get to an infantry battalion. It's different to the rest of the army.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:59

Well, we ran through the group, remember? We ran through that unit. We are bulletproof. You are told to be bulletproof. Did you start the fight? Did you win the fight? Yeah. Like this, this is they're prepping you for this. War fighting. Yeah, prepping you for war fighting. And then uh, yeah, so we we were out there, we're doing it, we were getting into it, uh, we're going out and fighting the enemy. And then uh around a couple months after, uh, we started going for different patrols in different routes, and the A were okay, but they were very nervous around this certain area in a place called Kujvar Ahmed. And we didn't really understand why. We just thought they were, you know, just doing what they do, which is trying to get out of hard stuff and go on hard patrols. And we were walking back from a patrol, and we're walking back the same way we walked in. And you know, you don't want to do that. Don't what you want to do? Set patterns, setting patterns. Uh, everyone's everyone's a spider, everyone's watching. And uh, I remember uh the the Afghan um group going, you know, no, we we know what we're doing, we're fine, don't worry about it, we always do this. And we went through a corn crop or some sort of cropping. I was one of the last people, they went one way, I went the other way, and I pumped out in in the wrong area. So they were all down, you know, near an aqueduct going through the green zone, yeah, just punching through. And I've ended up on a big steep kind of aqueduct in front of like a small cropping area and then a koala and then like a building, and then with a verandah on it. And I'm sitting there and I'm like, oh a radio, I'm like, you know, I'm a couple hundred metres away. Um I'll be there in a sec, I'll jog it up. And then I look up and I see this this guy standing up there, and he was kind of like looking, he couldn't see me, but he could see all the other Australian contingent, and he was looking down at him, and then he was kind of moving his head back and forth, and I tried to have a look at our guys, and I was like, I think he's counting. So I get down behind my rifle, SR2 SR25, didn't leave home without it. Yeah, and I get good scope on it, good scope on it, could see if you've shaved in the morning at this kind of distance, and I look at him and I get on the SBR and and and I go, just wait. Like, I think this guy's can't just wait. And then I took a sight picture and I flipped it from action to instant. Just I had this feeling distance? Uh about a hundred, 120. Um for the books, 300 metres. Yeah, 700 metres. End act day, 750. Uh and then and then as I was as I was just watching him, he he bent down and I was like, Oh, this is weird. And he s as he stood up, he lifted a rifle to about his hip. Okay. No, like a SKS. Oh, yeah, yeah, right. Yeah. And as he lifted it to that, I just shot him in the face and right above his left eye. Blew out the whole back of his skull, went all up against the back of the koala. And as I did that, I just went, Yep, contact, and just said single shot. And these guys just turned around and they like all jumped down. And then I just waited, and then uh a motorbike just took off, like as soon as it kind of happened, and they just sped off, and then there was everyone was running around, and I was just kind of like sitting by myself going, Alright, what happens now? And then I just grabbed the round or the casing of the round, put it in my pocket, and then A refused to come over. And as they refused to come over, those were like trying to encourage them to do it. So maybe 10 minutes felt like an hour, they're just sitting over a couple hundred meters away from me, and I'm by myself, just like a bit terrified. And they finally came over, they sat down, and they went, We're not going in that koala, we're not going in through the turp. And the Aussies go, oh, we will. So we just stacked up, full Aussi brick, boom, hit the house, went through it all, found some stuff, get to the top. And as I get up there, um the my mate Sean O'Lochlin, he was with me, uh, one of the the owners of TAC Med Training, and he just looked down this guy, it was like little little hole just above like a finger, about pinky finger above um his eye, whole back of his skull gone, and uh just everywhere, like brain Scojo distracting me in the background. But there was um just just clarity. It was it was wild, like I've never seen anything like this in my life. And this is a direct result from your bullet. Yep, me. Yeah, I did it, and um, it was a single shot engagement, good kill, clean kill. And I'm standing over the body with the SR25, and my um uh terp came over, and he's seen and just starts crying, like he's just first time this has ever happened in his life as well. And he's like, What happened? And I go, Oh, you know the that bang sound, and he's like, Yeah, and I go, it was me. And he's like, Oh now what? And I said, I'm not too sure. Like, take photos, what do we do? Like, do we search the body, get all the phones and stuff? And then next thing you know, call of prayer comes on. And the terpe goes, uh, Mr. Thompson, this is well, Mr. Phil, Mr. Phil, this isn't this isn't good. And I was like, Oh, what is it? And he goes, They're asking people to go to the the mosque.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:41

Are they?

SPEAKER_04 1:30:41

Yeah, and I'm like, okay, what kind of people, Johnny? And he's like, bad people. And I was like, okay, by the time I turn back around, he's already gone. And he him and the A and A are walking off. They're done. They're like, we're not getting in, like, this is bad. All the uh Aussies are now there, so we're all clear the house, gone through it all. I saw all the other Aussies are with you now? Yep, they're all up there. So he got back up at least. Got back up, got the boys, the boys are here, and um they're like, Oh, this isn't good. This is you know, what do we do here? And in my mind, I was like, no, we fight, obviously. And the the commander, the the um who was a the sergeant, so the officers were back at the patrol base, made the decision. They go, There's not enough of us. There's there's three three guys of shooters, and you know, uh a medic, no offense, medic's great, right? But he's this isn't his day job, um, and a JFO, and we got nothing and the JFO's like, we got nothing online. There's contacts all around, and the ANA's fucked off. And the A's gone, and there's all the um a lot of the SF guys are all down um kicking doors and helming. So it was it was really kind of chaotic, like it was a chaotic day. And uh yeah, they're like, I think we just start walking, and if they if they come up the the back, we we do what we do, but let's let's move. And I said, okay. And as we're walking out, these couple of Afghan locals started walking in, and we're already heightened, so we pat him down, do what we do, walk in, pick this guy up, this Taliban guy up by his ankle, the dead dude, dead dude, yeah, dragged him out of the koala, out of the house, dragged him across the road, just kind of dropped him on this makeshift kind of knoll where there was other uh burials, because you know they don't bury down, right? They bury up, it's really weird. But in my mind, I was like, Oh, don't you have to take him for washing and cleaning and days and like all that? No, dragged him into this like little shallow grave, put a few rocks in him, and then they just walked off. I was like, okay, he's not from here, he's a bad dude. Foreign fighter, foreign fighter, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:40

And then we uh took off and sorry, just quickly had the SKS on him or you know variant of any other intelligence on him?

SPEAKER_04 1:32:49

None that I no, oh I don't I think he had a phone, but like my mind's not working like that at the moment. My like I'm through the next level, right? Like I'm 21, I just killed a dude. Yeah, and um never happened, don't know how this is supposed to feel. Uh doesn't feel uh I don't feel bad, I don't feel upset, I feel relieved that he didn't get to kill my friends, and I was like, I don't really feel anything, and then that started to make me feel like a bit weird because I should feel you know what I mean? Like a yeah, yeah, I should I should feel this, but I don't and anyway, so we we we're walking back, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I it was kind of like remember that old saying, uh what do you feel recoil? I didn't feel I didn't feel um I felt recoil, but I didn't feel like sad about it. Yeah, the emotional attachment. Yeah, and then I started feeling oh, she should I should I feel bad that I just you know shot this guy in the face and you know his whole back of his brain is on the wall, or like should I feel and I because I knew if I didn't do that, he would have killed my friends. 100% another Rhym Samarini I'm going to another coffee I'm gonna have to watch be carried and another eulogy. And so I I I felt very comfortable in in it. And then uh yeah, we walk back to the patrol base, you know, good kill.

SPEAKER_05 1:34:05

Um and like that could have been he could have been the initiation to contact the dude was on the yeah on the scooter, he zipped off. Like you said, there's a call to prayer, everyone's heading to the mosque, it's got a gene up for a could have been anything.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:16

And so we we get back there, and all the other patrol bases um are calling in, you know, to check in, but also to go, good work. And I was like, Oh, cool. And then I didn't even know what happens next. So the next day, uh I'm not on the patrol, which is okay. We roster in and out, and next thing you know, I've got uh you know Major General Mike Kelly flying out on a helicopter with some MPs and all this, and I'm like, oh hi guys, like what what are we doing? And they it's they do an internal investigation, which I suppose is probably you know what normally happens, I just didn't know. And they just make sure that you you had a good kill, and um, yeah, it was really good. Uh uh there was an internal investigation. Uh the special forces guys helped out, they leaned over and said, Yeah, we've hit that house before with that koala before. Bad guys go there. It's actually see it's on our map, see that red box around it, like we go there a lot, uh, which was good. Um, and Mark Kelly uh came and said, Uh, did you do the right thing and can you live with it? And I said, Yes and yes. And he goes, Right, investigation done. Carry on. And I was like, What investigation? What do you mean? Didn't you ask me to come to Afghanistan and give me a long rifle to do this job? And he goes, Yes, but we investigate every kill. It's the due process. Yeah, and I said, Okay, that's fine. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:35:33

Which is interesting because the SF world, like, everything is happening. This every death that was done in Afghanistan was investigated on the spot within days. Every single one, every single one, SF, infantry, whatever, every death that the Australian lives took was investigated at that time. Yep, yep. And approved okay or not. Yeah, absolutely. Everything was okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:56

Yeah, absolutely. Interesting, interesting. And um, and then uh yeah, I I went out back on patrols the next day and um everything was was going well. And I I ran to Gav Whiteside from Recon, who was one of the platoon sergeants um in Alpha Company, and uh he was the platoon sergeant in um when Ben was killed. And uh yeah, he came over to me and he said, Um, thank you.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:22

Yeah, you have you got that round on you, uh casing?

SPEAKER_04 1:36:24

Uh I have it in my house, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:26

Absolutely. That should be when you're prime minister, that's good. Well, it reminds me not about glorifying killing people, but that's that's life, mate. That's but it reminds you of what freedom costs what the government sent you there to do. It's what freedom costs, right? Yeah, exactly right, exactly right. Now what's going on?

SPEAKER_04 1:36:44

No, I shouldn't have dripped on, it's probably just sleeking.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:49

Moving forward two weeks.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:51

Yeah, two weeks.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:52

This is where the game changes again.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:54

Yeah, not a good time until anything happened within that two weeks?

SPEAKER_05 1:36:57

No, just patrol them, trying to troll them, yeah. Out of kudos again, still same thing. Same thing.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:02

Uh live in the high of of uh you know getting one back for the good guys um after Ben was killed. And yeah, two weeks later, uh it's 19th of October, it's we're in the same area in Kisra, man. Right, we're nearly exactly where I uh I killed a Taliban fighter. And uh we're we're walking along, and the Afghan army once again going through the same places, this doing the same thing. And as they start to go through there, we had to jump over an aqueduct, and you know, the aqueduct irrigation system, uh, some can be shallow, some can be metres deep, can be 30 centimeters wide, or could be a meter and a half wide. And uh this is about a meter wide, and everyone's just walking over it. Same spot, everyone's going to the same spot. I get to it, I'm you know, I'm not very tall, so I've got a uh kind of rock forward to rock back because I've got the long rifle, I've got the one back gun, I've got the 66, I've got my little pack on which has everything else in extra rounds because I I never understood why the SF guys are they you know got seven mags on them, and I was like, dude, I carry it like a hundred mags because if we're getting all fired, I'm sure it's went, it's happening. But yeah, anyway, so I've got my bag on and everyone goes over. And as I get to the aqueduct, I rock forward, and as I rock back, boom, ID goes off right in front of me. So it would have been within a meter, two 82 millimeter Russian mortars uh that were were packed in the wrong way. So the blast went out and up, not towards me, uh or in front, and yeah, just threw me back. And as I was throwing back, I don't even know if I was conscious at this stage. Uh hit the deck, my body's aching, can't hear, everything's ringing, can't say I've got peppered it all in my my glasses. Uh, I feel like I've just been punched by Mike Tyson in the gut. Like I I was in pain and I was laying there confused, really not really understanding what was happening. And I was kind of looking trying to see what was what was going on, and I could see like flame and dust and all sorts of stuff. And then my medic with no regard for his own safety, uh, because everyone knows if there's one ID, there's normally two to get the first responder. Um, my medic with no regard for his safety runs through, jumps through the blast site, uh, through the the flame, through the dust to me, pulls me back, checks me over, trying to make sure I'm okay. I'm disorientated, I can't really understand what's happening. Uh, I knew that my rifle's mine and I didn't want to let go of it. Uh, and he was trying to just make sure that I, if I had any pepper, there was nothing that was near an organ or anything like that. Um, yeah, doing all the all the checks. And then next thing I I kind of remember is I'm getting Kazavak'd out. I've got a helicopter coming in, and and I I think about it and I go, they could have hit anyone at any time. The not so tall guy with the long rifle who just dumped a dude two weeks ago. Um, you know, I think it was pretty targeted. It was clear it was command initiated, and yeah, they uh put me on the back of a black hawk and had a medic with me and put me in the role two hospital in Tarnkout. And turns out there was uh uh an ENT specialist from uh Holland that was there, who's a Dutch guy, looked in my ears and he's like, Oh, I think you gotta to to go to Dubai, which because this is where the new base was. And I was just confused and a little bit angry, and they're trying to take my my my sidearm off me, and I didn't wasn't really having that. And yeah, it was it was really confusing, and it took it took a little bit to get under control. Uh, I spent about a week. What injuries uh out of all this? So I got uh fully deaf in my right ear. Um my my um eardrum and bones that are connecting towards your brain uh are broken. Uh I have a tranic brain injury, but this wasn't diagnosed then. This was later. Uh and other than that, it was just like little pepper injuries and rock stuck in you kind of stuff. So no like bad um or anything. So it's kind of like uh probably a concussion tiles a concussion style syndrome as it happened, uh, with hearing loss and you know just ringing. So in my mind, you know, take a couple of panodol in a couple of days and your hearing comes back and you go back to door kicking. Didn't that's not what happened. And so I was staying in the in the hospital, um, and I still got bandages around my head and and stuff like that, and growing a bit of a beard, and I was they're like, Oh, you can leave the hospital now and go walking to the mess and do all that stuff. And uh on the day before I left, because I just thought I was just going back to see a doctor coming back. So the day before I left, I was walking and uh I get screaming hear the screaming, this uncontrollable screaming, and comes closer. Turns out it was one of the you know 500 majors that needed a deployment um coming towards me, yelling at me for my grooming standard. Band injury on my head, bandry on my head. Just been blown up. Yeah, just been blown up. Yelling at me because I hadn't shaved. And he got really close and screaming at me. And then this uh my CSM was in TK, Mark Rutellick, and he comes over and dresses this major down. Like, who the fuck do you think you are? You know, have you even you know left the wire? This guy's just been blown up. Who are you to tell him? He's like, Well, he's he can't have a beard, and so my CSM's yelling at this major, it's great, and I'll mate end up backing down. But I was like, this is why I hate this barrack shit. You're worried about my beard in Afghanistan. Is that what we're worried about? You're not worried about are we combat effective? Not worried about do we have the kit to do our job? You're not worried about do we have a resupply structure, you're worried about if I have a beard, yeah, too many majors, and he had a sidearm. So my gunner or gunners in Alpha Company uh couldn't get sidearms because this guy has one, because he needed to walk around the base like a kid in me, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:43:18

Like or and I was getting angry of just being here, and then um Which culturally as well within that community, it's good to have a beard out in the bush.

SPEAKER_04 1:43:26

Oh, yeah, out of the field because that's their culture, culturally good, but also um sanitary because in the dirt, like it's crazy, and then uh yeah, so I got and then I had um Darren Murch come see me at RSM and he goes, You you need to be at this location in an hour or so. And I was like, okay, I rock up to you know, I walk into this room, and it's the commander of uh Urruzgahn, which is still a Dutch guy, and he's in there, and he presents me with uh uh a Dutch um commendation and a certificate and like a coin and a ribbon thing, and and uh yeah, for for being blown up. And I was like, okay. Thank you. Sure. And um, I didn't really understand why I was getting all this stuff, and then they all started giving me coins and you know, little gifts and all sorts of things, and I I didn't I was like, oh why do I why do you get gifts if you know in my mind? I'm like, where do you want me to put it in my bag? Like I'm about to go back and get in get in gunfires like what are we doing here? And uh yes, I was getting all this and in hindsight, they all knew I was leaving. So they all knew that I wasn't no idea. No one's gonna keep just a digger, dude. Like, I'm like, they're gonna look at my ear and be like, Yeah, yeah, shit. Pretty much and they no one told me I wasn't coming back either, which was the worst. And um, so the Dutch guy was super excited about the the person that I shot and wanted to get into the details. He had an SKS on his wall um from what he was presented from, you know, what one of their Dutch guys, what they did, and yeah, he was just super excited and I was like, Oh yeah, and he goes, Oh um, I wish you well, and I said, I'll see you again. So, and then I left and jumped on a uh uh a plane with a bunch of wounded commandos and wounded SAS guys, uh, had a a nurse and a medic travelling with me and a doctor was on there because these guys are all strapped in. And um, I remember shaking hands with one of the the shooters who had all of his name, all his mates' names tattoo on him, uh, who have been killed. And he was like, Yeah, he's in it. I was like, Yeah. Then we get back. They but if you've ever been to to the UAE with with those guys, they get looked after really well. We get looked after not too well. So they get picked up by their own teams, and uh, I got picked up by uh a doctor and who was running the base. I was the first infantry soldier to go to the base.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:54

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:55

So I get there and I trade some numbers with some some of the guys and uh we walk in and he's like, All right, check in the hospital. I was like, yeah, and I was like, now what? And he goes, check into the hospital. I wasn't they weren't very accommodating and uh smelly grunt and with all these, you know, people. And uh yeah, I was like, okay. Um and then in my mind, I was like, yeah, I've had enough. Called the SF guys, got picked up, went out to the pub, came back a day later, uh, got screamed at, they threatened to charge me. They're like, we are charging you, you're a you're a disgrace, all this really into me. And I I remembered one thing that I was taught, you if you don't get uh a base brief of what you can and can't do, you can do whatever you want. And so I called Doc Challen, who was the doctor back in um uh in Kabul, no, sorry, in in Tarrank out, and told him, and I said, I haven't been given a brief. And then he's like, Oh, well, if you haven't briefed him, he can you can't get angry at him. And so yeah, they put me on a plane home the next day. They're like, Yeah, they're like, get out, you they're furious because they just lost this wounded soldier who was just missing in Dubai at the pub causing trouble, and yeah, and they're like, You need to get out of here. And I was like, Oh, okay, when what time do I go back to TK? He's like, You're not going back to TK, my man, you're going home. And then a a doctor and a nurse picked me up and I was on a corner slot. Yeah. What a way to treat a wounded soldier.

SPEAKER_05 1:47:24

Oh, they didn't care. I know, but the this they didn't care. Let's keep the politics out of it. All right. Well, you get back to Australia, mate. You've your your deployment's been cut short. What is it? Uh that's in October. When's everyone getting back anyway?

SPEAKER_04 1:47:40

Um, so I did they're doing nine months, so it's three months behind me, or three months after.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:44

Oh, three months.

SPEAKER_04 1:47:45

So you're back in the in the battalion, mate. A bit of a Well, I'm back in the hospital. So they check me into the hospital. Well, we we land in Soundsville. Yeah, so we land Sydney first, and we get off and they take me into the Quantas Lounge, and they're like, All right, um, we're we're here for two hours, we're gonna go. And I said, Oh, I'm gonna have a beer. And they said, You're not allowed to drink. And I was like, Why? And they said, Oh, well, you're under medical supervision. I was like, Okay, I'm gonna drink and I'm gonna have a beer. That's what's happening. And this poor nurse, this doctor's already given up, so he's already taken off. And the nurse's like, I can't let you. And I said, Well, you need to go for a walk, man, because I want a beer. You've just I've just been sent home. This is what I've been doing. I I wasn't I wasn't sitting there twilling my thumbs. This is what I've been in the shit the whole time. And it's been sucked, and it lost mates, people have been wounded, and people been injured, uh, myself included. I'm gonna have a beer. And he just went for a walk, came back two hours later. I think I tried to belt feed a bunch of beers in my head, and I got to uh I think I only had like two, and then uh yeah, flew back to Townsville. They put me in the hospital, and uh I was there until I was rescued uh about a week later.

SPEAKER_05 1:48:58

Um yeah. Have you got somewhere to be, I mean? I've got question time so what time's that? At two. How long's that for? Uh to about three. We got an idea. What are we gonna do?

SPEAKER_02 1:49:12

We've got to quickly work out in the politics.

SPEAKER_04 1:49:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:49:16

Yeah, I I can go down, you know, ten minutes late, I reckon.

SPEAKER_04 1:49:20

Okay, all right. Because we was eleven till one, wasn't it? Yeah, I know we blew out. We blew out.

SPEAKER_05 1:49:28

Well maybe there's just gonna be have to be a part two.

SPEAKER_04 1:49:32

I can do a I can do a um a part two and I can come into to New E after or midway through the winter break if you want. Do a part two.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:43

Yeah. Alright. Let's Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:49:45

Yeah, yeah. So let's do it. Let's do that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:49:48

Yeah, yeah, because then uh alright. Well just for listener Yeah, we'll do a part two, I suppose. Yeah, we'll talk about the politics and 'cause that's probably another hour and a half. 100% it is, yeah. I want to deep dive into that, moving into politics world. So otherwise, yeah. I don't know, we'll probably figure out when you're back down here next, and I'll probably shoot down anyway. I want to go see the warm war again.

SPEAKER_04 1:50:07

Okay, well let's work that out. I'm um I'm here I'm obviously here next week, and then I'm away for uh I think we'll wait for three, but I can I've got travel that I need to do.

SPEAKER_05 1:50:17

Oh, it's you're coming up on Friday.

SPEAKER_01 1:50:18

Yeah, actually I can do that. I'll come yeah, Friday to to what's to singer, right? Isn't it singer? Singer, yeah. Well if you'll come up then let's I already told them and do that. Yeah. Yeah, okay, done. Right. We'll leave it then. Done. All right.