Ep. 257 Ben Radcliffe NSW Police

SPEAKER_00 1:36

It's time for the Zero Limits podcast, hosted by Australian veterans. Chatting with high-charging humans with hectic stories from around the world, we'll give you the motivation to take on whatever life throws at you in the kick to complete any goal you set your mind to. Let's go.

SPEAKER_04 2:14

His name is Ben Benny Radcliffe. He's been mentioned a few times without his name in a couple of other podcasts. Brett Pennell back in the day. And Mitch Ashworth, the canine healer. I forgot what episode numbers they were, but type those into Spotify. You can get back and have a listen to those podcast episodes, which will talk about those the connection with those boys soon. As I said, 17 years in the New South Wales police, absolute extensive career within the New South Wales police as a GD officer. Now I've known this guy a long time. I moved to Newcastle in 2009, and that's when I first met him. I was bouncing at the Queen's Wharf Brewing. Back then it used to be a lot of there used to be a lot of fights, a lot of trouble. Modern day times have changed. There was a lot more, obviously, bikeys and everything, and we used to just punch on every single weekend. Always the cops will always be there. I met Ben and he was one of the only cops who would ever come and help us. Every time he turned up, he'd like, You got any problem, boys? Like, oh yeah, uh, you know, oh mate, there's just been an idiot. Can you get rid of him? Bang, 550 on the spot, send him on his way. So he really, really helped us out a lot. And I guess for the cops out there listening, you know, like just help the guys out in the doors because they're dealing with drunk, intoxicated losers on the you know, on the doors every night. And it, you know, Ben's help, especially over the years. Uh while I was a cop, you know, we ran into each other uh while I was working, and uh, but anyway, enough about me.

SPEAKER_11 3:41

But yeah, well, that's good.

SPEAKER_04 3:43

How are you? Yeah, appreciate it, mate. Appreciate you coming in.

SPEAKER_11 3:45

Yeah, thank thanks for having me on. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:47

Yeah, like I said, mate, we go back.

SPEAKER_02 3:50

Yeah, and also you're like one of the only ones that would talk to us as well. So that's how we sort of got on, I guess.

SPEAKER_04 3:55

Well, that's that's what you got to do, isn't it? Like keep you know, we're we're we're the eyes and ears for you guys. Have we said, you know, generally most of the stuff happened was at the pubs and clubs. You're like, oh, have you seen this guy? I'm like, Oh fuck, he was just here after he said he was going to the the prints or what you know, whatever. So mate, and yeah, the amount of times you'd come in and just I'd be like, you'd be like, Oh mate, you got any problems? Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh mate, just been an absolute dickhead. Can you get rid of him?

SPEAKER_02 4:18

And we'd also see each other regularly on my days off.

SPEAKER_04 4:20

Yeah, well, it's yeah, yeah, but you you says here you loved a beer.

SPEAKER_11 4:25

I did, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:26

I think for the people listening that know you, they'll probably uh understand that, but there's a few times uh you you come to the to the pub on your days off, uh bit sideways.

SPEAKER_11 4:37

Yeah, uh a little bit. Just a card.

SPEAKER_04 4:39

You know, we we'll talk about it again down the track because you know a lot of it was contributed from your life as a police officer because you've sent through your bio. And it's one of those uh for you, it's a standard GD career, but then I read these stories, I'm like, man, what like there's one here, you know, you you talk about walking down the train tracks down at Hamilton and you find a leg.

SPEAKER_11 5:01

Yeah, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 5:02

Like that's that's for for a no for a normal human being like me, like I consider myself normal, yeah. Outside of you know the military, that's not normal. Yeah, you think it's normal.

SPEAKER_02 5:13

But then and then also like sit sitting there and trying to come up with things to talk about. I'm like, you've done I've done like hundreds of or thousands of jobs trying to think about what stands out, and like you can't even really remember because you do so many. Yeah, and then you might just be driving down the street one day and just be like, oh yeah, I I remember that now. Like, and you know, I've written out this this uh bio thing, and I've just sort of come up with what I can remember, but there's so many more that are that we're involved in that you can't just sort of think of on the spot.

SPEAKER_04 5:47

And and we'll go through most of these because they're pretty, pretty again, like if for a GD officer, normal, for everyone else, not normal, but it also highlights what's happening, you know. Yeah, and it's only getting worse for the poor old GD officer, they're dealing with a lot more.

SPEAKER_11 6:02

Like I'm sure you would have seen it because they're out of the pump hard. When did you get out? When Dale. Uh 20 early 2024.

SPEAKER_04 6:09

Yeah, yeah. So you would have seen the the changes over 17 years within your policing career just here in Newcastle, too. Yeah. Newcastle and uh Warrata.

SPEAKER_11 6:18

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 6:19

Mate, before we do, like I spoke about before, you've had a couple of, you know, had former guys on the podcast, Brett Pennell, uh, Mitch Ashworth for one. He quickly spoke about a story on his podcast that he got a little bit wrong, but you were there.

SPEAKER_02 6:35

Yeah, that's right, I was there. I actually told him to tell that story because I find it I find it crazy, like some of the stuff that dogs do.

SPEAKER_01 6:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:43

And like his dog would always sort of remember me, so it would like always be like nice and chill around me. Uh, because I've been around to his house before and that. But this one job was like it was something like there was a train from Sydney or or coming to Broadmeadow, someone got robbed on a train. Um, anyway, the offenders were like still on the train, so we went to Broadmeadow, waited for the train, and he turned up with a dog. I can't remember its name now. Sorry, Ashi, but um Cujo. Cujo, okay, there you go.

SPEAKER_04 7:19

No, I don't think it was, I'm just making that up.

SPEAKER_02 7:22

I don't think it was Cujo. He's gonna get offended over that. Oh well. But when the train stopped, like there were there was a decent amount of people in the train, there would have been like 50 people in the train, and they've all got off on the platform, and we're all standing there with his dog, and his dog's just beelined it through the crowd and just started barking in this guy's face, and like Ashy didn't pick it up to begin with, and then he realized, oh shit, like I arrested this guy last night. So, like the night before, or two nights before, whatever it was, um he was up. This guy was up Nelson Bay breaking or Anna Bay or something like that, breaking into a heap of houses, and Ashy like tracked him through all these yards and over these fences, and then I don't know if he told the full story, but he he found him asleep in someone's like Airbnb or something, just pretending he was like living there, something like that. He found him asleep on the lounge and arrested him, and this guy went to jail but got bail the next morning. He didn't know he got bail because he's gone back down the newy. So yeah, his dogs like picked up his scent or recognized him straight away and just beelimed straight to him and was just like barking in his face. I thought it was crazy. I was like, how the how does this dog like pick him up that quick? Yeah, it's insane.

SPEAKER_01 8:45

Arrest him.

SPEAKER_02 8:47

I don't know if we had enough evidence at the time to arrest him for anything. Yeah, I can't remember. I don't I don't think we arrested him. I think it was like one of the like the victims might have left or something happened and we didn't have yeah. But yeah, I thought it, yeah, I thought that was like super crazy how his dog just picked him up.

SPEAKER_04 9:04

Yeah, that that is pretty cool. But but that's the that's the power of those dogs, but they they just remember everything. Like they smell, it's that smell.

SPEAKER_02 9:11

Like the mare's dog, you know the mare, Manchu. I'll quickly go into this before we kick on, but I had this one thing, one job where it was like a break and then it's just happened, right? So we've rolled in and we're playing clothes, and everyone in the house is like, he's running over the through the back, he's running through the back, jumped over the back fence. So I've just ran through the house, over the back fence. I didn't realise that he's the mare's pulled up behind me with his dog, he's gone through the house, I didn't know he was there, and I'm jumped over the fence, and uh he's let the dog go. Dog's tracking me, and I wasn't in uniform, so the dog's jumped over the fence, starts coming after me. So I've climbed on top of a van and I'm on the roof of a van, come over the dog, and he he comes over the fence, and I'm like, get your fucking dog away from me, and he's like, You shouldn't be here, like you should have waited for me, and all this kind of stuff. And but from that moment on, Manchu hated me for his whole career, and every time he saw me, he wanted to kill me. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_04 10:25

So for the listener out there, you might have heard about the the mayor of Newcastle, not the actual mayor, yeah. Not the real mayor. He calls himself the mayor of Newcastle. Shout out to him, mate. Shout out to him, absolutely. I saw him the other day, actually.

SPEAKER_02 10:36

I was I said to him, I'm probably gonna tell that story where your dog wanted to eat me.

SPEAKER_04 10:42

Mate, uh, just quickly before we start on to your life and career, what you're doing now, you're you've been traveling around the world, like all these, and you you've got an Instagram channel, uh page uh Aussie Peak Explorer.

SPEAKER_02 10:55

Yep, Aussie Peak Explorer.

SPEAKER_04 10:56

And just quickly talk about this. Like like I've said every time I see photos, you're just on some feature somewhere in the remote parts of the world.

SPEAKER_02 11:05

So I'll go into it a bit deeper later, but um I've got like a chronic pain thing going on, but uh many years ago my friend took me up a mountain. Uh what I sort of realized was like when I do intense exercise, I'm not in pain. And I was doing like crossfit and stuff, but I kept getting injured. And then when she took me up this mountain, I was super fit at the time, and I was like, um that was so hard. It was like six or eight hours or something crazy. I was like, well, that's six hours where I'm not in pain, you know. So I was like, I need to start doing this. So, like when I left the police, and massive for my mental health, like it's a it's a big thing for my mental health. So when I left the police, I decided uh I was cooking it for a for a while, but um to try and climb the tallest mountain of every country in Europe. It's called like the crown of Europe, is what it's called, the challenge. Um, so I started with that, and uh originally I was going to try and break the uh Guinness World Record for the fastest known time. Um and I was kind of planning it leading up to the Ukraine war, and then the Ukraine war kicked off, and then so I sort of put it on the back burner until that settled down, but it hasn't settled down. So I started with that, I pretty much finished that other than Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus, and then I've decided just to kick on with it, and at the moment I'm trying to get to the tallest of 100 countries, and then I'm also doing um there's a challenge called the Seven Volcanic Summits, which is the tallest volcano volcano of every continent, and I'm on the fence about doing the the seven summits, which is the tallest mountain of every continent, but that that includes Everest, so I'm just trying to toss up at the moment whether I'm gonna take that plunge or not. Fucking but I've just I'm doing that at the moment, traveling around, and it's just good for my mental health, really, and my physical health as well, you know. Bit of a challenge for myself.

SPEAKER_04 13:27

Haven't you watched any of those YouTube videos climbing those volcanoes and they erupt? Like, fuck yeah, like it literally happened like six months ago.

SPEAKER_02 13:34

I know, but they're all active volcanoes. Like I've been yeah, it's fine.

SPEAKER_04 13:40

It's it's not like I see it all the time. Like, and I think when I see those videos on TikTok or Instagram, I'm like, you idiots, like it's a fucking volcano, regardless if it's not if it's dormant or what like it can just blow up whenever it wants.

SPEAKER_03 13:52

I know. I'm more scared of avalanches and yeah, yeah, and bears. Um yeah, fair but yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:59

Yeah, because they had that avalanche not long ago, that uh that Sherber that was that SNS guy that's at NIMS, yeah, yeah. And they've had a couple that seven or eight killed, I think, in that too.

SPEAKER_02 14:09

Yeah, and they've had a couple in this week in Nepal where they've closed one of the mountains.

SPEAKER_04 14:14

Wasn't that mad that uh that Nepal bloody inland tidal wave? Like that was madness. Yeah, that was crazy. That was crazy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:23

That's and that was all started from a glacier or from a yeah, so part of the glacier fell into the lake and then the lakes collapsed.

SPEAKER_04 14:31

Madness. That was yeah, that was wild. Yeah. Yeah, right. So and um well no, we'll we'll talk about that right at the end there, because I I find it pretty interesting that you've and had like just quickly, how many peaks do you reckon you've done so far?

SPEAKER_02 14:43

Um I've done 61 countries, but uh out of the 61 I've done, like there's a few in there that may change. There's like I won't go into the politics of it, but there's some that may not be official countries or so. I may have only done like 58 or 57. Yeah. In the end, we get to 100, I'll revisit and go, oh, what else do I need to do? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:07

They're all pretty much states of the United States, really. Yeah, yeah. It's the Lake of America. It was the the Gulf of America, isn't it? What he wants to call it now.

SPEAKER_02 15:16

Yeah. I love it. There's a new South Park season out now, too, called South America.

SPEAKER_04 15:22

Mate, let's get back to those younger days growing up, born and bred here in Newcastle. Oh, there you go. Yeah. Mate, run me through run me through those younger days. Obviously, Toronto too. Yeah, I think that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 15:37

I sort of, I think first couple of years I was at Nelson Bay, I think parents were living, and then um moved down to Rath Mines when I was probably a few years old. Um, mum's from like Blackhalls, the old boys from um Canberra. Um, but yeah, pretty much grew up in Rath Mines.

SPEAKER_04 15:58

Yep. Schooling in uh Toronto High.

SPEAKER_02 16:01

Yeah, that was there. Actually, I know uh you had courting on here, didn't you? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:07

Shane.

SPEAKER_02 16:07

Yeah, I I lived not too far from him, yeah. Um, yeah, so Rath Mines and then Toronto High.

SPEAKER_04 16:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah. How'd you go to school?

SPEAKER_02 16:17

Uh average. I got an average, I think I got a flat 50% on my UAI. Yeah, right. But it was like, you know, I was reasonably smart, just didn't apply myself.

SPEAKER_04 16:30

Yeah, yeah. Um brothers, sisters?

SPEAKER_02 16:34

Yeah, I got two sisters. I'm in the middle.

SPEAKER_04 16:36

Yeah. And y you've noted down here, there's just a you know, a quick side story here. There was a significant i incident when you were, you know, four or five years old with you with your one of your sisters.

SPEAKER_02 16:47

Yeah, so I think it was my older sister's sixth birthday. I think that's when it was. Um, so I was like four and a half or something like that. Um, and we're at my grandma's at Blackell's Park. And my sister had just been born, my other sister, like so. My younger sister was just a baby, like newborn. And so I think we were there. So she was born in February, this would have been like July. Um, so we're at my grandparents, I think a lot of people were there for my sister's birthday, and then to meet my new sister. Um I think my cousin was there as well. Like um they told my mum that we're riding out up and down the driveway and asked if we could go to the park, and mum's like, no, you can't go to the park. But we went to the park anyway, and so we went down, and I don't know if you remember, but there used to be like these wooden teepees in parks, and like you climb up the teepee, there'd be like a pole down the middle, and you'd slide down the pole. They're like made of like timber or something. Anyway, so we obviously went down to the park. I don't remember too much because I was pretty young, but in the beginning, but I remember what happened after. But so my sisters were all wearing I think I might have been on foot actually, they were on their bikes and wearing these old school like bike helmets or like big square looking things.

SPEAKER_01 18:22

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:23

Um and she's gone to slide down, and the helmets got wedged in the top, and then it's effectively hung her from the top of this teepee, and she's like lost consciousness, uh, brown bread essentially. Um and I don't actually remember that per se, but I remember then I've legged it to these guys nearby, I think they're like 16 or 17 years old, asking for help, and so then two of them are gone to help my sister, and then the other one is like chucked me on his back, and we've run back to my grandparents' house, and I remember walking in. I don't know, this is just like if it's from my memory or from the stories I've been told, but I I feel like I remember it. But going in and telling my mum that my sister was dead, and then so everyone's like lost their shit and ran down to the park. But essentially that's what happened. The guys have just got to her in time, she was fully lost consciousness and like uh wet her pants and everything, and mum and mum and my granddad got down there first. Um and then they're like, Oh, she's alive, she's alive, and then um anyway it wasn't part of this story, but mum tells a story that like they got in the ambo and the ambo was gonna light lights and side to the hospital and my dad went screaming bass and like locked on the brakes and was like that's my daughter, that's my daughter. Um anyway. Um getting a brave reward for that and then all the guys involved got a brave reward. Um yeah. It was like one of my earliest memories, I think. Yeah, fuck mate. Pretty full on. Yeah, and like I didn't really think too much about it, but we didn't really talk about it too much growing up. But with all the work stuff I've been through, I really always reacted bad to hangings. And uh I reckon that has something to do with it.

SPEAKER_04 20:41

100% it does. Yeah, 100%. And again, like in your policing career, you probably fuck mate, you're I'm sure you're exposed to plenty of uh suicides and hangings.

SPEAKER_02 20:51

Yeah, heaps of suicides and um like a lot of hangings, but I always found hangings like really difficult and I didn't really um put the link there because I didn't really ever think about that because we didn't talk about too much, but then when I talk about it, I get upset. Um but it wasn't until I started getting like psych treatment and stuff, like she was like, Well, obviously this is significant, like you know, so it makes sense, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:21

100% mate, like especially because you're such a young age too, but it's such a vivid memory for you, which is pretty again pretty wild for for that age group, you know. Yeah, I thought shit from that age group.

SPEAKER_02 21:31

I even remember like the the colour helmet and stuff she was wearing, like which is weird, like yeah, yeah, that's that's trauma, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:38

That's what trauma does. It etches it into your brain. Uh yeah, right. Fuck mate. Um obviously sisters are all good now.

SPEAKER_02 21:46

Yeah, sisters all good. Yeah, just a memory.

SPEAKER_04 21:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:50

Linked us forever, I guess. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:52

Yeah. Are they are they here in Newcastle?

SPEAKER_02 21:54

Uh they're both down in Sydney. Oh, yeah, yeah. Just the perfect distance away.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:01

Yeah. I have to visit them every day.

SPEAKER_04 22:06

Uh yeah, right, mate. So obviously you you you've gone through this. We were speaking about your schooling side of things, struggled at school. Um, you know, I assuming you you you're the only boy in the family, too. So that's always a harder thing. You know, the two sisters they stick together.

SPEAKER_11 22:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:22

You've got to go out and find all your friends. The problem with schooling at Toronto was back then it was probably still is.

SPEAKER_02 22:29

Oh it's not a I would imagine it still is. It is, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:33

I was living there for a couple of years. Yeah, it's still pretty uh pretty rough out there. Pretty rough.

SPEAKER_02 22:39

Yeah, it's like a combination. I was like, you know, a bit of a bit rough, but then also good as well. Yeah. Once you get through I think like once it was like through nine year nine and ten, like then it's just like everyone sort of leaves, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:55

Family history within defense or policing or anything?

SPEAKER_02 22:59

Yeah, so um my dad was in the Royal Engineers. Um I couldn't tell you how many years, but that was like sort of before I was born. I think he left around the time I was born. Um, and then my granddad, so like my mum's dad, was actually it's a pretty good story about him joining. Um he was. In the merchant navy, and then he went to the Air Force after that. Um, so he joined World War II. Um, and then I'm not too sure about dad's side. I think like maybe his granddad was like or great granddad was in World War I, but I'm not I don't know the full story about that. But my granddad was living here in Newcastle um when the submarines attacked.

SPEAKER_01 23:50

Oh shit.

SPEAKER_02 23:51

Yeah, and so he was like 16 or something, and he was like running around, running amok out in the streets around Cook's Hill or something like that, and the submarines attacked. And um I think it was like early morning, like two or three in the morning. And I I don't know the full story, but I think he went running up there or something like that, and then um anyway, he was in Newcastle when it happened, and then got called back home, and um essentially that's what made him go to war, and he from memory he like falsified his birth certificate and joined the war when he was like 17, and then he went to the merchant navy. Um I don't know too much about where he served exactly or what he did, um, but after a few years then he went to the Air Force. I think he was merchant navy until maybe the war finished, and then he went to the Air Force for a few years. Yeah, mate, and then he worked on like the boats after that for a long time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:57

Fucking different times, isn't it? Where you gotta lie. People lie to go to war.

SPEAKER_02 25:01

Yeah. And look, I've looked at his um I've looked up his like war records and stuff like that, and I could find all his Air Force stuff, but I couldn't find his Navy stuff. There was a note on the Air Force one that says he says he was in the merchant navy, but we can't find records of this or something like that. And I I'm pretty sure because he changed his date of birth, I'm assuming, and probably his name as well. I don't know the full story, but yeah, crazy.

SPEAKER_04 25:30

A lot of them did that. It's funny you say that because my my grand my grandfather, my dad's side, did the same thing, but he's changed he changed his last name, his date of birth, everything. Yeah. So we can't find his military records, but we we knew he served, but we can't find any records because they think that possibly uh he obviously came from England that he was a criminal and wanted to change everything and start a new life. So you know, apparently my last name's not meant to be Morris either.

SPEAKER_11 25:55

Yeah, well there you are, which is uh pretty crazy.

SPEAKER_04 25:57

But again, that's such a typical thing back then. That's what they did. They changed because you could, which will be great these days. I'd love to just change everything.

SPEAKER_02 26:05

That's crazy to think though, like you know, you're 16 or 17 just running around on the beers of your mates, and then like the submarines attack Newcastle, and then you're just like, ah, screw this, I'm going to war. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 26:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 26:20

16-year-old boys these days don't know what gender they have.

SPEAKER_02 26:22

Yeah. Well, they're out stealing cars, I know that.

SPEAKER_04 26:27

Yeah, we'll talk about that soon, mate. So you obviously you start finishing school what year did you finish school? Uh 2005. So 2005, you joined the police 2006. Where does this conception come into your into your mind?

SPEAKER_02 26:42

Um to be honest, I could have screwed up my HSC. Uh I had like a vague idea I was going to become an engineer or something. So I'm I got into like I was I think that they call it New Step back then, it's like open foundation kind of thing. So I was doing that at like my year 12 again at uni, and I just hated it. And then I didn't want to be there. And I think my dad was just like you're not leaving until you get a job, and so I just applied for everything. I never really had like in my head I wanted to be a cop, like yeah, I just applied for heaps of stuff. Like I had more in my head I would be a b become a fiery, and I think that's why I applied for the police because I applied for the fieries and I applied for a police at the same time. I just applied for all these different jobs just so I could quit uni. And then the police got back to me like straight away, and I was like, alright. So I just decided I'm just gonna do it, and then it was like I was in Ashworth's class, actually, it was like a real big class before an election or something. So they're like pushing to get heaps of people. So they basically rang me and said, I must have did like a phone interview, and it was basically like, Yeah, get all your stuff together, you're basically you're in, you're going in June. You'll just do your physical before you come down, where usually you gotta do it first. And I was then I was on. Like, I think that was like March or April, and then I was like, Okay, I'm going down in June. So it just all just happened, and then before I knew it, I was at Waratar Police Station. I was like, just turned 19 and I was at Waratar Police Station.

SPEAKER_04 28:25

So yeah, 18-year-old when you go to the academy, how'd you how'd you find that academy life?

SPEAKER_02 28:31

Uh I hated it.

SPEAKER_04 28:32

Yeah, yeah. The educational side, because it's very that and just I'd never been anywhere so cold in my life.

SPEAKER_02 28:41

Yeah, you know, I went down in winter. I'd never really been in the snow before. Like my first day there was minus seven, and I'm living in a dorm in the dorms. Actually, no, I was living in the in the um the army barracks for the first three months. Just a bunch of people in uh I was like 18, you know, everyone else is like older. And um I had a few mates down there, which is alright, but like we'd spend every Thursday on the beers, and then I'd drive back Friday, catch up with the boys back here, and I'd go out all weekend and then I'd drive back again. So I just like I hated it down there because originally I had like a bit of a farewell. I wasn't planning on coming back while I was down there, but uh after like two or three weeks, I was just like, nah, I'm coming back every weekend.

SPEAKER_04 29:28

Yeah. What about the policing, the the actual policing side, the firearms and yeah, like I liked all that bit of physical, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:35

It's just like Gulbin itself, didn't love it.

SPEAKER_04 29:38

Yeah, yeah. Gave you the BTSD, yeah, just Gulbon.

SPEAKER_02 29:43

Yeah, basically, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:44

How long was uh the academy?

SPEAKER_02 29:46

Um, so I started in June and I ended in 35th January, so like seven months. Yeah. We had a few weeks off over Christmas from memory, but it was full on, like they were trying to push a lot in, and I remember the second, like it split into two, but the second session, like we'll start at 6 a.m. on the parade ground, and I was getting home at 9 30 some nights. Shit. Yeah, just depends on whet what your class, how it was built up, like what rotation you're in. But I was in the afternoon rotation as well, so you'd have to get up and go to parade, and then maybe I'd have a bit of a breather. But then I was there 9 30 some nights, I was getting back, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:35

And sorry, just quickly on that, just to cut in when you obviously when you get to uh Warrata, get your posting. Do you feel like you're ready as a police officer to hit the streets? No way, that's crazy, isn't it? Because you know, we we talk about this. Um, you know, I think Ashworth spoke about it. It it was the biggest class, but it was all a political play for the government because so obviously, like you said, they were jamming in all that work within one day type thing and pushing you guys to the limits just so they could make a political fucking move.

SPEAKER_02 31:05

Yeah, so I probably gave you bumps to you there. Like, yeah, as a policeman, yeah, I had all the tools necessary, but I was super young, man. Like I was like But that's what I mean as well.

SPEAKER_04 31:15

Like they're just they you know, there was a thousand people in your class, so they're just like, oh fuck, we'll just take just turn eighteen, it's perfect.

SPEAKER_02 31:21

Well, we started off with a thousand, but I think by the end of like we'd have born about eight hundred or still like seven hundred and still a lot of people. Yeah, it's a lot of people.

SPEAKER_04 31:29

Uh a lot of people, and you you know, out of those numbers it's probably a solid 50.

SPEAKER_02 31:34

Yeah. Oh yeah. Well, I wasn't very solid. I was like only 18. I was like, you know.

SPEAKER_04 31:39

But again, that's what I mean. Like it's the it was that political play back then, and yeah, I think they've just done it recently. Where they've just I think we've had to do it recently, yeah. Which again, yeah. Now we're looking it was a political play. Yeah. And I've spoken to actually I spoke about it on a on a podcast recently, and I had to have some police officers reach out and say, Oh, yeah, we've received a couple of those uh those rookie cops that have turned up police stations and they're absolute dumb shits. Yeah. They're just they're they're stupid.

SPEAKER_02 32:06

Yeah, well you don't know who you're gonna get, really.

SPEAKER_04 32:08

Well that's it. But anyway, side story there.

SPEAKER_02 32:10

But like do they bring in like I don't know, you'd probably know more because I haven't really been following, but are that talk talks of bringing in cadet chip and stuff?

SPEAKER_04 32:18

Yeah, yeah, I think because I don't really agree with that. Yeah, I I don't know. I I did have uh they do it in Western Australia.

SPEAKER_11 32:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:26

And I I guess it's just like the cadets for the army and stuff. You know, I guess you get to dip your feet in and see what the world's like, and if you like it, then you can continue on. I think I think yeah, I don't know, I don't know how it's gonna probably New South Wales they'll fuck it up. Yeah, there's no doubt about it.

SPEAKER_02 32:42

It's one of those things it goes both ways, like um yeah, I was probably too young to join and stuff. I think Fassi might have gone into this too. But at the same time, it's probably why I was as good as I was at certain things. Because you're a blank canvas. Because I joined when I was young, you know.

SPEAKER_04 33:01

Yeah, and a blank canvas. Yeah, like you said, it is a twofold thing. Yeah, can be a blank canvas, but fuck man, there's some 18-year-old kids out there that forget to breathe sometime, I think. Yeah. These days too. Jesus. Uh yeah, right. So during your time at the academy, did you do any uh postings, you know, you know, where you do the No that was the thing with our class, they didn't do that um because they didn't have time.

SPEAKER_02 33:25

They wanted to rush us all through. So we didn't have the the spow or whatever where you go out and do a week or two on the truck. We just the my first experience in the police was in the police. In the police, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:38

At Warrior.

SPEAKER_02 33:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:40

Straight in the thick of it. Yeah, right. So from there, um do you do you get some preferences where you want to go?

SPEAKER_02 33:45

Yeah, you've I think you got two. I think it was something like one or two um outside of Sydney, then the rest had to be basically Sydney or or out west. Um and I put in for I never I didn't put in for Newcastle and Waratar when it joined back then. I put him for Waratar, I didn't put him for Newy because I was like, I go out all the time. Didn't expect to be going around all the nightclubs. I didn't put him for for the Lake Macquarie because I was um from out at the lake. Yeah, I think I put him for Hornsby and then three from the city or something like that, and then um and then I got Warata.

SPEAKER_04 34:26

Yeah, pretty lucky, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 34:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 34:28

Uh you said Ashworth was in your class, he obviously gets posted up here as well. Yep. Yeah, yeah, he's a few years maybe two years older than me, or something like that. Yeah, yeah. Um well yeah, I guess talked me through that first week rocking up to Waratar as a young 18-year-old with a pistol on your hip, ready to roll.

SPEAKER_02 34:46

It's pretty funny, actually. Uh I wouldn't call it hazing, but yeah, I think Ashie called it hazing. But my first FTO um just liked to play tricks on me constantly. Actually, my whole team. Because I went I I probably went to one of the better teams at Warata. We had like a good mixture of like really senior guys and then like like senior guys, but also like junior enough and proactive as well. So it was like a really good mixture, and everyone was a bit of a misfit, like everyone had a good dark personality and stuff like that. So they'd always just torment me, you know. I remember the first day, and he if he listens to this, he's gonna disagree with this, but like he was like testing me, right? So he'd just be a bit of a dick to me, like just to see where I was at, like trying to gauge me. And anyway, we went out for a drive and then we went to get smoothies. I had no cash, like nothing in my bank account, like 45 cents or something, you know. And we went and got like um like uh Slurpees for a dollar, and he's like pulls off his thing, he's like, Oh, I want a free Slurpee. And then he's like, You're not getting it though. I was like, oh. And then the other guy we're working with was like, nah, just give it to him, give it to him. So he got me a free Slurpee, and then we got in the back of the car, and as soon as I've gone to take a sip of it, he's just punched it over a speed hump. I've spilt the Slurpee all through the car, all through the back of the car, just everywhere. And he's like, Oh, well, you're gonna have to spend the next two hours cleaning out the car. So I spent they just went and did their thing for half the day, and I was out the back cleaning the car.

SPEAKER_01 36:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:33

And I swear it was deliberate, but he he he won't say that, he reckons it's an accident, but yeah, he deliberately did it.

SPEAKER_04 36:38

Oh yeah, that stuff's good though.

SPEAKER_02 36:40

Yeah, and then he did like he took me out, he goes, All right, um, every new person that comes to this team as like an initiation, um, you got you know Sandgate Cemetery, yeah, like a massive cemetery, you gotta go out there at midnight and you've got to walk out, walk through the cemetery. I was like, Yeah, right, it's easy. Let's go. And then so he's driven me out there. As I go to leave, he's like, Give me your torch, give me a radio, and then um, so I've given him that, and then the other guy was like, nah, nah, you need to give him a radio in case something happens. So I was like, Oh right, I hear you go. And he gave me the radio back with no battery in it, and he's like, off you go. I walked through the cemetery, and they're waiting for me at the other side. I get the car, and he's like, There's no fucking way I would ever do that. And they had me going for like 18 months. Yeah, so every new person I was like, Yeah, we've got to go to out the cemetery, but it was just for me, and I didn't realise they just had me going the whole time. Um, but yeah, that was it, and then also my first day, I think like almost had to spray a guy because we got him on a stolen pushy and he wanted to fight us, and then some guy got stabbed in the leg. I think he stabbed himself in the leg actually, so it was like a good like lights and sirens run to that. So it was a good eye-opener with that, and then um end of the day with like getting an arrest or something like at like 5 30 in the afternoon and work back to like 6 30. It was like my first day, and I was like, Oh yeah, this is sick.

SPEAKER_04 38:27

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:28

I loved it, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:29

Yeah, yeah, that would have been uh yeah, that's that's wild first day, and all that stuff, obviously, red and blues screaming through the traffic as well. Yeah, and for a young guy, I'd be like, fuck, this is yeah, it's me.

SPEAKER_02 38:41

And like I was just like good. I had my FTAs were all pretty proactive as well. Like, so I was always out getting amongst it kind of thing. Yeah. Um, so that was pretty good.

SPEAKER_04 38:57

Um I was still just laughing about the cemetery.

SPEAKER_11 39:01

Oh, yeah. That's awesome. I love that stuff. He always brings that up too.

SPEAKER_02 39:05

Even when I when I uh left work, he commented on me little retirement post thing. He's like, I always remember that time I sent you through the cemetery. I think it's great.

SPEAKER_04 39:17

Yeah, that's it, that's how it should be. Oh, exactly. That's not hazing. That's that's just get off my note. That's yeah, exactly. That's just that's just blokes having fun. Yeah, that's right. That's just the new guy. And I wouldn't do that either. I've not done that.

SPEAKER_02 39:33

Yeah, I know. I was shitting myself.

SPEAKER_04 39:38

Mate, run me through that first couple of weeks, uh, you know, oh first couple of months on the job as a as a JD officer. And you know, I I've with uh former guys or police officers that had on the past, etc. You know, first responders, I always speak about you know, obviously, that first arrest that you do, or first time seeing trauma, you know. Again, you've been through that trauma as you know with your sister, but more you know, obviously within the the public domain.

SPEAKER_02 40:03

Honestly, the first few months I would say is just a bit of a blur. Because it's a massive, like massive change, you know. And um Yeah, just constantly out doing stuff. I I d I don't really know what my first sort of exposure to trauma was, to be honest. But like the first day I went to some guy stabbed himself in his leg. Um but yeah, just crazy, just out trying to catch bad guys, and um but yeah, as I said, we had like a good mixture, so like I had like older guys as well, so going to like a lot of domestics, and back then it was a lot different, like not as much paperwork involved, and and um but it was just full on, like there was always something going on, there was always someone trying to punch on with your like someone going crazy in the back of the car. Like it was completely different back then, but yeah.

SPEAKER_04 41:05

What about uh there's a there's a story here you put in about your parents' house that got broken into?

SPEAKER_02 41:09

Oh yeah, I forgot about that, yeah. So this was only a few weeks after I joined, and I never thought anything about this, but a few weeks before they got broken into, I was at the pub at Toronto, and um a guy I went to school with or I'm friends with knew he lived near Bolton Point, so he knew a few of the Bolton Point boys, and which some of those boys are a bit rough, but I won't go into that. But um come up and like he was with another guy from school, and I just didn't think anything of it, and this other guy turns out was well into crime um at the time, and Tyler, like he was like, we just had a conversation, he's like, Oh, you know, he's just joined the police and blah blah blah, and this guy just basically gave me the like get fucked, and then walked off. Um and I didn't think anything of it, and then a few weeks later, my parents' house got broken into, and they've stolen the car, stolen a heap of stuff. Um I think some of my stuff was there. I was on I was on night shift, I was at work. Um and the next day my sister got a tip-off, and the tip-off was such and such and such and such is involved. One being this guy I'd run into at the pub. Um stuff's been dumped on the side of the road out of Wabba, so they've gone out and found it all. Um anyway, I think like two weeks later, maybe they found mum and dad's car and it was in the process of doing a ram raid or something up at Maitland.

SPEAKER_01 42:55

Oh shit.

SPEAKER_02 42:56

Yeah, and in the car was a bunch of tools, they'll just it just went on a string of crime, feeling breaking it as everywhere. But my phone was in there, I think, from memory, or the box of my phone that was stolen from the house, and fingerprints on there was this guy's sister's fingerprints put up, and then this guy's sister was in a relationship with a second guy that we got told who it was. So that like it was like him and the brother-in-law essentially, and I went to school with both of them. And I didn't like at the time I didn't really think too much of it, but as my career went on, I was like, Oh, these guys planned that for sure. Like, and I was at Wanji, like, why were they going all the way out to Wanji? There wasn't much crime going on at Wangie at the time. Yeah, I was like, Yeah, they've definitely targeted us and broken in there for sure. Um, and I have had conversations with one of those guys since then about it. Yeah and he never like spoke directly about it, but he's he was like, I know you know that I know kind of thing that you know, yeah. And he's like, gave me a half, half-assed apology kind of thing. Yeah, I was like, Yeah, they definitely were like targeting me.

SPEAKER_04 44:10

Yeah, right.

unknown 44:11

Fuck.

SPEAKER_04 44:12

And no one got no one ever got caught for it.

SPEAKER_02 44:14

Never got caught for it, no, but we knew who it was essentially. But they were running amok at the time. So they all went to jail eventually for that. Eventually, yeah, for something, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 44:23

Yeah. As they do, as they do.

SPEAKER_02 44:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 44:26

How long you spend at uh Waratah there? You because there's there's so 2006, sorry, 2006 you get in, was that right?

SPEAKER_02 44:34

2007, January 2007, I think. 2007, yep. Yeah, and then around December 2008, or maybe mid-2008, Newcastle and Waratar joined to form Newcastle City. Yep. And then I think the end of 2008, I joined uh Tag, which is like the proactive team. And we were still based out of Waratar at the time. Um and I did about six months there, I think, maybe nearly twelve months there. And then I moved to Newcastle after that.

SPEAKER_04 45:09

Yep. Yep, during that two thousand period though, there's a few things that obviously popped off in two thousand seven.

SPEAKER_02 45:15

Um yeah, actually that was before yeah, you're about to say that was before I went to Tag.

SPEAKER_04 45:21

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 45:21

Is it w go

SPEAKER_04 45:23

Mate, you've got a couple of things here. There's uh you know there's chasing an African fella. Obviously June two thousand seven, the Pasha Balka.

SPEAKER_02 45:30

Oh yeah, I forgot about the Pasha Bulka. Yeah, mate, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 45:32

Can't forget about that.

SPEAKER_02 45:33

Oh, that's crazy because I've got a few awards with that too. And like um Oh, I forgot all about that. Yeah. There you go. Right. So what date was the Pasha Bulka?

SPEAKER_04 45:45

June 2007.

SPEAKER_02 45:46

Yeah, so I think it was like June 7th or June 8th. And then the next night I had something else happen as well. But yeah, so I was working with the Pasha Bolka came in, and um I was on day shift. I think I started at 6 a.m. I finished at 3 or 4 a.m. the next day. Um Newcastle obviously was involved in the Pasha Bolka, but um we just happened to be in there. Uh back then there was like a um the Newcastle hospital was still open. So we used to take all our mental health patients to Newcastle Hospital. So we were in there taking a mental health patient into the hospital when the Pasha Bolka came in. Um so we were driving around looking at that, and then essentially, I don't know if you remember, but the storms were crazy. And there was like a moment of like kind of like the eye of the storm, but just before that, where it all just died down and nothing was happening, the sun was out, and then it all just kicked off, and then the Pasha Balka got beached, and then it all just went crazy, it started flooding everywhere, and I think we went um there was a school kid walking home from school because they closed the schools out at Maryland, and as he was there's like a little bridge across a drainway there. As he walked across, um he's been washed off, and one of the guys I worked with happened to be out there just as it's happened. He was working, has jumped in to save him, and they both got stuck in a tree. Um I won't tell the full story because really that should be his story to tell. But I remember going lights and sirens with the guy I was with from like nearly like probably Mayfield or something like that, to get there to help him. And it was bananas. Like we were like crossing over the wrong side of the road, like flying over the middle of roundabouts, like getting out there, and then the guy I was working, we've just jumped straight out of the truck. Um, I don't even know if he took his belt off and just run into the flood waters of the winch um out to the other guys to help him. Like they were in the water for about 45 minutes, I think, until the rescue guys got there and the flood waters was rising. They essentially they saved this kid's life. Um basically got hypothermia in the process, and then um and then yeah, we went back to work after that. Go back to the station, had a shower, got dressed, and then it just flooded for the whole day. We were out in the road, got wet again, ran out of clothes because we had no clothes to get changed into. Just constantly going in the flood waters, and then me and the guys working, we've ended up sitting there from about 8 p.m., 9 p.m. till three in the morning, just picking up the phone. Just constantly just hang up the phone, pick up the phone, hang up the phone, pick up the phone. Just people calling up saying, I'm stuck in flood waters, oh my mum's missing. Just got to the point where we're like, fuck, we're gonna go home. This is crazy. Um But yeah, a lot happened that day. Um, but I feel like that should be their story to tell, not mine.

SPEAKER_04 49:08

Yeah, well to get him on, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:10

Um, but yeah, the next night, so we've come into the next night shift. Um, and what had happened is um I don't even know if we'll roster it on or not. I can't remember. But everyone started looting. Like so they're all smashed out of Wall's End, they're smashing all the windows and looting and Mayfield and all this kind of stuff. So um me and two guys I was working with, um we're do we're just doing that, like going around all these businesses and making sure people weren't looting, and then um we're on top of the Mayfield post office for some reason, I can't remember, and um this house caught on fire. Um, and we could see it from where we were. It must have just happened. So we're like, shit, there's a house on fire. Um one of the guys we're with was legged it all the way there, and we got in the car and drove. But by the time we got there, I think it was like a set of like four villas next to each other. Three of the four were on fire. Um, the roof of the fourth one was on fire, and so I've gone running in as the guy was with the same guy that sent me through a cemetery, mind you. Um I think he's gone and tried to go in the other units that were on fire. Um and then when I went in to mine, there's a guy in the lounge, um, drunk out of his mind, drinking a bottle of port, and like, bro, roof's on fire. I was like, we've got to go. And he's just like, get fucked, I'm not going. I'm I'm going down with the ship. Like, I was like, come on, man, you gotta we've gotta go. Your freaking house is on fire. He's like, nah, fuck off. So I've gone to grab him and he's just like slapped me in the face. And so I'm like, oh screw this. So I've walked out, I've ran out. I'm like, Oi, we've got one in here, come help me. So we've gone in, guys like, we've got to go, and he's just like, get fucked. And then essentially, um one thing led to another. We've had to sort of physically drag him out incapacitated, um just to save his life, really. And so we've dragged him out, and I've just dragged him through all these puddles and thrown him over the fence, and um and then the guy's working, we've just gone back in to make sure no one else is in there. Um and then by that stage it was all on fire. So we've got there like sort of just in time. And I don't know, maybe he would have come out when he started burning, you know, like he would have been like I changed my mind. Um and then obviously taking him out of the hospital, had a few injuries he had to get dealt with. But like that was it, like he was refusing to go, right? Like why he wasn't gonna leave, he was like, I'm going down with the ship. So he wanted to punch on, like, and so we had to like force him out, like to help him. Uh anyway, so um one thing led to another. We got awarded a bravery award for that. Um so I got the commendation of brave conduct. I think at the same time the guy that was in the flood waters got the one above that, like a bravery awards star or something. And the guy I was with, I think got the same as me, commendation for brave conduct. Um got to spend a day down at the government house. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um met Marie Bashir, and I think Skippy One was the um commissioner at the time, and uh it was pretty cool. Like, I think another guy got an award when I was there, it was like 42 years in GEDs in King's Cross or something crazy, like Redfern or something like that. He got the Australian police medal, yeah. Yeah, so and I was like, well, I would have been six months in the job then, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 53:18

Jeez, and that's a busy 48 hours there.

SPEAKER_02 53:21

I still like to this day, some of the craziest block of shifts I've worked. Because it went it went in the morning before it all kicked off. We didn't have one job. Like, no one called the cops like all morning, and I was sitting there going, it's never been so quiet. Like the quiet word. I remember like someone's like, You can't say that word, and then it just went hectic. Like, yeah, yeah, that's crazy.

SPEAKER_04 53:49

I I remembered I I wasn't in Newcastle, then I was living in uh I was at Holsworthy Barracks, but I did see the patch of bulk because I was flying a T-Mor. Yeah, and we were looking out the window, we're like, oh shit, because we saw it on the news, like, oh shit, yeah, that happened.

SPEAKER_02 54:02

It was crazy. There's actually there was also one at Stockton, no one talks about. There was one at Stockton that came very close to getting beached. Oh, wow. And a few of the boys were out on Stockton sand dunes in the four-wheel drive, like watching that come in. I've got photos of it on my laptop still. Um yeah, no one ever talks about that because it never actually beached, but it came like really close to getting beached as well. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 54:29

Uh mate, during this time, again, I you know, when I spoke about Brett Pennell earlier, had him on the podcast, he spoke I think he spoke about this arrest of that um that guy that did that murder in Stockton. And you know, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 54:40

I don't know if he I don't know if he spoke about I don't think he did. Didn't he? No, I don't think he did, and that's why I've written it down because I was with actually this is yeah, so there was a murder in Stockton, and I don't know too much about the actual murder, per se. Like I know a lady was like um stabbed to death, essentially. I think it was his roommate or something. And anyway, he went on the run. Like this guy went on the run, and um he was like wanted for murder. Um we just happened to be on night shift. Did I write what date that was?

SPEAKER_04 55:18

That was uh September oh seven.

SPEAKER_02 55:20

Oh, okay, it was. Yeah, right. Yeah, um yeah, so we were on night shift. I think Brett Pennell was the supervisor that night. Um, but it was he was like off team, so he was just helping out with our team, I think. And it was very early, like four or five a.m. or something, and I think he has called his he's called someone, that's not mine, is it?

SPEAKER_04 55:45

It's mine, I think, that's right.

SPEAKER_02 55:49

Um there's been a tip off of where he where he's gonna be, right? Um so there was a bit of uh planning involved, which Brett Pernel was sort of That's his box. Yeah. Yeah, so he was in his element. And it was one of those things where it was like four or five in the morning. If we call someone in, we're gonna lose the opportunity, you know? So um it was like like game on kind of thing. Uh and they come up with a plan. I don't know if I can go too much into the plan, but someone drove past essentially just before it in like a civilian car, and someone might have been hiding in the back to confirm that he was there. And as they've driven past, they've confirmed he's he's there. We're all sitting off nearby, hiding in the back streets, and once he's there, we just swarmed him. And I think uh Fassi was by himself, maybe, because he was supervising, and then it was me and another guy, but I've just legged it there. It just happened to be me and Fassi that arrested this guy. Um I don't know what Fassi's um pistol head torch looks like, yeah. If I'll put it that way. Um, yeah, this guy was like still had a big hunter knife or something on him when he was arrested. Um yeah, yeah. So me and Fassi have like, I think Brett's taken him down at gunpoint essentially, and I've handcuffed him and then searched him and got the knife off him and stuff. And then um, yeah. Actually, it's funny because I worked four and a half hours overtime or something that morning, and then on the way home fell asleep in my car and crashed up the back end of someone. Oh yeah, and I'm like, oh, I've just made all this money in overtime, I'll just freaking crash my car. Like just lost it all.

SPEAKER_04 57:47

Yeah, yeah, right. Well, i i again, that's probably another point though. Workplace of safety, like how many times have you done 14, 15 hour shifts, and then the police expect you to drive home?

SPEAKER_02 57:59

Yeah, it wasn't a thing back then. I think like you can ask now they still get driven home.

SPEAKER_04 58:03

I think they're still bloody doing it, though.

SPEAKER_02 58:04

Yeah, well, they're still doing it, sure. But I used to live out at like out that onejiway, you know, like 45 minutes. Decent, yeah. Yeah. Um but yeah, so I arrested him and I think he actually got off that murder. You'd have to look it up, but I think he got off it on mental health or something. I wasn't involved in the investigating investigation side or anything, I was really junior. Fuck it.

SPEAKER_04 58:28

Jesus. Yeah. Everyone's getting off of mental health these days. Yeah. It's madness. But um just just on that, working with uh Brett Pennell, you know, of obviously uh highly qualified TOU operator at that stage. Um he fucking shot an offender uh, you know, back in 2001. It's got to be confident, you know, make you make you feel confident when you're working alongside some of these people, like fuck man, that dude's like yeah, he's a gangster.

SPEAKER_02 58:57

Well it's funny because I think that was probably the first time I've ever worked with him. Was that probably one of those shifts?

SPEAKER_04 59:02

And you would have heard about him.

SPEAKER_02 59:03

Yeah, yeah. With Brett is he's from where I'm from. Yeah. Right. So he joined when he was like 18 as well. And he me and him have kind of run similar trajectories and all that. Yeah, because like he grew up where I grew up, you know. He went to school, um essentially where I went to school. Like the area hasn't changed that much, you know. He knows what it was like for me as well, kind of growing growing up and a bit wild, you know. Yeah. Um, so like in GDs, I didn't really work with Brett Pinnell so much, but I went to Tag like end of 2008, and he was a supervisor then. And um, yeah, like really good operator, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 59:50

Yeah, 100% made it's uh for the listener again, head back to Brett Pennell.

SPEAKER_02 59:55

He looked after me a bit too because I think he knew what I was sort of going through off duty, like you know. Um and he sort of looked after me a bit, yeah. Yeah, tried to steer me in the right directory.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:11

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:13

The wise old dog, uh, and obviously his his nickname Fassey from uh Fassy Fern. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Funny story about that one when he was getting chased by that person naked.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:23

Oh yeah. I I didn't I didn't listen to that. No.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:26

Wild story, yeah. But I think that's where that Fassy originated from. Uh mate, so obviously you speak about this um obviously uh actually just before you move into that tag stuff, which we'll talk about. So what is tag just quickly?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:42

Well, I s they call there's different names for it. It's like a proactive team. They call my call it SOGs like Special Operations Group or the Proactive Crime Team or Tag Target Action Group. Yeah, it it's like a um it's like a proactive selective group kind of thing. You've got to apply and get a position. Yep. Uh but basically your main role is to go out and catch bad guys doing bad things. Yep. Like know all know who you're looking for, like know what areas of crime are high, know where you're gonna look for things and you know, looking for stolen cars, houses get broken into, wanted offenders. So you're not doing regular GD work. No, like you might respond, you might respond to some urgent jobs and stuff like that, but ideally you're not responding to jobs per se. You're out on the road, like looking for things, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:33

But before you hit mid uh to late 2008, the plane crash.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:39

Yeah, so this is part of the reason why I applied for tag, like to be honest. Um there was a plane crash, I believe it was out west in New South Wales somewhere. Um, I didn't go to the actual plane crash, but what happened is because there was so many people had died in the plane crash, they declared it a disaster or or whatever it is. It's I think they declare it a disaster if there's so many people have died, which then means that like it's a bit of a boost in the investigation kind of thing. Um and so we had to like do sort of like the continuity of the bodies while they were like transported to the hospital and they were like an auto-I don't know if the autopsy was done, but like essentially bodies and body parts were then like bagged and put into and searched and stuff like that. Um, so we got called to the hospital for that, but we didn't know that that's what we were going there for. No one's told us anything. Like they're just like go here for a deceased, essentially, which is like something we do almost normal, yeah, like every week.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:50

Like a normal for you guys, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:52

Like maybe once a week you're going and doing a deceased at the hospital, like um where you're seeing a dead person. And so we've gone up there just assuming that's what it was, and I think this is why it uh one of the reasons why it affected me so much, because like when you have forewarning that you're going to something, you can kind of prepare mentally that's what you're going there for, and so you you you you know what you get to expect when you get there, but we didn't know, and so we've got there and we're going in, and the guy's like, Oh yeah, you're here for the the plane crash. We're like, No, or I don't know, what are we here for? And then like all of a sudden we're going through all these bags and looking at bodies from this plane crash, and um which I won't go too deep into it, like something that I wouldn't recommend people to see. Um, but there was an eight-year-old boy was one of the um the victims of the plane crash, um, which I wasn't prepared to see. Um so we were there for a while, and I think I was maybe even vomiting up in the trash can at some point. I kind of just it was one of those things where I was like, I didn't want to be in the room, and the guy I was with was like, just go go out there, you don't have to be. Like, but I was like, I felt guilty, so I was like, I want to be there. And um, so I didn't really know at the time like what PTSD was or anything like that. I was still only, I would have been 20 maybe. Yeah, um, but that really affected me, and I remember going back, so we left there, and we both left, and we're just like, what the fuck was that? Like, this is bullshit, like who put that job on? Like, and I remember going back to the police station and I can't remember it was me or the other guy I was with, getting in a bit of back and forth with whoever put the job on, like that you could have rang us and told us what it was. And anyway, on the bench next to them was the daily newspaper, which had front page this family that had just died in the plane crash, and the story on the front page. I've just gone like what the hell, man, like you know, and whoever was working at the station, I can't even remember who it is who it was. I'm just like, surely you didn't even think this could be a problem. And um anyway, that that was kind of something that steered my life off the rails for a little bit, I would say. Um it affected me. I didn't know at the time that it affected me, but I was kind of like in the headspace of like oh like screw this, like I don't even really want to be here anymore. Like that was that's not something that I really want to be seeing. Like, well, I love the job completely, but that's one part that I completely do not like, you know. And I kind of went into the phase of like I don't really know if I want to be here anymore. Like um, and that's why I applied for tag, because I was like, I've got to get out of GDs, because that really fucked me up a bit. And um I thought about that for a long time.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:32

Does that link you you know, did that, you know, you you speak about talking to a psychologist.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:37

Did that link back to your sister just seeing a young kid or I don't think so. It was just the fact of I wasn't prepared to see a dead eight-year-old boy, you know, like or girl. I can't remember it was a boy or a girl, but they had died in a plane crash. Like, you know, that adds a bit extra on to it. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:55

Um was that the first time seeing uh a young child that was.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:01

Yeah, I think that was my first time. Yep. Um I'd seen some since.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:05

And obviously it wouldn't have been pretty either. That's the worst thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:07

No, it definitely wasn't pretty. And um I don't want to go into too much detail. Of course, yeah, no, for sure. For sure. Probably family that's still alive. But um it was something where I was like, I don't even know if I want to do this anymore because I was just at that age, like when Where all of my mates, like we're all 20 years old, you know, 19, 20 years old. And I was like, at that age where like my mates were like, fuck the police, basically. Not really, but like they were. No, they were.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:38

That yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:39

You know what I mean? Like, I don't know if I could this guy's a copper. I don't know if we want him around us. Like, and I was like, do I value like my friends or the job like more? And I was like, I'd rather have my friends than the job. And then um, so I kind of hated it for a while, yeah, to be honest. And then I joined Tag. Just I I applied for Tag just out out of a whim. Like me and Ashwiff applied at the same time, actually. And it was out of a whim. And I if I didn't get that spot, I don't know how much longer I would have stayed there, to be honest. Shit. Like it was one of those things where I joined, I got the spot, and then it re reignited my love a bit for it, you know. Um, it got me out of GDs, and yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:23

And the attitude back then, you know, that we're talking 2008, mate. Again, I I understand. I was in Afghanistan by this time.

SPEAKER_11 1:08:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:29

But I understand the the effects of you know mental health, but going to a superior and say, hey boss, uh I've I've I'm feeling a bit, you know, they'd be like, Fucking who are you?

SPEAKER_03 1:08:40

Like oh, especially back then.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:42

Yeah, that's what I mean. That's what I mean. I don't So you couldn't go out and like reach out to someone and say, mate, love.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:48

I was stuck in an awkward position where like I was 20 years old. Everyone I worked with was like 40. Yeah, you know. So they would have just fucking like you know, we did catch up sometimes on days off, got on the beers, but like I like I wasn't really gonna approach them and talk about it. And it didn't really happen back then anyway. Yeah, people didn't talk about stuff back then, and like I wasn't gonna go to my mates uh 20 on the beers, like running a mark, like you know, I've seen this and I'm all fucked up over it, so I kind of just buried it. But then every time I got on the beers, it would sort of resurface, and um I think that's why I sort of stepped up my game on the beers a bit, like got a bit looser, and I kind of just went down a path of like I don't really care so much about my job anymore. Like if I lose it, I'll lose it. I'd rather be hanging out with my friends, and you know, like and I I went down that path for a little while, and I kind of would say I went off the rails a little bit, like I was just a bit wild for a while. Just drinking, just drinking and going out all the time, like on my days off, like that's how we met essentially. Yeah, you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:59

Um it would have been probably a year later, yeah, less than a year later. So you've just gone through this, and I didn't even know, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 1:10:06

Like yeah, yeah, that's right. And like I didn't talk about that for many years, like, but it was still always there in the background, like I just didn't acknowledge it, you know. Um until I did, and then I realised oh, it's still lingering back there in the background, you know. And I would say that that's probably my first um PTSD moment per se. Like that was the first time I've really experienced PTSD that I can f remember. But back then, not back then I had no idea what PTSD was.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:41

You can look back and go, fuck, that was the game.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:43

Yeah, that was that was the catalyst. And that was the reason why I I sort of started partying so much. Like definitely, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:53

So you sm you smashing the booze, getting out a lot, but then obviously, like you said, you apply for this tag to try, and this was GD work and you know, get exposed to that side of more of that.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:04

I just wasn't loving GDs at that time. Like I the my first 18 months before that, I loved GDs, you know. I've that was awesome. But I just had that thing and I went, Oh, I don't know if this is for me.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:15

And then yeah, went to Tag and And that's Newcastle station though?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:20

Uh that was still Waratar at the time. Yep. Yeah, so Newcastle and Waratar joined, and then we went um I was in Tag at Warata, yeah, but we covered all of Newcastle.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:31

Gotcha, gotcha. Yeah. How'd you find that uh tag stuff? Like you spoke about before you loved it.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:36

Yeah, I would say if you were to put like all of my roles together that I've worked, well, that's obviously the favourite, and that's probably what I was best at.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:46

Yep. You know, yeah. So during this stage, like you said here, I'm assuming when you're in this tag, again, you're dealing directly in the faces of repeat offenders. Yeah. So they start to it becomes a cat and mouse game. They go, Oh, here comes Ben.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:03

Yeah, yeah. Well, everyone everyone knew me. Yeah. Like everyone.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:07

How big's how big's this tag?

SPEAKER_02 1:12:09

Obviously, I think there was about 15 of us in there. Yeah. Yeah. So um I think Brett Pennell was the supervisor. Um, another lady that Jace Patterson spoke about was the other one. So we had like a really good team there, actually. Um, and we all sort of got on. Um, and yeah, and it was wild back then. Busy. Yeah, busy. And a lot of stuff going on, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:38

What what's the extent of the criminal activity? Are we talking just robberies and yeah, it was like armed robberies as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:45

Yeah, we we don't inv we weren't investigating armed robberies, the D's were, but like you you get sort of drawn into like um like you might help out with with things that they need and stuff like that. So um there's heaps of armed robberies going on, heaps of breaking inners, like commercial breaking inners, um, like gangs of drug suppliers, stuff like that. But it's just like Newcastle breaking inn's red hot, especially back then, and back then, like fingerprints and DNA, like the system wasn't as what it is now. Developed, yeah. And so you'd be getting um like DNA hits from two years earlier, and then you'll get one, and you'd have to go and arrest them, and then over the next six months, that person might get another 20 or 30, you know, and they're getting arrested for like 30 breaking edits because the DNA takes so long to get back. And I think fingerprints is like maybe six to twelve months as well. So you're getting these crooks like 12 months down the track, so they've been off the rails for like 12 months, you know, like running amok, or they're all by that stage they're in jail, and you've got to go and interview them in the in the jails and stuff. So a lot of that, like uh following up those jobs.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:06

What about chases?

SPEAKER_02 1:14:07

Obviously, all the time, just non-stop, yeah, yeah, constantly. And back then was uh I think it was that was the same time. There was yeah, there was armed robberies going on, and then there was these kids getting around knocking off skylines, nissing skylines, and so they'd only steal Nissan Skylines, they had some way that they'll stealing them, and I think they'll go on to like the car meets and following them home. Like following all the good cars. Yeah, yep, yep. And then all they'll find ones that were for sale, and then they'd sit off and then knock them off. So you're constantly chasing this and skylines around. This is crazy, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:46

Yeah, back then too, yeah. The old GTRs, mate. They fell fast cars too.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:52

Oh, it was fun.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:54

It would be, yeah, it would be. Um how long you spend in that tag?

SPEAKER_02 1:15:01

Uh, about six to twelve months, I would say.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:05

And what's the reason why you left Tag?

SPEAKER_02 1:15:08

I don't know, I got in a bit of mischief.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:11

Drinking.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:12

Uh, not really. A bit of both, yeah. I probably just wasn't mature enough to be there, to be honest. I got a bit of a tap on the shoulder and said, I think you need to go spend some time away. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there's more to it, but yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:31

But obviously booze involved.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:33

Uh booze involved, and yeah, just a bit of everything. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:37

Yeah. Yeah, right. So it they've they've booted you from tag and you've got to go back to Newie as a GD. How did that affect you?

SPEAKER_02 1:15:46

I loved it. Oh, did you? Yeah, yeah. I I went there expecting I'd hate it. And I got there and I was like, oh, this is awesome. Like, you're working right next to the beach, you're doing beach runs, like, there's heaps of crime, like there's heaps of like stuff going on in in town. You got all the housing commission areas, and so there's like always something going on, you know. So I loved it, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:09

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:10

Yeah, didn't think I would, but yeah. So I stayed there for a long time, yeah. Is that where you pretty much stay for the rest of your Yeah, until sort of uh yeah, basically. I was in Yui for for years and then um I ended up at Warata towards the end.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:26

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:27

Now during this time, like we spoke about at the start of the podcast, there, there's uh a point here where you you know you're walking the train lines at Hamilton and mate Romney.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:36

Oh so I think it was uh it was before the light rail was in. So I think it was between Wickham and Yeah, well before the light rail. Yeah, it was between Wickham and Civic. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. The reason why I've written this story down, because this is just like a bit of a demonstration of how it was at the time. Um this guy's gone to a party at King Street, I think, and he's left. And I don't know if he was deliberately walking on the tracks or not. Like, I don't remember what the the answer was. I don't believe he was suicidal, I think it was like an accident. And I don't know if you know too much about trains, but you can't really hear them coming towards you. Like you can only hear them when they go past, they're like really quiet, um, unless they're on the horn. Uh anyway, this guy's been collected by a train. Um, and then we've been called, and there's a heap of us, and I think what we had to do was we had to step down the tracks to determine like how big the crime scene was gonna be. So we had to figure out like where he had been hit to where his body parts ended up essentially, or his body. So we had to like walk down the tracks and like walk down the tracks, you know, and like see a leg with a shoe on it. I just sitting there and I'm like, Oh, there's a leg with a shoe on it, and then like a bit further down, there's like you know, other things, other body parts and stuff like that. Yeah. And then just have to go, okay, well, this is as far as it went. An accident or suicide or whatever. Um, so then they made the crime scene and we sort of went on and did other things because we weren't the first ones there. We were sort of just there helping out. And I think we had a student with us, so we had to make the students stay in the car, and I think we had to drop them back at the station, maybe. Yeah, but um, yeah, wild. I just remember thinking this looks so fake, it looks exactly like a horror movie, but then I was like, oh, maybe the horror movies have got it so right that it looks fake, you know? Yeah, yeah. And that's actually what it just looks like, you know. Crazy.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:05

It is crazy because it's not normal. Yeah, I know it's just not I and it's wild too. I do remember that story. Yeah, do remember again. I think we spoke about this offline. There's so many stories that you've listed, and yeah, Mold of what other cops have had on the podcast, and I'm like, fuck. I saw that on the news. I dead set saw that on news.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:22

It's funny because I tell this story if we talk about it at work, doesn't like it's just normal, you know. I remember going and I was all of my mates, non-cop friends used to be like, What's the worst thing you've seen? And I'd never tell them the worst thing. I would tell them like two or three down from that kind of thing. And I remember telling them maybe not that story, but a different one, and I just saw all their faces around the circle start to drop in shock, and I thought it was funny. I was like, This is kind of amusing because something funny happened at the same time, and they'll just like what the hell? And I went, Oh, maybe this isn't normal.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:08

It's not. For the regular person, it's not because people don't experience that or never will experience that.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:15

Whereas again, like every single day, man, GDs, yeah, every day.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:18

Sign on, get your gun, and you don't know what you're going to. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:22

Sometimes it might be multiple times a day, you know.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:27

So you're loving the Newcastle life, however, the drinking, is that uh continuing on, getting worse?

SPEAKER_02 1:20:34

Yeah, and a big thing for me was like I was going out with the boys all the time.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:38

King Street.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:39

King Street, the brewery, Fannies. And like so I was only what 21, 20, 21, and all the boys I was arresting arresting in the beginning that were like 16 and now 18. And they're all old enough and they're all out in the beers and stuff like that. So I was going in town a lot, um, and also during the week. Um and running into these guys, obviously, and they were actively committing serious crime at the same time. So, you know, they're they're constantly I'm having run-ins with them constantly, you know.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:27

Do they ever threaten you?

SPEAKER_02 1:21:29

Um yes. I had one incident where I got my head punched in from a bunch of teenagers, uh, which I believe was targeted from one of their brothers or something like that. Um so we had that, that's a story for another day. But I had one incident where I went to I was at Fanny's, and it was a Wednesday night because it was student night, and um I went with one guy, and he's like one of the rugby boys from out Toronto, so uh yeah, it was fine. So me and him went out, and I think we met up with other people when we were out there, but like people I didn't know, kind of thing. And when we went to Fennies, all these boys were there, and I didn't think too much of this because I was just like by that point I'd fucking I'd had enough of them, you know, like and they kind of surrounded me and they were talking shit to me, and I think I was giving them a bit back, but I didn't know that a few of them had like circled behind me, and the guy I was with didn't want anything to do with it. I was like, fuck, thanks for backing me up, and then he told me after, he was like, that was gonna punch your head in. Um but I was sort of just giving him a bit of a gob full back, they were giving me some and I was just like giving it back to him because I'd had enough of them. But I didn't know, but through different channels, I went into work like a night or two later. I got pulled aside by um the detectives, and they're like, Did you have a run-in at Fanny's the other night? And I was like, Yeah, and they're like, Well, these guys are like um they're planning to kick your head in, basically. So like essentially essentially what's happened after that conversation is through different channels, it's gotten back to all these guys were doing armed robberies at the time. I wasn't aware of it, and um the D's have found out like they're they're talking about me how they're gonna kick my head in next time they see me, and all this kind of shit. And um, and then that's why I remember that time, like from then on, I was like, Well, I'm only gonna go out now if I've got a posse with me, you know, I'm not gonna go out by myself anymore. And um and like I'm only gonna go out with certain mates that I know.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:07

That'll back you up.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:08

Yeah. I was still friends with that guy. Like, what's he gonna do with six or eight guys, you know? Like um. But like at the same time, I was like, oh, I kind of be gotta be a little bit careful because these guys are actual criminals, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:23

It's a small thing. Not all of them.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:25

I I speak to some of them now. I run into them down the street and I and they we talk about, oh, I remember when all this shit used to go down. Yeah. But at the same time, like if they had the opportunity, they would have they would have dust me. So I I started to be a bit more careful after that, and I kind of was like, oh, I won't be going out Wednesday nights by myself anymore.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:46

And that's the hard part about a small town like you know, Newcastle, five, six hundred thousand people back then. Yeah, you know, only a couple hundred thousand more now, but still there's only certain places you can go to in Newcastle.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:58

Yeah, that's right. Like on Wednesday nights, it's only Fanny's Fanny.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:01

It was the Queen's Wolf or the brewery back then.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:02

Yeah, the brewery, Fanny's, and um and customs. Customs, that's it. Customs house, yeah. That's it. So, you know, running into them all the time. Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:13

So obviously they were chatting to their other criminal mates, and obviously their criminal mates are already being watched by the new sellers police and your name's already popped up in a in a pretty much in a text message, like, oh mate, fucking well, they won't kill Ben.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:25

Yeah, they're like basically like we're gonna kick his head in the next time we see him. And I think they're like kind of planning it too.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:31

I don't I don't know exactly the story for the detectives to come up to you and it must have been elevated. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:39

Yeah. But but back then, like they weren't gonna do like it's not like they're gonna go, we need to put a plan out to stop you from going out.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:48

Yeah, it's just a warning, like heads up, just heads up.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:51

These guys want to kick your head in.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:52

Go some boys next time.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:54

Yeah, yeah, basically, yeah. But you know, they were stealing cars left, right, and centre, and I was hard on them too, so they hated me, you know, they had a reason to hate me.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:05

Yeah, yeah, right. Um you're back in Newcastle, and it's just busy times, just busy times on uh, you know, getting into the job July 2011, you deal with um aggravated robbery and a rape of a 23-year-old.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:25

Yes, that's a big one, actually. Um that's a really big one. That that was like um so I remember we just bought our dinner actually. It was about probably only eight o'clock, and this girl was walking home from I think she worked at Market Town, and she was walking home to the hill, and this guy's I think he planned it, like he was sitting off and waiting for someone to walk past, and she just happened to be the first person. Um has dragged her at knife point into a laneway, and then essentially sexually assaulted her, um and then done the runner. She's gone into a house the first house she saw and asked for help. And then we've been called. Me and another guy I was working with, we're like the first ones there. Um and I remember because we were eating our dinner, I was just like, I just threw the dinner and just legged it to the car and drove down there. Um, and then essentially, because a lot of these calls you get, you don't really know how legitimate it is. So until we were sure what happened, like I as soon as I walked in, I was like, fuck, jobs on, this is like like this is full on. Uh so I called the D's down, and while they were getting down, I was like inside, sort of um I had to talk to the girl and try and it's funny, I don't remember her name. Uh I it's just gone from my brain. Um and I basically spent the whole night with her, like got basically got the basic info of what's happened. Um, she pointed out where it's happened, and then she also pointed, I remember she pointed to this wall up the street, and she said, as I was walking up the street, he was leaning up against this wall and having a cigarette, or something, something along those lines, those lines. And I remember the laneway where it was, had these big pebbles in it, and I'll go back to that at the end, but um Dee's turned up and basically told him what happened. They've had a brief conversation with a girl. I've gone up to the hospital with her, I was up the hospital with her for hours, like um, where they've done like the full sexual assault kit and all this kind of stuff, and basically got as much details as I could from her of what happened. Drove her home, got a a change of actually got her a change of clothes on the way to the hospital. Um And yeah, essentially, I wasn't part of the investigation after that, but I went back to the scene after that, and yeah, there was these big pebbles, right? Like big runs, like not something you would think a footprint would be on. And there was all these markings all over, and I'm like, asked the crime scene guy, what's all the markings for? And um, they're like, Oh, it's footprints. I was like, Well, you can get footprints off these massive rocks, and they're like, Yeah. So anyway, I won't go too much into the investigation side because I wasn't a part of it. But they've identified who it is essentially through DNA. Identify this guy who lived close by. Um and then uh can't remember how many months later, they arrested him. And I was working that day, and one of the guys that went to do the search warrant said they handed him a photo of a pair of shoes. They said, I know, like, I don't know exact size, but like size 10, this shoe, blah blah blah, might have a worn heel or something like that. And they go to the house and boom, there these shoes were. No way. Yeah, I was like, I was so bizarre. Like I had no concept that I could get footprints off these massive pebbles. I was like, that's crazy. But that full investigation is crazy how it how they caught that guy. I won't go into it because I wasn't a part of it, but um if anyone wants to look it up, like it's uh what 2011 Cooks Hill.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:28

Yeah, Daniel Paul Keely.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:30

Yeah, Daniel Paul Keeley. I think he got 20 years jail.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:32

You said 15-15 here.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:34

Yeah, maybe 15 years non-parole.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:36

Fuck it be he's out.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:37

Is he?

SPEAKER_04 1:30:38

I believe he's out in Newcastle.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:40

I don't know where he is, yeah. Wow. Or he's out or he's due to get out, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:44

Hope someone gives him an uppercut. Yeah. All three.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:49

Out of all of my years, like that's one of the most serious or that's the most serious sexual assault I've been part of. Is it yeah? And mate, at the time it made like big news.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:01

Again, mate, it's one of those ones that I remember seeing on the news.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:04

I remember that I was on the truck and obviously the the detectives might have had an idea of who it was pretty quickly, but um all the crooks are talking about it, and all the crooks are like trying to help you. They're like, fuck this bloke. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:21

Yeah, mate. Again, another one that I remember seeing on the news, and it it obviously it filtered back down to us in the pubs and clubs as well, because we come out with these little cards and had to hand them out to people and just tell girls like don't walk by yourself, walk with someone else.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:34

Yeah, and it's just only 8.2. It wasn't like it wasn't super late, you know, and it was like a busy, it was kind of walking through cook busy streets of Cook's Hill, like there just happened to be no one there at the time.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:44

Like just yeah, Daniel Paul Keeley. Yeah, Daniel Paul Keely, yeah, right. Never met the guy. Tell you what, God has his plan. As Drake would say. Uh what else we got here? So, where are you living? Where are you living in all this? Are you living with another cop? Are you living by yourself?

SPEAKER_02 1:32:07

Um originally I was living out with a few boys out the west side, but then I moved in town around 2011 and I was living at the junction. Club camp, we used to call it. Because it was on Camp Street. So we lived at Club Camp. All the boys used to come around any night of the week, beers were on, doesn't matter what night it was, it was always me or my mate weren't working because my mate was casual um at the time. And yeah, bit of a party house. Got broken into though, got broken into, and I think I'm partly to blame for this because we live like right near the housing commission, right? And uh this was a target of breaking in her, mind you. They've lined me up, like for sure. I remember like a week or so before it, they're riding past, but they knew I lived there, and um I was like, it's just a matter of time before we get broken into. And uh one of them gave me a gobful once, and I was out in the veranda, it was like the middle of the day. It was probably a Sunday, I'd say, like, because we were on the beers already, it's like probably two in the afternoon, and so I've given him a serve back, and then anyway, off he goes, like one of the regular guys that was constantly breaking into places. Uh anyway, we've gone out in the beers one night, like everyone came round, had pre-drinks, and then we've gone to go out. And uh me mate left, I remember this because my my friend left the porch light on, and I was like, go in and turn that fucking porch light off. I was like, junkies are like flies, they're attracted to the light. We got a bit of an argument over it, and I was like, no, go and fucking turn it off, and he didn't, so I was like, right oh, so off we go to the pub. And I think I came back early, yeah. I did. I came back early because I had to work the next morning at um a festival. It was like one of those festivals in town, and anyway, um so I've come home and I had someone with me, and they stayed a couple of hours and they've left, and then anyway, went to bed, then my roommate came home after me, locked the door, but I believe like we had like a like a it was a three-story apartment, so the middle story had a veranda, and that was closed, but it wasn't locked. So I'd been to Cole's because I was with someone and bought some food, and I bought like Eminem cookies, Mars bar cookies, and uh some ice cream, whatever. And wake up the next day and he's he comes barging in my room, where the fuck's my laptop? And I'm like, I don't know, man. He goes, like, what have you done with my laptop? Like, accused me of stealing his laptop. Anyway, we'll go broken into. So while we're asleep, someone's jumped on the verina, opened that door, gone in, stolen all of our stuff, um, stolen our laptops, and the brand new box of MM cookies. And I had a brand new box of Marsbar cookies right next to it, and I'm like, why the fuck would they steal the MM cookies? This is bizarre. I knew a person at the time that knew how to unlock laptops, obviously involved in crime, like I wasn't, like I knew them professionally through work, and I just happened to have their phone number, so I'm like, fuck this, I'm gonna ring them. I've called them and I'm like, if you see these two laptops, they're fucking mine. I want them back because I had all of my travel photos on there and everything, and I didn't know any of this, like, but it just so happened that at the time my laptops were sitting on the desk in front of them.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:01

Oh shit.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:02

Someone's already trying to flip them.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:05

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyway, one thing led to another. And I think they must have got spooked because they've gone, how does he know that we've got the laptops? You know. So one thing led to another, and we found out who broke into the house. Who was this guy that happened to be best friends with? And um anyway, it's they've they've ended up getting spooked, all of them. And eventually this guy went on the run. The boys arrested him for having the warrants, and when they've arrested him, he's coughed up to breaking into my house. And blah blah blah. And um I think he got four and a half years. Yeah. But years later, I was talking to his friend, and just out of conversation, well actually before that, I've always believed that there was two people involved, not just one. And then the guy that got arrested since then, we've caught a re we've kind of reconciled, you know. He got out of jail, he apologised to me, blah, blah, blah. And from what I understand is he was taken to this house, my house, and said, that's the one you need to break into. He didn't know it was my house, but the person that took him there has gone. That's the house you've got to, you know, go to that house. And so he's broken into our house because he was told to go there. Years later, I'm talking to just this bloke who he's friends with just randomly in the street. And he was out in front of Carl's and he he had like Eminem cookies in his bag. I was like, Oh, you got fucking Eminem cookies, and he goes, Yeah, they're my favourite. And as he said, they're my favourite, I saw his eyes just light up and he's going, shit, I put my foot in my mouth, and then he's kind of tried to divert the conversation to something else, and he's kind of freaked out and flipped out, like as junkies do, and then he's kind of ended the conversation and off he goes. And like that dirty dog. Yeah, yeah. Everybody was there, or old mates got the MM cookies for him because they're his favourite. Cookie thief.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:33

Yeah, he's been busted.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:34

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:36

He's out there listening.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:37

I was always asking him, there's more than one person involved.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:40

You know, and you should have been a detective.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:45

I'm gonna have to try these buddy cookies now.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:48

Yeah, MM cookies. Yeah, well, this guy loves them. He also loves other things.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:53

Laptops. Yeah, right, mate. Just bring that microphone down a little bit closer. Yeah. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, that's right. But uh that's fucking classic. Uh from there, mate, you take a bit of a three-month trip to Europe. Yep. And I'm assuming that never goes well. Being young. Man, four of my mates. Four of your mates, all cops. Not cops. Cvies. Yeah. So they're on it.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:19

Yeah, we're all on it. Yeah. And oh yeah, and the Olympics was on at the same time. So we just happened to get to London and st we'll stay in with my mate in London, actually.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:31

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:32

Who lived right next to Highbury Stadium and um Just turned it on for three months. And the Olympics was on at the same time.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:38

So we just yeah, hit the ground running. Just just on that quickly, was it a good reset for you? Um like a good just like fuck three months of just letting me.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:48

It was, but I went I went too hard because like I think like a couple of days before it.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:52

And that's what I just want to bring up just now.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:54

Yeah. Um was that like uh the disease or the this is this is the message. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:00

Yeah. Uh uh, so there's uh a crazy overdose, and then you had to go do that death mess message.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:07

Well, that overdose in itself was a death message.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:09

Oh, was it?

SPEAKER_02 1:40:10

Yeah, I don't know if that other one happened before or afterwards. I can't tell you, but there was like a string of things in a row, and that was they were both one of them. So the first one was um I'll I'll quit I'll go into both real quick. Um the first one was there was a guy had stolen a car from I think Newcastle or Windale or something like that, and he'd gone up to Kempsey with his girlfriend. And I remember this guy probably would have been maybe in his 30s or late 20s at the time, and his girlfriend was like 17 or 18, and there was big hoo-ha with the family. They didn't I think she came from a good family, and he was just a dropkick, and they didn't want her to be with him or anything like that, but um they've gone up to Kemsey for some reason, I think they were on the heroin, maybe, or he was on the heroin, and on the way back he's crashed the car, killed her. I think she was 18, and then I think he broke his foot or his ankle or something like that, and he's been transported to the hospital. But because she lived in Adamstown, um we've been told we're gonna go do the death message, and he was from Waratar as well, or Mayfield or something, so they're both Newcastle, so we all knew him. I think he was like a HRO or something at the time, like a high-risk offender, like he's been identified as like someone that's active, like we've got to keep an eye on, basically. Piece of shit, yeah, absolute grub. Um, and so we've had to go do that death message to his mum, and it was horrific. Like, it was one of the worst things I've been a part of. Um, she was like screaming like a lunatic, like obviously, for obvious reasons, but just just completely distraught and just like I I can still hear her screams. Like every time someone screams or a kid screams, like yeah, it's her scream. Um so we had to do the that death message, it was really bad, and then because she lived alone, we're like, oh, we can't leave her here. So we had to drive her to her son's place, this girl's brother. So then we had to deliver a second death message, um, which was just as bad. Um, and then afterwards we left, and I remember the guy I was working with, I was just like, dude, that was fucked, that was insane. He's like, Yep, that was the worst thing I've ever done. And um can't watch horror movies anymore because of that. But I remember because I was on night shift, and then the next day, so I'll make the guy um got taken to the hospital um and then absconded from the hospital because he knows he's gonna get arrested for killing this girl. Um so he's done the runner um with a broken leg. And so the next day, when the my mates were still in tag at the time, I think I was not long out of tag or something like that. Like so all the boys in Tag I was still like friends with, still am friends with, um, they've gone out looking for him. Um and they have found him at Mayfield Um the next morning, eating the sneaky Maccas cheeseburger, sitting at the sitting at the kitchen bench, reading the newspaper article, having a good old laugh about how he's just killed this chick and done the runner and all this kind of shit. Like zero remorse. Fuck. And then um, like he's on the list. You know, you got a list of someone, oh yeah, yeah, like he's on it. Oh, he's added. He's on all our lists, yeah. He's been on the list, you know, like added. And um, yeah, like killed that girl, also went to court, I believe, got off the dangerous driving, got four and a half years jail. I believe that's all he got. Criminal history as long as my arm, you know, stolen a car, got on the drugs, crashed it, killed a girl, 18 years old, four and a half years jail. Back out, committing crime, doing breaking inners, and what have you. Like, like should have got at least 10, I would say. Like, but I I don't know the reasons why it got dropped down. I I believe it got dropped down, like the charges got like downgraded potentially, but justice system still four and a half years jail, not enough.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:50

Mate, eye for an eye, that's the way I see it.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:53

Well, yeah, especially like you know, criminal history as long as as long as your arm been committing crime his whole life.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:59

No doubt he's still out there doing it. Yeah, or he's in jail. Or in jail.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:03

Yeah. Um, and like that's your opportunity to give him a good whack. And nah, like, I don't know about you, but four and a half years jail is nothing for that.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:15

These judges, yeah, these and it's not no, we're going sidetrack here, but these judges are still doing this. Oh, that's one of many examples. That's what I mean. Like, they're still doing this.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:26

I could sit here for six hours giving you an example. So, like, fuck. Um, so yeah, that was one death message, and that really uh really affected me. Um I've never wanted to do deaf messages ever since.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:41

Was that your first one?

SPEAKER_02 1:45:42

Or no, I've been involved in some before then, but that was can't be easy. That was crazy. And then so what happened not long after that was this second one, and this was only a couple of days before I went overseas. Because I remember because I was working with one of my mates, a guy had overdosed, but he was like he was I believe he was a chef at a kitchen, never been in trouble before, you know, but he was just a recovering drug addict kind of thing, like and had a good, like was engaged, like about to get married, like had a house, you know, not on that side of the fence, kind of thing. But he's going and buying drunks drugs off these guys at Merriweather who were like on that side, you know, well known to us. And he's gone up there after work and he's got on the drugs and uh essentially overdosed, had a heart attack, gone into cardiac arrests, and we've rolled in there with the ambos, and they've done um like CPR on him for a fair fair while, couldn't bring him back. I think he was like not much older than me, he might have been like 30, I was like maybe 25, and I was going away, so my mate was like, I'll do the paperwork because you're not gonna be here. So I was like, right uh. Um, but someone had to go and do the death message, and there was like a we had like a staff shortage that night, and there was two other one people on who were more junior to me, a bit uh one's older, but more junior. And because I've had that bad experience like recently before it, I was like, nah, they're not going by themselves to do it. Fuck it, I'll go up there and do it. So I went with them to do it. And obviously, I just I didn't assume what his background was, like I didn't know what his background was, I didn't know that he, you know, he'd had a family. I I think his partner was maybe pregnant potentially at the time, and so I've gone and done that death message not knowing any of that and going like shit, like and then that's kind of set the theme for my Europe trip. I've done that, and then I think it was like one of my last shifts, and then I've gone and leave, and I'm like in the zone of like ah fuck this, like I've had enough again, you know. Had like a bit of a love-hate relationship going on, but I'd love it, and then something bad would happen. I'd be like, Oh, I hate this, you know. So that sort of happened just before I left, and then that sort of set the tone for the the Europe trip, and it just kicked off so it turned into a Euro trip, mate.

SPEAKER_04 1:48:36

Yeah, it's just fuck up, yeah, Europe and consume you. It can consume you. So obviously, you've spent that three months over there just turning it on too far every day, basically. Every day, get back, yeah, and you just wrecked.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:52

And it was one of those things where like there was four of us together, right? So you know, you might make up you might wake up dusty and go, oh, I can't I can't get on it today.

SPEAKER_04 1:49:02

Well, you get pushed into it, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:04

But at least one of those four is gonna be fresh, yeah, and they're gonna be like, let's go. Yeah, a beer, then you're on. Alright, let's go. Yeah.

unknown 1:49:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:12

So I sort of uh let my hair down a bit in Europe. Um went a bit too hard. And then come back straight back to work.

SPEAKER_04 1:49:20

So you get back to work, how you feeling? Are you like like I said, it was it a I know you fucking turn it on probably physically, like just your body's just going, fuck, not enough beer. I can't do another bit. But also you've had three months of work, yeah, which probably you just like fucking actually feel actually.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:35

Oh yeah, massive reset. Yeah. Uh but physically I don't think my body was ready for it.

SPEAKER_04 1:49:40

Which shows uh we'll talk about it soon, but in 13 it changes a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:45

Yeah, yeah. So I've gone straight back to work basically. I I might have got back on the Friday, went back to work on the Monday or something crazy like, you know. Um and then yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:50:00

Straight back in the journey.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:02

What'd I start? I'll probably come back in the October or September or something like October, I'd say. And then by Christmas, I was getting stitches, getting stitches. Um, so I think it's a common theme that every Christmas Eve I get punched in the face, but um, or getting them some mad dust up. But this Christmas Eve I was working with one of my mates, and um there wasn't much going on, it'd been raining, so we're just cruising around and trying to do something. And I happened to have my friend from London who I'd just been partying with, was flying in that day. So we weren't doing too much, we're just cruising around. I wanted to go and party the next day with my mates, but um it was just before midnight, like minutes before midnight, this car's driven past, full of a bunch of uh like maybe fringe OMCG members kind of thing, like well known, like heavy dudes, like dangerous guys. Um, and I've kind of recognised one of them in the back seat. Um wasn't a hundred percent sure it was him at the time, but I was pretty confident it was him. He'd been on the run for like 18 months. Or something like that, like a fair, fair, fair whack of time. And so we've pulled him over in Beaumont Street. Um, and the car was full of these dudes, like bad guys. And so saw him in the back, and I was pretty sold that it was him at the time, but it wasn't when he well, I asked him his name, and he's given me a false name. The false name he gave me, I actually know the guy, and I got, oh yeah, okay, it's him. I was right, it is him. So I've got I've gotten him out of the car, and apparently I didn't know this, but the conversation was in the car before we pulled him over, was like, if they know who I am, it's on and I'm I'm gonna punch on with them. And the guys in there have kind of tried to stop him from doing that. But I didn't know any of that, we didn't know any of that. He's got out all friendly, and as soon as I've gone, You're such and such, you're under arrest, he's just king hit me straight in the mouth, and like obviously rocked me, put my tooth through my lip, and then legged it. And so we've chased him, but he only got like a few meters, and we've tackled him into the ground, and as that happened, I've just uh my mouth just opened up and I've just been I just started bleeding everywhere like crazy. Like I don't know if you've ever broken your nose, but it was like that like just blood everywhere, bleeding all over him, all over the guys working with, and we're wrestling with him and his face first, and it had been raining, but it had stopped raining, his face first, and he's put on a mad fight, and we're like wrestling with him, finally get him in handcuffs, and the security guards from SJs come running across to help us. And as soon as they get there, I think I was like a little bit concussed, I might have had like a little bit of a flash knockout or something. I've gone, I'm out, I'm bleeding everywhere. So I'm like, I've so I've sort of peeled out and let them sort of do the job, and I've sat on the gutter and just bled into this puddle that I'm that and we didn't realise at the time, but when we're wrestling with him, we've tackled him to the ground, we've tackled him face first into a puddle. And essentially, as we're fighting him, he's fighting us. We're like accidentally drowning him in this puddle. Had no idea, and so when they've rolled him over, I'm sitting on the gutter, bleeding everywhere. I've looked over and he's just purple, soaking wet, and his face is all like red and purple and stuff, and I've gone, bloody hell, what's happened to you? And then we we didn't realise until we've rolled him over, and then we're going, Why is he purple? And we're like, Oh fuck, we'll drown him in this puddle pretty much. And as I've done that, I've looked down at the time and it was like 12.01, and I'm just like, fuck a Merry Christmas cunt. And he just stares at me blankly, he's just like, oh fuck. But actually, while this was going on, I forgot about this, was two of those dudes have jumped out of the car to jump in to help him, and the guy I was with has just pulled out his his gun and just want to get back in the fucking car. And they've gone, right oh no worries, and they've decided oh, we don't want to borrow this, and they've jumped back in the car and just sat in there patiently and waited. Um, but like if they jumped in, we would have been in real trouble.

SPEAKER_04 1:54:59

Man, fucking good call. Yeah, that's what that thing there is there for. Oh, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:03

And I think this was probably before the time of Tasers. Yeah. Or it was around the the time of Tasers.

SPEAKER_04 1:55:07

Fuck, what's Taser gonna do with two people?

SPEAKER_02 1:55:09

Bad dudes like that as well. You know, like that's it. And with guys like that, they're super friendly, you know, when you deal with them, they're friendly, but when they turn it on, it's on. That's it.

SPEAKER_04 1:55:17

And they're fucking friendly when there's a glock in their face, too. Yeah, yeah. Get back in the car, cunt, yeah, sit down and shut the fuck up.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:22

Yeah, and it'll basically what it was like, and I I didn't realise at the time, but I probably had concussion.

SPEAKER_01 1:55:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:28

I probably had been flash knocked out or something as I was standing there. It was a good whack. Yeah. Had a hole in my lip, and um, which I didn't know about, but I went back to the station afterwards to do the paperwork, and everyone's just like, go to hospital, you dickhead. I'm like, nah, man, I'm sweet, don't worry about it. I'm doing this paperwork, he's going to jail, whatever. I go take a drink out of my drink bottle, I take a swig, and water just starts spurting out of my lip, a hole in my lip, all over the floor. I was like, ah shit, maybe I should go to hospital. So I ended up going to hospital. He went to the hospital as well at the same time and basically spent two hours at the hospital getting stitches. And um, he was across from me, handcuffed to the bed, spit and blood at all the nurses, carrying on, just just carrying on a massive treat. Like, anyway, yeah. I I went back, knocked off, went straight to the boys' house and got on the beers, and then just went out every day for like six days because my mate from London was here, and then just got on it every day, and I didn't really think anything of it at the time, but as time goes went on, I was like, Oh, definitely got a few of me anger issues from that, yeah. Um, and he he got charged with kind of a serious offence at the time, um, and like we got statements off all the doctors and everything like that, and um I I have a bit of a bugaboo about it actually because um when it went to court, this what we charged him with had a mandatory minimum sentence of three years because I was on duty, yeah, the injuries he'd caused, uh, etc. And what we've charged him with. And um, like the DP, it went to the DPP because it was a more serious offence, which then would have meant it went to district court for sentencing, which then would have meant he got a higher sentence. Um what ended up happening with it is they've knocked it down to an actual bodily harm. And like I've still got scars and everything from it. I've got scar tissue in my mouth, almost need to get surgery to get the scar tissue removed because I kept biting hole, biting the lip and it kept reopening and stuff. And anyway, a big part of it for me was like I'm the victim of the crime, right? I got punched in the mouth. Like they need me to say I agree to them dropping the charges, and they called me, and I said, No, screw that, like this guy deserves a whack, you know? Very well known, and then um they ended up dropping it anyway. And I was like, well, how can they do that? Because don't I need to give them permission to drop it because I'm the victim. And this guy, I think he got like time served, plus a couple of weeks of jail for it, and then so he got out like a month later or something, after it went to court, and he wasn't in it might have been like eight months or something, like then he went on a string of armed robberies while on parole, whilst he was armed with a shotgun. And putting a shotgun in people's faces and stuff. And like, if that charge never got dropped, it wouldn't have happened. He should have been in jail.

SPEAKER_04 1:59:08

Well, exactly right, yeah. Those further crimes wouldn't have happened. But instead he's out doing armed robberies.

SPEAKER_02 1:59:12

You know, you got six years or he got a long time for the armed robberies, but still, how many victims of crime is that? Where it should never have happened, you know. I always had an issue with that, and it's not a it wasn't about me getting punched in the face. I didn't really care about getting punched in the face. It was the fact that like this is the opportunity to put him away for a decent whack, and you've done a dodgy justice system, you know. And look, I don't care if I'm the victim per se. Like it's part of the job, you know. At some point you're gonna get punched in the mouth. Um but all those other victims should not have, yeah, exactly. And they should never have been a victim of an armed robbery, you know. Fuck yeah, so anyway.

SPEAKER_04 2:00:00

Say it again, the just where they get these licenses from, they must get them from the Coco Pops fucking jar.

SPEAKER_02 2:00:06

Or I don't really ever have too many gripes, to be honest, but that's always pissed me off because I'm like it it annoys me when it affects other people. Yeah. You know, I I was in the police, I liked helping people. I was from Newcastle, part of the community, I liked helping my community. And then that's all these people that should never have had a gun waved in their face, you know, if it was my family.

SPEAKER_04 2:00:32

I'm sure it caused fucking trauma on some of those people. Exactly. Yeah, mate, we could talk ages on the just system, but again, it's not the first, it's not the last, and it's continuing still to happen. However, moving forward, mate, July 2013, this is where it all changes for you medically.

SPEAKER_02 2:00:50

Yeah, well, before that, I don't know, is it February 2013?

SPEAKER_04 2:00:54

February. Oh, yeah, sorry, you did.

SPEAKER_02 2:00:56

Yeah, yeah, so Christmas, I've got the stitches, got the stitches out. And like since getting back from Europe, it was like a string of things, right? And I started to get a little bit like gut issues going on, but I wasn't paying attention to it so much. But um a few issues, ended up in the hospital a couple of times, then February went to that murder. Um Brown Street, Newcastle. Yeah, yeah. And the reason I remember the date, I'll tell at the end, but um I was on a truck with one girl, um, there was another two on this truck, and then our supervisor, and I think we were out at like Broadmin O'Macca's around then, and we just got this weird there was a noise complaint. Someone's called up and said, Oh, I don't know what's going on next door, but there's like some weird noises coming from there. I'm not sure what it is. Blah blah blah, but I think police should go around there. So we got called, and like it wasn't an important job on the system, it was just like a casual job. So we were kind of heading there, it's probably like three in the morning or something. Slowly, but like we're on our way there, there wasn't any traffic or anything, and um I was like, I just got like the the creeps over it, you know, and we happened to like this car did this thing in front of us. Well, that was really weird. So we pulled this car over, and it was this guy just got in a domestic with his his partner, and I was talking to him, and as he's I'm talking to him, the job we're going to has like popped into my head. I'm like, fuck, this bike's just killed his missus. But it wasn't him that had killed his missus, it just happened that just put the thought into my head. Fuck, this job's on, kind of thing, and so we didn't let him leave, and then um like 30 seconds later, this guy's rang up from the house and said, I've just killed my partner, and so we're like, shit. So we've gone fucking punched it there, um, got there, and with Brown Street, the units, it was 16 of 18 and eight or 18 of 16, and sometimes on the system they get the units mixed up, so we didn't know which one it was. So we've all got there at the same time, essentially. And my partner and the other guy's partner have gone down to the bottom one, and I've gone, uh, I think it's the top one. So me and my other mate and the supervisor have gone up to the top one. Found the guy standing out the front in his underwear. Uh, he was a Chinese national. Um, and essentially he's standing at the front door, he's just had a shower, he's still got blood all over his, like over his face and all over his hands and stuff. And he's like, I've just killed my partner. Um this isn't verbatim, but um we're like where where the fuck is she? Like, and he's like, She's inside, she's inside, and we've all kind of gone to go inside, and I've I've I don't know, it's just one of those things where I've gone, well, they're going in. Do I really need to go in there if she's already dead, you know? And I saw her inside and I was like, Well, there's there's blood inside, I can see it. So I kind of looked, I don't know, it's weird. I just had like a conscious decision, like maybe just don't go into this one. This might not be one you come back from because of all the shit that I'd already had going on. And so I stayed out and I arrested this guy, essentially. But we didn't know where the knife was at the time. So I started strip searching him, strip searching him, where's the fucking knife? Where's the knife? And he's like, Oh, it's stuck in her neck. I'm like, what do you mean it's stuck in her neck? He's like, Well, I'll stabbing her, basically, and it got stuck in her neck bone. So the knife, I think it could have been a butcher knife, I don't know. So they've gone back in and found the knife and it was stuck in her neck. So the two guys have gone in, the guy and the supervisor, and then come back out white as ghosts. And I'm like, fuck, yeah. Like she's obviously dead. Um, and then we've arrested the guy. Um he had cuts all over his hands, like defensive wounds, per se, I would say, and then I've got to stop saying per se, it's annoying the shit out of me. Um I've taken him up to the hospital in handcuffs because he had some deep cuts on his fingers. So we've gone up to the martyr and uh was up there for a few hours with him at the martyr while he was getting treatment, and he was Chinese, he spoke English, but he kind of pretended like he didn't speak good English. Um, but they were asking him like how he got his the wounds in his hands, and he was telling them like I should try to bite my fingers off or something, like you know, so she was like, while he's trying to kill her, like she's trying to bite his fingers off. And then I think he had one from like the knife where his hand slipped on the knife and he's cut his hand open and stuff like that. So yeah, spent a few hours up there with him, and then um yeah, gone back and finished my shift. D's obviously the detectives are involved and they've done everything, and then we sort of went on days off after that. And I I think like like you'd have to Google it, but I think she was stabbed like 70 times or something. And from what I understand, is um she was working here as a nurse or a doctor or something in Australi in Australia, in Newcastle. He was a lawyer or something along those lines in China. He's flown over to see her, and then has killed her that day or the next day. W I don't know the full story to it, but essentially that's what's happened. I'd be very surprised if he's alive today. I think there's a chance he got sent back to China. Um but we went on days off after this, and like yeah, it was a big thing for me, but it wasn't a huge thing for me because I didn't go running into the house, you know, like but still significant enough for me. But the people that did go running into the house, who I'm still friends with, you know, like obviously that's affected them. Like um, and out of all of us that were there, only one of them's still at work, like at the moment. But um there's a bit of an issue with all this, is like we've gone to that incident, like no one called us and asked us if we're okay. Which I don't know who that falls on. Like, is it but surely our boss. Just your boss, yeah. Someone would ring us.

SPEAKER_04 2:07:55

Have been in the job for how long? 20, 30 years?

SPEAKER_02 2:07:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:07:58

Hey Ben, how you doing, mate? I know you've just gone to this job. Yeah. Hey, how yeah? Yeah, mate, just we're here.

SPEAKER_02 2:08:04

Yeah. So nothing until and I didn't really give a fuck at the time, you know. I just went out and went out with the boys, you know. Like, but the people I I was with did. And like the issue was raised, and so our association rep from mem I'm going off memory here. I'm pretty sure this is what happened, has got on the association and has gone, like, what the hell's going on here? Like, these people have seen this person stabbed at F, like, and you haven't even no one's called them and asked them if they're okay. Like, they're not okay. Blah blah blah. And then it's still after that, it still took three and a half weeks from the course, and then they didn't call us at home or anything like that. They called us when we're on changeover, like coming into night shift at like five past six or something. And they spoke to obviously uh the supervisor I was working with, and then she was my team supervisor, so she's like coming in and talking to you. And I'm a busy guy, I'm doing paperwork, or I'm getting ready to go out on the road, jobs are going off. He's like, I'm just ringing to see if you're okay. And I'm like, Well, no, I'm not okay. It's too fucking late now. Like, it's been three and a half weeks. Why didn't you call me three and a half weeks ago? You know, and that was the end of our conversation, really, and I just sort of got on with things. Um that's another thing where I'm like, I don't really care for myself, but you know, my friends are affected by it. Like, you know, and it affects them. Like, why didn't you call and see if they're all right? Like, they're not okay. They just saw some girl that's been stabbed 70 times.

SPEAKER_04 2:09:46

Anyway, mate, I get it, I get it. Yeah, I get it. And again, I've had multiple cops on, and it's been there's multiple scenarios like this where it's played out like that, where they're it's just a phone call from your your sergeant or your sip, or whoever. Anyone, just not even an Are you okay? Hey mate, uh you need anything? What's uh all good? Yep, sweet. Yeah, mate, yeah, yeah, thank you for the same.

SPEAKER_02 2:10:10

And saying that going back, like I got punched in the mouth like three months before. I woke up the next day and I had like 20 or 30 missed calls, and the boss at the time had called me and uh I spoke to him and I was like, he's like, Oh, you got are you okay? And I said, Dude, it's just a punch in the mouth. Like, don't worry about you know, like I would expect someone called me if I went to that murder. Yeah, I wouldn't expect someone to call me if I just got punched in the mouth, you know. Yeah, um, yeah, it's just one of those things, you know.

SPEAKER_04 2:10:43

Just checking in on your troops, mate.

SPEAKER_02 2:10:45

That's yeah, and I I I didn't really hold that personally, but I I feel like they could have held that personally, you know. Especially I I believe one of the it might have been one of their first shifts back in GDs. Yeah. They'd been off the road for so long, that was their first shift back, you know. Like it's a big job, it doesn't happen every day.

SPEAKER_04 2:11:06

Not at all. Yeah, not at all. Like I spoke about early 2013, this is where you start running to a bit of a medical issue.

SPEAKER_02 2:11:12

Yeah, I think like looking back now, that that had a lot to do with it. Like all I had all these strings of big, like really big jobs going on, and I got back from Europe and I wasn't really focusing on my body. I was just going out and like burning the candle at both ends, which I'd already been doing for a few years, but it all started to come back. I started developing like uh like gut issues. Uh I had a few incidents where I didn't know at the time, but I was having panic attacks at work. I thought I was having a heart attack. Um and then uh had just my health just went downhill pretty quickly, lost a ton of weight, lost like I think in total over over those years 17 kilos or something. And like right now, if you're looking at me right now, I was probably at my worst, I was like 15 kilos less than what I am now. Like, but it it all sort of started in 2013. I was still working the truck while this was going on, but started going to hospital and then nothing would happen. Went to a specialist, nothing would happen. And then they sort of put it back on, they just kept putting it back onto stress, and and I didn't really feel that stress at the time. Like I wasn't acknowledging it, but obviously I was. Um but yes, I started developing these gut issues and gut problems, and then eventually that became chronic. I got really sick, lost all that weight, um, end up getting my gallbladder removed as part of it, thinking it would help, didn't help, lost more weight, um, ended up on painkillers, like a lot of painkillers, because they're like I couldn't eat because I was in too much pain and essentially I was like anorexic, but like out of fear of eating because of the pain. Like I wasn't like, oh I'm I'm fat. Like it was like I'm too scared to eat because when I eat, I'm in ten out of ten pain four days or week. You know. So I got to the point where I was like, I can't I'm cutting out all these different types of foods, can't eat that, can't eat that. So I got to the point where I was barely eating at all. I was fasting for four days a week and stuff like that. And having to take painkillers just so I could eat. And it just snowballed. Yeah. I've still got it today. I've still got chronic pain and gut issues from it today. But yeah, it all sort of started around early 2013.

SPEAKER_04 2:13:49

Yeah. Any diagnosis? Obviously part of, you know, stress can not stress can do some funny things.

SPEAKER_02 2:13:59

I had some major issues with doctors. And obviously the alcohol. Yeah, the alcohol, yeah. I had some major issues with doctors throughout. And I kind of got like flick past along the way to multiple different doctors. And I've been given a few different maybes. We think it could be this, or we believe it's this, but no definite this is what it is, kind of thing. And they're all different ideas, you know. But essentially what the idea was like what I've tentatively been diagnosed with is like a it's directly linked to my PTSD and stress, and then it's setting off gut issues. Yeah. Whether it's a miss signalling from my gut to my brain, or my brain to my gut, or other things like that, or but it's directly been linked to my PTSD and stress.

SPEAKER_04 2:14:53

Yeah. No, I've I've uh heard of this case a few times.

SPEAKER_02 2:14:56

Yeah, and it's a bit of a roundabout. Oh actually, you know, Gordon Ryan, the jujitsu guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. His is very similar to mine, but he's from antibiotics and stuff. But he's like, I don't really have a clear answer, it's all like I think he's got a clear answer now. But it's oh you've got a sore tummy, you know? Yeah. And there's no real clear I think it took him a while to find the diagnosis and stuff, but it was like that, it's like a roundabout. Like my stress will set off gut issues. But I could have gut issues not related, and then that will set off my PTSD. Yeah. And it's like you're stuck on this roundabout. Yeah. And it just sort of, you know, unless you try and break the roundabout, um, it just will snowball. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:15:47

Yeah, right, mate. So from there you obviously, you know, you start to feel better, get better 2014, then you move back to tag again.

SPEAKER_02 2:15:54

Yeah, move back to tag, and I I wouldn't say I felt better. I said from 2013 till about 2016, I gradually just got worse and worse.

SPEAKER_04 2:16:02

Oh, did you?

SPEAKER_02 2:16:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:16:03

You just masked it by stopped drinking though?

SPEAKER_02 2:16:06

Yeah, yeah, I'd stopped drinking. So part of it was 2013. I went, this isn't helping. Um, I've got to get rid of it. And I just woke up one day and I was like, nah, no more. And I I like I I might have one midi beer every now and then, yeah. But I basically I don't drink at all. And um I was just like, it I there's no way I could do it. Like it I felt like it was put me in a grave if I if I was gonna keep drinking and stuff. Um so it wasn't really an option for me. I just woke up one day and I was just like, no, no more. So which I think just stopped the progression for a little while. But yeah, gradually got worse and worse like over the years, yeah. And I went, yeah, went back to tag 2014.

SPEAKER_04 2:16:55

So 2014, back to tag, just getting back to normal life of tag outside of the GD stuff, so more like you spoke about earlier, targeted uh stuff with people. Uh there is obviously a a bunch of jobs you've done here. Yeah. Um but I want to just want to move forward to 2015-16, which is where kind of the PTSD is and like you're still going through your medical stuff as well, so it was all accumulation of fucking everything.

SPEAKER_02 2:17:23

Massive medical stuff as well. And like what had happened is um I don't know if I wrote this on there, the hanging.

SPEAKER_04 2:17:31

That's what I'm trying to allude to now, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:17:33

So what had happened was we were on day shift and we were intact, and this lady had been arrested on night on night work for a domestic, and she got released that morning like 6 or 7 a.m. or something, like real early. And she's gone, left the station, and's gone up, fuck this, I'm gonna go kill myself. So she's gone up and broken into a house and stolen a chain from the garage to hang herself, and we don't know that. We just got called to oh, there's a lady breaking into this house. Um, she's in the back shed. So we're like, let's go, because we were the proactive team. We're like, let's go get her. And there were three of us in the car. I remember as we've driven up, um she was on the fence under a tree, and so what had happened is and I didn't know this at the time, is she'd already tried to hang herself and was on the fence. She didn't fall, she's landing on the fence and was just sitting on the fence. And she was, and I remember my mate going, Fuck, she's hanging. And I've gone, oh shit. And I was in the front, I think he was driving or in the back. So I've jumped out of the car and legged it straight to her. And when I've gone up there, she was like fully purple. So I've like, I thought she was dead. So I've like walked up real slowly, going, Oh fuck, she's dead. Try not to push off the fence. And straight away she's like woken up like a zombie and gone, get the fuck away from me, or I'm gonna jump. And I was already, it was too late. I was like, no, I'm not, like, too late. Like, and so she's just jumped off the fence. And so she already had the chain tied around her neck, which is tied around a tree. And she's jumped off the fence to hang herself. And probably what the fence would have been like, I don't know, what, six foot high, six foot too high, like as high as me, kind of thing.

SPEAKER_04 2:19:33

1.8, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:19:34

Whatever it is, like an average fence. And I've launched over this fence and landed on my ribs on the fence and caught her, like before she sort of snapped her neck, and I'm holding her, but she was on the other side of the fence, so no one else could see. So I'm going to me, mate, get over the fucking fence, get over the fucking fence. And um, he's jumped over the fence and grabbed her legs, so he's holding her up, so then I could climb on. I've got the chain and wrapped got unwrapped the chain from around her neck and got her down, but essentially she'd hung herself and she was out. Um, but she hadn't broken her neck. Um, so I think I've saved her from doing that, like stopped her from breaking her neck, but she was unconscious. Um so we've jumped over the fence and we've started doing we're about to start doing CPR, but I think I've given her a good couple of chest rubs or something, or or I've given her a whack in the chest, and she's come to like sort of come to, took a massive gasp, and then and then sort of started breathing again because she was unconscious not breathing. Um and then we've rolled her over into the recovery, and she was like very sporadically breathing. But the ambows would had happened to be just around the corner. They'd just left the motor, and this was at Waratah. So we knew they were c coming, so we didn't have to do too much. But I remember the boss coming in and kicking out every fence, it was one of those colourbond fences, kicking out all the fence palings so the ambows could get in. Um, so essentially, yeah, saved a life. Ambows turned up, taking her to the hospital. Um then later that night, I think she did the runner from the hospital, tried to kill herself again, but someone else has like got her before she could. So she was pretty intent on killing herself.

unknown 2:21:34

Fuck.

SPEAKER_02 2:21:34

But yeah, like saved a life. And and from that, I remember going back and I had a full-blown panic attack. And I was like, the first time where I'm like, oh, I'm having a panic attack. Actually, the ambos turned up and they said, Are you two alright? And I said, No, I'm not, I need a Valium. And he laughed at me and I said, I'm not joking, I need a Valium, I'm having a freaking panic attack. And he kind of still thought I was joking, and they got in the ambos and driven off, and I was like, No, I'm not okay. And um anyway, the show goes on back to work, do your thing, work a full shift, and just go back to chasing baddies, but uh like not long after that, I had like three months off because my partner at the time had spinal surgery, and I remember noticing at the time because I had a uh discussion with one of my mates who's not a cop, and he was having issues with depression, and he was like, I can't really approach anyone about it. Like, he's like, I can't really just come to you because he's like, Everyone's got their own issues, you know. And he's like, I can't just come to you and go like I'm having all these issues, blah blah blah. Because he's like, You're dealing with all this other shit, like you've got all your health issues, you've got all this stuff going on at work, and um, he's like, You're way worse than me, you got like way more dramas than me. But I felt fine at the time, and then like this is just before that happened, and I was like, Yeah, but that's not true because I'm happy, like I've got a good relationship, I live in my house, I'm enjoying my work. So I'm like, everyone is different, like you know, just because you're not in my circumstances doesn't mean that you're not struggling more than me, you know. I remember thinking that, and then anyway, this happened, and then I went off on these months off, and it's the first time where I've gone, fuck. I'm swearing a lot, but anyway, I think I've got depression, like I feel depressed, and it was just after this happened, and it's the first time where I've gone, my health was getting quite bad, but I've taken these three months off uh to look at look after my partner, and I've gone to her, like I think I need to address this, like um, because it was like the mental health was now starting to creep in that I was acknowledging and was affecting my life, you know. And so I said, I think I need to take this time to start addressing that, which I started like really focusing on trying to get my health better, but I still saw it as my physical health with my gut was the driver of my mental health, and like I know this stuff affected me, but I was like, I need to fix my gut health to fix my mental health, which that probably wasn't the way to go. It should have been the other way around. I need to fix my mental health to relax so then my gut can heal. So I started going full full in on going to doctors and trying to get my gut better, and and that was like sort of like not a good thing for me because I went I went all in on it, and that really destroyed my mental health because I started getting fucked around by all the doctors and just passed on to this one, to that one, oh we don't know, it's all in your head, all this kind of shit, like and I my health got worse, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:25:22

Yeah. That uh that hanging, did that bring up trauma for me or childhood?

SPEAKER_02 2:25:30

I didn't notice it at the time, but now I it I reacted really bad to that hanging, and that's one of the one thing where I went, that's something I'm never gonna come back from. That's gonna stick with me forever. Um still to this day I talk and think about it. So and I knew, I was like, okay, all these people I've worked with have PTSD. Blah blah blah. At that time, I was like, okay, I I know what PTSD is now. And as soon as that happened, I was like, right, it's happened.

SPEAKER_04 2:26:05

Because you can see it in the other some of the other offices.

SPEAKER_02 2:26:07

Yeah, a lot of a lot of my friends from work who were older, because I joined when I was young, all left just prior to that, you know. And I was like, ah, you know, it's gonna happen eventually, but um, yeah, that I was like, yep, it's happened, you know. And I didn't know until once I left that how linked that was to what happened to my sister. But obviously, every time I went to a hanging, I was affected by it. Of course, yeah. And uh yeah, yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_04 2:26:39

During this year though, no nominated for policeman of the year. Yeah, which is crazy. Which is yeah, it's bananas. So you're like at the bottom of your mental health, physical health, like literally at the bottom. But obviously, outside of that, in the police world, you're doing your job to an exceptional standard.

SPEAKER_02 2:26:57

Yeah, like I was still going pretty hard. I wasn't drinking anymore, you know. I wasn't going out and I wasn't running them up like and I kind of just committed myself because I had this love-hate thing for work for all that time, you know, and I I always thought at some point I could get a tap on the shoulder and say, All right, mate, it's time for you to go. You know, because I was just always just out doing stupid shit. Yeah. And which I I was at one with that. Like I didn't so that's why I worked the way I worked. I worked super hard, I went hard, because I didn't really see I just didn't see it as a long-term thing, because I thought at any time I could just leave, you know. But at this point when I've stopped drinking is when I was like, oh, okay, now I'm actually getting really passionate about I was passionate in the beginning, but now I'm actually committed to a career in this, you know. And um, but in saying that, like the years preceding that, I feel like I did more in the police, like more good things. Of course, yeah. But it was just just happened that year I got nominated, like, and I don't know who nominated me, it's like random, and I don't know why I was nominated, but don't tell me that. But I know I didn't get I didn't get presented the nomination award because I had too many complaints at the time. They said we can't purple folders. Yeah, too many purple folders, and um they're like, we can't like present you this award publicly, and then you have all these purple folders in the background. I was like, yeah, fair enough. Yeah, but yeah, so nominee for Policeman of the Year. Obviously, didn't win it. There was like a lot more deserving things than me, I believe. Um who won it that year was the uh George Pell investigation, all that kind of stuff. I think who won the Policeman of the Year that year. Yeah, so deservingly so, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:28:54

Jesus, uh yeah, right, mate. So from there, then not nothing gets better. Yeah, having this issues with the medical system, you break up with your missus, yeah, you move to Germany.

SPEAKER_02 2:29:07

Yeah, so like just prior to that, like and I'll go into this because I think it's important for others, but my health got to the point where I was so bad, um I was convinced I would be dead before the end of the year. My partner was convinced I'd be dead before the end of the year. And wherever I died from the issues I was having, but I was getting very like suicidal. Like I wasn't getting to the like suicidal, but I was getting to the point where I'm a very spontaneous person, and I was losing touch with um, I was getting a bit reckless, I'll say. And I got to the point where I was like, they're feeding me full of all these medications, it was making me worse. I never wanted to be on these medications, it was just complete bullshit. I was just getting moved to different doctors, different doctor, oh, this medication is not working to go on this one as well. I was like, I don't even want to be on any of this. Um and then obviously under all that stress, I'm having issues at home, and and like I was getting to the point where I had one day where I was like, you know, anything could happen. And I was like it only was like one bad decision, one bad decision away from something happening, you know. And I like sat down there and I like I really thought about like what am I doing? Like fuck, I can't do this, like this is bullshit. I'm just getting fucked around by all the doctors, like and I went, if I don't do something now, I'm not gonna be here. And I had like that inner discussion with myself, and I was like, I wouldn't say I was suicidal, but I definitely had that discussion internally. And I went to myself, like, no, this is what they want. Like the doctors are just like I felt like I was at work kind of thing. It's like I'm just that trouble patient, you know, that it's just annoying them all the time. Just get rid of him, kind of thing. Like, um, just we'll just flick past him and get rid of him. And I was like, nah, that's what they want. That's what they want to happen, you know. Like, so I was like, nah, I'm not gonna give them the satisfaction of anything like that happening, and it and it's not in my core values as well to for anything like that to happen. But I really had a thought process about it, and I was like, I never really want to the way I felt at the time, I never really want to feel like that ever again, you know. And I made a promise to myself, like, no, it's not gonna happen. If you don't do something now, then you're not gonna be here. And as time the tape matters into your own hands, kind of thing, because the doctors are not gonna fucking help you. No one's gonna help you. You've got to try and get up and help yourself, and then that's what came to me going to Germany. Um, my sister's married to a German fella, and they're all doctors, she's an anthropologist and deals with like natural medications and does like uh heat therapy, like IV therapy. She helps people doing chemo, and she's a psychiatrist, and then her husband's a gastroenterologist. And I messaged my sister that day, and I said, Can you message him and ask him if I can come? She wrote back like almost straight away, yep. I just spoke to him, they said, Come, just don't come just come before these or don't come before these dates, which was like in two weeks' time or something. Which I was like, Okay, great, sweet. So went into work, said, I want to take leave to do this, and they just went straight away, off you go. Like that day you just signed off on it, said off you go. And then me and my partner broke up and off I went, went to Germany. And I think like if I didn't do that, who knows where I'd be, you know. Um and like I was really sick at that time, and uh, I think I was 64 kilos when I got to Germany, and like I'm 188 centimetres, and probably like what almost the same height as you. And um, I was down to 64 kilos when I got to Germany, and um yeah, as soon as I got there, she took one look at me and she's like, your treatment starts right fucking now. And I started from the I landed, got there, and I was straight in, straight with treatment. And I was getting like this heat therapy and IV therapy, and just psych it's the first time I actually dove into psychotherapy and stuff where I actually acknowledged that I've got fucking PTSD and all this kind of shit. And um, like I wouldn't say my health issues got better, but my mental health got like heaps better, you know, and my mental um like fortitude, I would say, got like improved a lot. Uh, and that was like the turning point for me. Like, if I didn't go to Germany, like I don't know if I'd still be here. Like, and I was pretty convinced, well, I would have been like what 20, what years, 2016, um like 20 nine at the time. And I had a in my head, I was like, I had no future past 30. I thought I'd be dead before 30, you know. Um, and then that yeah. Basically that's how it all sort of started me getting into exercise and my diet and all that kind of sh all that kind of stuff. So I I did like maybe four months in Germany, like three or four months. I think I might have stay overstayed the visa. And then I thought about doing more time there and getting an extended visa, but I was there in the middle of winter and I just wanted to come home. So I came home and then um they started it was a leak that heat therapy. I don't know if you remember at the time, but it was what they treated people for Lyme's disease was the same therapy.

SPEAKER_01 2:35:51

Yep, yep.

SPEAKER_02 2:35:51

So everyone was going to Germany to get it because it wasn't legal in Australia. Um in that time I was there, they made it legal in Australia. So when I've come back, I've gone to Gulf Coast, and I started um six weeks of that in the Gold Coast, so I continued on with the therapy when I came back to Australia. I took about six months off work and did all that, maybe a bit less than six months, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:36:22

So in that six months, you like you said, you your gut health is is on the incline, but your mental health got a lot better.

SPEAKER_02 2:36:31

Well, mental health got a lot better. Um still struggling with gut health, but I'd started eating like a proper I did like a certain diet when I was in Germany and stuff like that. So I started going down that path of like learning what I can and can't eat and training super hard. I put on some weight, um, but I was on restricted duties like for a lot of that time, so and it was a big recovery, man, because like I say, like the mental health almost got me, but the physical health, like when I say like I thought I was gonna be dead by the end of the year, like I'm still pretty convinced, like that's where I was going. Like I I was struggling to walk the end of the driveway some days, and it just would have been a matter of time where something would have happened, you know. So it was a I had to rebuild my whole body, and it was like a really long process, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:37:24

When when do you get back on the on the tools?

SPEAKER_02 2:37:27

On the tools. So between probably 2017 and um 2019, we got a new boss, and I started this me and another girl that was on restricted duties. We started this bit of a squad which I'd started down at Gosford before, and we were investigating like all the payway frauds. So we're doing like all the payway frauds where your house would get broken into, and um they'd use your cards and stuff because it was kind of a bit of a black hole, like it was there's a lot of paperwork involved, so GDs didn't have enough time to follow up on it, then there was a lot more crime going on, so the tag guys didn't have enough time to follow up on it either. So it kind of all went to a black hole. So we started that group, and I was doing that for two years, and like we'll catch I was catching more guys in that squad from the office than what I was out in the road because the breaking in it would happen straight away, I'd be on it, I'd go and get all the footage, and because I knew everyone, I was like, Oh, that's so-and-so. That's so-and-so. Yeah, and I'd like to message the group chat of like or message everyone that was working on the tag crew and be like, if you see this bloke, grab him for me. They'd see him, they'd grab him, and then in he goes, and it's like it's almost like a digital fingerprint, you know, like his digital fingerprints popped up on this card and we've grabbed him. So I was doing that for two years and then um like training real hard like to try and get back to full duties. Because this is really slow process, real frustrating process too, because like the bosses and everyone's going like, What's taking so long? I was like, I'm doing my best, man. Like, and we got new bosses too, so they didn't know how sick I was before, yeah. They only knew me as that version. So where is before that we had um Johnny Groton and he was there when I was good and saw the progression of me getting sick, so he was really good with me, and he went into bat for me when I went off, kind of looked after me to help me get back to work. But once we got the new ones, they didn't know, so they're like pushing me like hurry up or we're gonna get rid of you, basically. Um, and they it got to that point where I got had like an ultimatum like you're either going on full-time restricted duties in Sydney, or you're coming back full-time or you're leaving. And I was like, Well, I'm coming back. They forced my hand and I came back. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:39:53

So you get back to yeah, get back to what's uh somewhat fully fit. Uh you got really fit, didn't you?

SPEAKER_02 2:40:00

I was super fit, super strong, and um my my mental health was good, but um I knew that it wasn't a long-term thing, and that eventually something was gonna happen. Because that that that it's like kind of like your bubble's being burst, you know? You live in this bit of a lala land, it's not gonna happen to me. And then once you get the PTSD and you start diving into psychology and stuff, and you learn about PTSD, you know that it's gonna happen again, you know. Yeah, so it was one of those things you can't come back from that, you can't just ignore it out uh anymore. Yeah, it's one of those things where I was like, ah, well, it's gonna happen again at some point. I just wanted to like I was kind of forced out in 2017 because of my body and it wasn't on my terms, and I kind of just wanted to come back and I wanted to leave on my own terms, you know. So I wanted to be at one with me leaving. I didn't want to just get forced out because I feel like it's something I would think about forever if I just got kind of forced out. So I wanted to come back and you know, at least have another crack and leave when I wanted to leave, you know.

SPEAKER_04 2:41:11

Yeah, so eventually 19 you go back to GDs, yeah, back on the truck. Back on the truck, yeah. And then the world threw a fucking boomerang or curveball, I should say COVID happens, which obviously in turn made the police a lot busier. Yeah, crazy doing some of the gayest things out there possible too. Making people wear masks.

SPEAKER_02 2:41:31

A hundred jobs a day. Yeah. Yeah. Just your neighbor topping on you. Madness.

SPEAKER_04 2:41:36

Oh, can't believe can't believe we fell for that shit.

SPEAKER_02 2:41:40

And it really uh I it affected me personally too. Of course. Because eventually I had to move overseas.

SPEAKER_04 2:41:47

Well, we'll talk about that, yeah. So this is where you break down again.

SPEAKER_02 2:41:50

Like Yeah, so I know I didn't break down, but I just had some um I won't go too deep into it, but I had some personal issues and essentially I had to move overseas for a few months. Uh so I did most of I did all of 2020 in GDs. Then I went to like the D domestic violence enforcement team for a little bit. Uh, then eventually I got given leave to be able to go overseas for a few months. And um, when I went over, I wasn't really sure if I was coming back, to be honest, because I didn't know what was gonna happen in the world. Um went to Hong Kong. Went to Hong Kong, yeah. Spent all my long service leave, all my savings. Nice place, good place, and like I thought about getting a job there as a teacher's aide, and I had a few interviews and stuff while I was there. I just went, nah, screw that. I'm just gonna go to the gym every day. So I just went to the gym every day and like just trained every day and got super fit, and um I was still getting paid my long service and had the house rented out, so I was getting rent. Um and essentially while I was there, the borders reopened because I didn't know when I when I ran out of leave, I didn't know what I was gonna do. I was probably gonna have to resign. Um, but I didn't really want to, and then I wasn't loving Hong Kong because there's like thousands of people in the street at all times where we were living, it's crazy. Oh, it's insane. You go out at 3 a.m. thousands of people walking around in my undies to put the rubbish out, yeah, and then to dodge all these people, and um anyway, the borders reopened, so I was like, ah, okay, I'm coming back. So I came back uh I think December. Yeah. But while I was over there, I kind of went, oh having a few issues like with my anger and stuff. Like I just thought it was like Hong Kong with all the people there. Had a run in with my next door neighbour, um threatened to stab me. So yeah, he threatened to stab me and then attacked me with a um a toilet plunger. I was like, right, bro, calm down. And then I so I came back and I was like, I can't survive over there, like it's too much. And then I went back on the truck as soon as I got back.

SPEAKER_04 2:44:10

So straight back into it. Yeah, straight back into it. Five, six months in Hong Kong.

SPEAKER_02 2:44:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:44:15

And then straight back into domestic violence in Newcastle.

SPEAKER_02 2:44:20

Yeah, and in that time, I felt like the job had completely changed. Because I came back, like I wasn't gone that long, you know. But in the time that I uh had been and gone, like we got a bunch of new people, his people had left, like some people had left I didn't even know had left. I think the cameras came in, um, and a lot of stuff had changed. Yeah, I sort of just come in and I went, I've come back to a different job. Like it just seemed like a completely different job, and I went, oh, I don't really know if I like this anymore. Like I just didn't like it wasn't for me. It's just like Yeah. Going to domestic like we go to domestics all the time, but it's every domestic you're like putting someone in the bin. Like all the time, constantly. And I just went, oh I could just see where it was going, and I was like, oh, I don't think this is for me anymore. And I started having that feeling in the back of my head. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:45:25

During this time, you know, obviously you you're doing multiple jobs here and there.

SPEAKER_11 2:45:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:45:32

Blake with a knife threatened to kill you, and uh a few a few other jobs there, but January 2022.

SPEAKER_02 2:45:39

Yeah. Uh December. December.

SPEAKER_04 2:45:42

Sorry, December 21 was the knife incident.

SPEAKER_02 2:45:44

Yeah, and December 22 is when I left.

SPEAKER_04 2:45:47

Yeah, I'm sorry, I'm talking about uh January 22. Oh, right. Yeah. Sorry, when your mate, colleague.

SPEAKER_02 2:45:53

Yes, committed suicide. So I'll go into the one before that with the got the guy with the knife. Because so what happened was it I think it was Box and Day. And it was just like the typical mental health job, you know. Um, he's threatened to kill himself, whatever. This guy didn't really have any history. Uh, he wasn't like in psychosis or anything. I think he had like an intellectual disability or maybe. And his sister was an Amber. So like they were on side and we got there and it was pretty casual, and like he was talking through the window and he'd was threatening to stab himself, but I think he'd also threatened to stab her, maybe as well. So anyway, we were like, he's in his room, we didn't want him to have access to knives in the kitchen. So we kind of like um what like contained to negotiate him out, basically. But we sort of contained b between the kitchen and the front door. So if he ran out, we get him before he got to the knives, and I just I just had I just I was just feeling uneasy about it like the entire time. I was like, well, what if this fucker's already got a knife? Like, and I just had that in the back of my head. And anyway, he was talking through the window to my colleagues at the front, and then she goes like um, like real cash, oh it's alright, like um the ambassador'll be here soon, blah blah blah. And I could hear just the tone in his voice completely change, and he said, Oh, that's alright, I'll fucking gut them too once I'm done with you. And as soon as he said it, I could just pick up this a change in the tone, and I've gone, fuck. And before I could like that thought had come through my head, like, we gotta get out of here. Like, because I was like, He's got it, he's got something in there. He's come charging out with a knife, like big uh cut uh big uh kitchen knife, and he was like, I don't know if you know Game of Thrones. Do you know Game of Thrones?

SPEAKER_04 2:48:04

I know, but I've never seen it.

SPEAKER_02 2:48:05

Anyway, well he's built like you essentially, but probably bigger, like big dude, man, like and gonna like coming out to kill us, basically, and I've gone, fuck, and I've completely shit myself. Like, I was the definition of being scared stiff, and I've kind of backed into the doorway, and what what had happened just before it, I was thinking to myself, my partner had the taser, and I don't believe in tasers because they don't always work. And where he was standing, I was like, Oh, I should have the taser because I got a better shot at him, but at the same time, I was like, Taser's not gonna stop him, he's too close to me. Um, and that was kind of going through my head as he sort of said all that, and I've gone, fuck, and he's come charging out the door. So I've tried to grab the taser, and I don't know exactly if this happened, or it's just I've played out the thing in my brain, but I backed into the doorway to go, fuck, I'm gonna shoot this guy, and I think he's come towards us and realised there's two cops in the kitchen, I don't think he knew we were there, and so he's turned around and run out the front door, and my partner's gone and run out after him, and I've kind of grabbed him and pushed him into the wall and stopped him and gone like no fucking stop. And um, like all this is on the taser cam and stuff, and I'll most run out and I've yelled out like watch out, it was fucking knife, and um I gave it a couple of seconds. I expected okay, he's run out there, there's three cops out there, they're he's dead, they're gonna shoot him. And then no gunshots, so we've gone running out, and he's halfway up the street. We've chased him, he sort of we had a standoff with him, or with the other guy with, and he's eventually dropped the knife, and we've uh handcuffed him and got him and shipped him off to the hospital. But like, I reacted really bad to it, and I was like, I'm usually like a generally a pretty good operator in that sense where I'll act on something and I was scared stiff and like kind of messed with my like my conscience, a bit of like that guilty survivor kind of thing, you know? And I was like, I should have killed that guy, you know. Like, if I did my job properly, I probably would have shot him, you know. But fortunately I didn't, and he survived and no one got hurt. But you don't see it that way, you see like I should have done my job properly because everyone else's life was at risk because I fucked up. And that sort of rested on my conscience for a while, but like I remember and I was going from my head, why did I grab that guy and throw and like stop him from running out the door? Like, why did I do that? And I had no idea why I did it. I felt really guilty about it. And I went home that night, I couldn't sleep, and as I went to drift off to sleep, it's gone. It's just come into my head. Oh, you've stopped him to stop the crossfire. Like I've stopped him from running out into the crossfire because I was convinced that they were just gonna kill, like shoot him and kill him, and he would have ran straight out into the crossfire, and my subconscious has just like stopped him from running down the hallway out the front door because he would have ran straight in front of him. And I like I didn't think about it at the time, but like that's 100% what I've done.

SPEAKER_01 2:51:40

Like exactly right, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:51:41

Yeah, and I've gone, shit, I didn't even think about that consciously. It was just in my subconscious that I've stopped him, and then I went back to him like that. I was like, dude, I think I know why I did that. And he's like, Yeah, that makes so much sense now. Which got rid of a bit of the guilt, but um I remember like the next night shift, I I was on shift, and we just went to this noise complaint, and it was like this African guy in his garage with his music playing, and he came charging out of the garage with no shirt on, and I completely shit myself again. And I was like, oh, that's weird. I thought, oh, something's not right, you know. And at that moment, I was like, oh, and then that was the beginning. That was I was like, nah, something's happened, and this is where something's actually not right with me. And I was always told myself, as soon as I can't look after someone else, I shouldn't be there, you know. And I that's why I went on restricted in the beginning, because I got to the point where I was like, I'm too sick to look after me mates, so I went on restricted, and I was like, you know, if I get scared stiff and I can't act, then I really shouldn't be here anymore. And I caught that's what sort of started in my head, and then it sort of snowballed in January when my when my colleague like committed suicide. Uh and I'll go into that now, but um, so essentially I didn't really know that he'd left. I knew he was off on Stressly, but I didn't know that he'd left, and we were in the same class too. And he was in Ashworth, he was in Ashworth's class, he was in my first team when I came to Warata, and um He was a fiery, he was cop, he was breeding police dogs, he was doing all this stuff, you know, and he was a super tough guy, like not the smartest guy, you know, like with paperwork and stuff, but like if you were gonna get into the shit and he was in the car with you, you knew you were safe, like you know, and it just it really rocked me because first of all, I was coming in on shift when it happened, it happened like two hours before. So I've come in on shift. As soon as I walked through the front door, I'm sat down and I'm told such and such has just committed suicide. So it's I'm like, fuck. Completely rocked me. And like, you know, one of those people that you would never see doing it. Yeah. But because he's so tough and so stubborn, like, you know, he's tough enough to go through it, you know, and not ask for help. Or I don't know because I wasn't involved in his personal life per se, you know, we were in different parts of life, he was older, I was younger, but we worked together for 15 years. Um, and I wouldn't say like I wasn't friends with him on my days off and stuff, so I don't know exactly what was going on personally, but I never saw that happening, and it really rocked me. And like I was obviously upset, I was on afternoon shift, and then night shift came on, then my team came on, and my team, he used to be on my team, both sides, so he worked at Waratah and he worked at Newcastle, so half of my team had worked with him a lot, so they were all upset. Um you know I've gone across to Newcastle to drop just drop a crook over in the cells, and gone in, and they're all sitting around like nothing's happened, and no one knew about it, and I've just like gone, oh, like you heard about today, obviously, blah blah blah. And no one had heard anything, and they're like, What do you mean? I'm like, oh um Aggs has committed suicide today, and they're like, What no one's told us, and um so obviously I've broken it to a whole nother team of people that didn't even know anything about it. I think the supervisor might have known known, but he was like super upset about it, so I don't know if he mentioned it to anyone. And so everyone got upset and blah blah blah, and I was really pissed off because there's a a duty officer working, like a inspector, like a boss. Like, how is that message not being relayed? That someone that we've worked with for 15 years has just committed suicide at Waratah where we work, you know, and it was his team that was working, and um that really upset me. And anyway, like my friends were friends of him, you know. So like we weren't super close on our days off, but all of my mates were, so they're like I was super upset, you know, and really pissed off about what happened over the whole thing, but like um that was when I was like, okay, this has happened in just December, and now in January, like um he's commit like committed suicide, and I was like, that's it, I'm not playing any games anymore, I'm done, you know. And um, that was like the moment where I've gone, I need to find a way out. Um and I think for a few others that I worked with as well, that was the catalyst for them leaving. And even though they took, like me, another six or twelve months to leave, that was the incident that's gone, nah, we're not doing this anymore. 'Cause every now and then, like you get it's like a game, you know, like it's like cops and robbers, like adult cops and robbers. But every now and then you get a reminder, like a punch in the face or something. Or you know, someone gets run over by a motorbike, or you know, things happen like where someone gets injured or someone gets killed, and you're like, oh shit, this isn't a game, like this is real life. And even if we're not involved, like like you know, the stabbing down at Bondi Mall and all that, we're always like jacked up, like because you that's a it's a reminder, like um, we're not playing a game here, like it's real life, and um, yeah, that was just one of those things where I'm like, well, no, you you're out, like, um no more games, like you've got to go, and that's how it goes for a lot of people. It's like it may not be one particular incident that sets people off, but eventually it's just like no more, you know. Usually it's something with the bosses that sets them off, but yeah, or like you know, some like work gripe or whatever, but it's the means to it, like it's the end point for them. But yeah, so at that moment I was like, I'm done. I just need to find a way out. Um unfortunately I had other personal stuff going on outside of the police, which I kind of needed to be at work for, and I didn't want to leave until that got sorted. Um and so I was just sort of wait biting my time, but I was just getting worse and worse as that time went on, you know. Um, but I knew I knew at that moment that I was I was sort of done. Yeah. That's it. Yeah, and look, you've been there for so long, like it's hard to make that decision to go. And it's like you're addicted to it, you know? Yep. Um, so it's really hard to take the plunge and make it.

SPEAKER_04 2:59:20

But so you leave in December 2020.

SPEAKER_02 2:59:22

Yeah, so for that first incident happened December 2021. It took me till December 22 to leave. And I had a string of things before it where a bit of just like political shit at work, you know. Like I busted my ribs, I got in a fight at like four in the morning or something, and I busted my ribs and on the job, on the job, like with the the camera, I was wearing the camera, cameras like busting my ribs, I thought I broke my ribs, and then anyway, I went around and restricted with that, and then they put me on eight day shifts in a row. Almost like it was a punishment for because they were then short-staffed, even though it probably wasn't, but I took it personally, and then so I went back to my doctor and I was like, no, I'm not doing that. Like, give me some time off. So he my actual usual DP wasn't there. I spoke to a different GP and he was like, Have you actually thought about getting out of there? Because you're obviously ruined, you know. And so I took some time off, and then I was still working on restricted, just while my ribs healed up, and then um just on that.

SPEAKER_04 3:00:28

Who are you wrestling?

SPEAKER_02 3:00:30

Uh, I was wrestling some prostitute in the street, yeah. Some female prostitute. You want to know the story? So essentially she was uh uh should I say it politely? She was sucking some guy's dick on the street. Yeah, okay, for money. And while she was doing that, she's done a little reach around and stolen his wallet out of his pocket while she was giving him uh a blow job. And then done the runner. So he's called us and we've got there, and she's got a lipstick all over her face and what have you. And he's like, We I want my wallet back, but I want her arrested. Like, come on, mate, we're not arresting her for that. Like, you're joking, aren't you? And we sort of appeased him and we got the wallet back, I think, and then um but then she was wanted for like breaking in her or something. So I'm like, damn it, I'm gonna have to arrest her. And so sure enough, she's carried on, got in a mad wrestle with her, and it's always the girls that kick on. Like if they're gonna kick on, the girls always kick on, you know, you're coping scratches and punches and everything. So she was like massively like kicking it on, had to take her to the ground, and I think I've tackled her, and that's how the cameras got me. It's like wrapped around and hit me in the side of the ribs. So I rested her, and then you know. So that's what I got my back up. I'm like, you know, I'm wrestling some chick at 4 a.m. on Islington strip, broken my ribs or busted my ribs, and now I'm getting punished for getting putting on day shifts, and then I tell my soccer mates, and all my mates give me shit about it still. I like every time I get injured, like at soccer, they're like, oh, you know, was that from us or from the prostitute that bashed you or something like that, you know? So I still cop it to this day, and then anyway, so that was like I spent that time unrestricted, kind of contemplating, and um like my brother-in-law had leukemia at the time as well, and he was like really sick, and I was like in that like phase of like I had to quarantine myself because COVID was still going on, so I couldn't even see him because I didn't want to make him sick, like his immune system was like zero, he got a bone marrow transplant and stuff like that, so I couldn't even see him. I saw him like maybe once or twice, but um, while he was getting the transplant, and I was like, I can't even be there for my family, you know. And I was like, I just it's enough's enough. And anyway, I I came back and then got signed off on the first shift back first job. I'm eating my lunch. Can you come and help me with this? Get in a mad wrestle with this dude. Throws me over a uh we got oh, we throw each other both over a a table for a plates, dirty plates, broken plates, we get all cut up, he throws me for a wall, chase him, catch him eventually, and then get cut up all over my hands and stuff, and he's I think his sister has like clawed me from behind, and I'm like, I just can't do this anymore, man. I'm like, I'm done, and then so I booked an appointment with my GP to go, I'm I'm done. Three days, oh, three days later, or like, well, I've got add shingles. I've got the shingles just from the stress, just to add to it, just to add to it, and I was just like, oh, and I ran into Timmy Wilson actually, like two weeks before I quit at Cole's at Charlestown, and he just went, You look like shit. And um I said, Yeah, man, I was telling him all these stories. Actually, it was the day I booked my doctor's appointment, I ran into him, and I said, uh, like this is all happening, I've had enough, blah blah blah. I'm thinking about quitting, like leaving. Um, and he goes, Right, I'm gonna ring you next week, and if you're still there, um I'm coming to pick you up. And then that was that was all I needed, just that little push to go, alright, like someone else from the outside has told me. And like I worked with Timmy forever.

SPEAKER_04 3:04:47

He's a good man.

SPEAKER_02 3:04:48

Like since I started, you know? And um, that was like the bit of a push I needed, and I was like, sweet. And then I I went home and I booked an appointment and uh with my GP. And then I rang my mate and I said, Hey, it was like 10:30, 11 o'clock at night. And he answered, he's like, What's going on? Why are you ringing me? I was like, Oh, I think I'm quitting, eh? He's like, Me too. And I was like, Oh, sweet, I've had that like like uh verification that I'm doing the right thing. I was like, sweet, like, yeah, I'm doing the right thing, you know. And then from there, like, I I was gone like two weeks later. Two weeks, yeah. And it was I was meant to be there a few more days, and it was my birthday, and I was at work, I went to court, uh, I just went to court, everything got like squared away. I had this case that had been gone for years, pretty serious case, uh, where this girl got kidnapped and and and all this kind of stuff, and um it finally got finalised that day, and I went, okay, today's the day. And I I left that day. I I went home actually, and I had a birthday cake sitting there waiting for me. I was like, oh, closure. Like, and the next day was an award ceremony, and they just happened to call me a few days before. They're like, Do you want to get on this award ceremony and get your 15-year medals? And I was like, This is weird. Like, do you know so no, do you know something? And they're like, No, we can get you on if you want. Like, someone's caught in sick. And I think they knew that I was done. And I was like, this is perfect closure, you know. Like, I had my birthday, finalised that court case, went and got all my 15-year medals at the presentation, and then left. That was it. And didn't didn't sort of look back. I was done from there, you know. Like, and I knew like going when I was leaving, I was like, you're not going back. Like, don't even entertain the thought of going back. So I handed all my stuff in and I said, I'm I'm done. Like, don't talk to me. Um, so I didn't give myself that option, like that. I'm gonna go back and have another crack.

SPEAKER_06 3:07:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:07:03

And I left on my own terms, which is what I wanted to do, you know. Um obviously it's still hard to leave, but yeah, of course, something you've done for so long. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:07:13

Institutionalise into the life massively. Yeah, it's not just a job, it's it's uh it's it becomes a lifestyle.

SPEAKER_02 3:07:20

Yeah. Oh, like I still drive down the street now, and I'm like some days I'm like, I could definitely go back and wet my whistle. But I'll know it's not good for you. There's no way I could actually do it and be healthy. But some days I'm like, I've still got it, you know, I've still got it in there somewhere.

SPEAKER_04 3:07:38

Yeah. I've I've spoken about this in the past. I don't know why they don't do a like a part-time system. Keep part-time, you know, like the army reserves, you know. It would definitely help.

SPEAKER_02 3:07:51

There's a lot of broken people there that could stay longer that they wanted to. I don't know if it's the best thing for them, but uh it would also help in a sense of oh you're getting a bit burnt out, maybe take a little bereaver. Yeah. Because when you're burnt out is when you're most susceptible to the the the injury, you know. Um, and that's when you're gonna get that PTSD-based injuries. Um, because you're stressed to the max, like your body and your whole system's like weakened due to stress. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, it would be good. And also, like, I think the Air Force does recruitment for certain roles, you know. Like, it wouldn't I don't know if it would work in the police, like, because you need to actually know what you're doing. But to go straight into like a restricted role, like, I don't know. Because now you gotta you've got to go in, you've got to do your three years, you've got to do your tenure bef before you can go to a specialist role. Like if you want to go to rescue or forensics, stuff like that.

SPEAKER_04 3:08:52

I think there was talk of maybe shortening that for stuff like forensics and that, but I've said earlier that they should do it like the army, where if you want to join the cops, you don't have to do GDs, you can go straight to forensics. Yeah, that's what I meant.

SPEAKER_02 3:09:05

Could they do it with the Air Force? I could become an Intel officer in the Air Force. Exactly right.

SPEAKER_04 3:09:12

You don't have to do You don't have to do the general airforceman or whatever shit. Yeah. Same as cops, you know, there's plenty of cops out there that don't want to be do GDs. They just want to go do forensics.

SPEAKER_02 3:09:22

Yeah, GDs are probably one of the best, but more of a action.

SPEAKER_04 3:09:26

But suits some people, yeah. Some people are just not suited for it.

SPEAKER_02 3:09:29

Some people are like 100% not suited to it, and like they shouldn't even get to the point where they have to go to GDs because it's not safe for them and it's not safe for us. Yeah. You know, and it they should get vetted a lot sooner than that. But unfortunately, some people just don't have it. Like, and that's the way it is. Of course. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:09:51

Hopefully they figure it out one day. But uh back to yourself, mate. Like you're you're out of the police, December 2022. How you go on the next couple of years? Are you uh how's your gut health? What's your plans is the biggest thing.

SPEAKER_02 3:10:04

Well, I didn't realise at the time that I had anger management issues until when I left. Like pretty decent. Like I wasn't like violent or anything, you know, I was just cranky all the time. Get super frustrated with everything. Like it was really pissing me off. And um, I didn't notice until I left because when you're at work, like you get angry, but it's because some dickhead's screaming at you, like, so you scream back at him, and then you get back in the car, you laugh about it, because you're like, Oh, I just screamed at that bike because he's you know, carrying on spitting at me, whatever, threatening me. And you don't actually think, Oh, I got really angry then and I yelled at that bike. Like, you just sort of laugh it off. It wasn't until when I left and I've I started getting angrier just over the littlest things, you know. And I don't think I would get that angry while I was working, because I'd probably get it all out while I was working. Um and I I had this one thing where I was like trying to get a car loan for my car, and the person I was dealing with was just like so incompetent, like so bad, and um I got real angry and like really, really bad. And when I got off the phone, I was just like, holy shit, I think I've got a problem. Like, I think I've got an anger problem, and it kind of just snowballed from there. Like it I had so obviously I went and started dealing with it, and um eventually I've calmed down a lot since then, but yeah, the original sort of year, it's like a massive struggle because like you leave, you have this routine, and then you go from that to doing nothing, but going to doctors, and like I got like a psychologist, a psychiatrist, a GP, independent medical officer and part of the insurance company, maybe a second one, you know, maybe some legal advice. You might be going to physio or personal trainer, you got all this stuff going on, and you're just constantly talking about the same shit over and over. Like, so you can't really. I I don't think it's it's probably they see it as being helpful, but over long term, I don't see that as being helpful. You're just continually revisiting the same sort of stuff, and it just goes on and on and on forever. So um, yeah, I really struggled for the first 12 months and uh like did a little bit of traveling, and um that was something we'd already booked in before I left the police, uh, went over to Europe, and um, this is before all my mountain stuff, and I like the travel was like really good for me, and I've always found that travel helped, you know. And then I had in the back of my mind, because I'd already, as I mentioned at the beginning, like I'd started climbing mountains and I'd started studying mountains, and I'm like, I want to go to Europe and try this challenge, and I wasn't I got back from the p from the trip and I wasn't really improving, and I was just like the whole process was like super slow and super frustrating, and I was just like, when is this gonna end? You know, and I was postponing these mountains because I until I finished all this stuff that I was going through, and I was just like, you know what? I can't just put my life on hold forever, and just like I wasn't in a good place. I was like, I just need to go ahead and do it. So I just went, uh fuck it, I bit the bullet. I just booked, I booked in uh, I don't know if you know Mont Blanc. It's like the tallest mountain in uh the brand. Yeah, well, it's based off this it's a famous mountain, it's the tallest mountain of France and Italy, the tallest mountain in the Alps, and that's the tallest mountain of Western Europe. And it's a dangerous like a lot of people don't own it because it's like this super dangerous crossing, rocks fall down, and what have you. I booked that in and I was shitting myself, you know. And I was like, that's it, it's on. If I book this in, then the trip's on, and I started training for it. Got a I got a hernia fixed, and then I started getting super, super fit, and um and I got pretty fit for it, and uh this is obviously meh, and then I went on and I was at first I was gonna try and break the world record, and I had a bit of there's a bit of stuff around, I couldn't really start in time, and um anyway, I was like, fuck it, I'll just go with it and I'll go as hard as I can. And I was like, in the in reality, like what's the world record gonna achieve? It's just a piece of paper. I just want to know within myself that I can do it, and so I'm gonna have a crack and see if I can do it. And if I choose to come back and finish, I had my sister's wedding in September, so I had to come back for that. So I went over in the July and I started climbing the tallest mountain of every country of Europe and the UK. So with the UK part, they only count uh the tallest mountain of the UK, which is in Scotland, as one, whereas I did England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland. Yeah, so I did that. Um I was climbing, I think, five mountains a week for the first three or four weeks, yeah, first three weeks, and then I sort of slowed down a bit. I got COVID and and then I had the Alps, slowed down with the Alps. But um yeah, I've gone to do Mont Blanc, and then someone died when I was there. We decided to turn around because it was too unsafe for so many rock rocks fallen, and so we turned around out of the groups that went, one of them on the way back down got hit in the head with a rock and killed. So we made the right decision there. So I couldn't finish Mont Blanc, so I've finished the rest of the apps and I've gone home to my sister's wedding, and then so I'm like, oh, I'm gonna save it for the next year. So I've gone back, so that was 2024, and I've gone back 2025 to finish it, which was like last year, and then I've gone, I did all the Balkans all by and I did so most of these I've done solo, so I did all the Balkan solo, and then I did all of Eastern Europe essentially, uh, then all of Scandinavia, which was epic, all that solo, um and I would have finished with Russia and Ukraine, but I just decided not the time. Um and there, like the reason why I'm doing it now, I I came back and I did that. I was like, I'll finish my challenge, but like there's something missing still, and I feel like I need to keep doing this because I made a lot of progression with my mental health and recovery after leaving. Because, like, um when I'm doing intense exercise, like my one, my chronic pain's gone. But also, like had a few things like with my PTSD and stuff, where I'm out there solo, I'm in the middle of freaking nowhere, and things pop into your head when you're under the pump, you know, and like I'm out there pushing it, like it's not easy stuff. You've been like hunting and stuff, like it's not hard. I mean, it's not easy, no, definitely it's very difficult, like yeah, things pop into my head, and like when you're at home, you've got all these uh avoidance techniques like go play the Xbox, go for a walk, go watch TV, go eat some cheeseburgers, go to the pub, like all this kind of shit, you know, to like not address the issue. And like when I'm like out in the middle of friggin' Kosovo or Albania or something, you know, there's no one around, and I can't escape it, you know. There's no one to talk to. I'm out there by myself, so I kind of had to like go through what it is, and like it's like a self-psychology session, yeah. And like you kind of can't avoid it, so you kind of got to deal with it, and I feel like that's helped me heaps, like super tough at the time, had a few teary sessions, um also because my feet hurt, but um, but you know, and then like I get down and I'm like, Oh, I don't really think about that so much anymore because I've kind of been up there and I've struggled with it and I've dealt with it a bit, so that's one less thing I have to worry about, and so when I got fixed, it's like a lifelong uh program, but I decided I screw it. I I had a weekend off and I went to Malaysia and I climbed um Mount Kinabalu, rented the house out on Airbnb. I was like, screw it, I'm gonna go climb Mount Kinnebalu. I've always wanted to do it even before I started mountains. So I went and did that, and I think it was my my 50th country high point, um, being like the tallest point of 50 countries, and I went, oh, that's a pretty good milestone. Maybe the 40th, it might have been the 49th, and it was super cool, and it was super cheap too. Like I did it really cheaply, and I went, Oh, you know, I could just keep this keep doing this, like it's really good for my elf and keep it up. And like also when I'm sitting around, I'm trying I've got something to train for, so I've got something to turn up every day and go to the gym every day, something to do. So I'm like, ah. Okay, I'm just gonna keep going with it. And then I I saw the there's like that hundred country high points challenge, and uh I'm like, oh well I'll commit to that. Um so that's a hundred the tallest point of a hundred countries, and then also within that there's the tallest point of every continent and the tallest volcano every continent. So I was like, oh and a lot of them are the tallest point of countries, so I'm like, oh, if I can try to incorporate that into it as well, that's a sick little idea. It's a massive um like a massive project. I wanted to do it over two years, but um I've gone back and done some study this year, which has slowed me down a bit, but um but yeah, so I just started doing that and I'm just gradually progressing like um lots of higher mountains. I'm like, I don't even know. At some point I might go, oh this isn't for me. Like the high out because I'm about to start, I go to South America in a month, and I'm climbing the tallest mountain of Ecuador, uh, which is the tallest, um it's the closest to the sun, but because it's around the equator, it's meant to be the furthest from the centre of the earth closest to the sun. So, like not technically a meter is the tallest, but also recognized as once the tallest um tallest on earth. And so I'm going to do that. I'm going to do a mountain next to it, which is the tallest actual active volcano. Uh, then I'm going to Bolivia to do the tallest mountain in Bolivia. Um, then I'm going to Chile to do the tallest mountain in Chile, which is the tallest mountain volcano on Earth, and also tallest volcano in South America, and then I'm going to Argentina to do Aconcagua, which is the tallest tallest mountain of Argentina, tallest mountain of South America, and I think the tallest mountain outside of the Himalayas. And all these peaks are between six and seven thousand metres. So I've like, I've taken a plunge. Anything could happen.

SPEAKER_06 3:21:25

Jesus.

SPEAKER_02 3:21:25

I'm like, ah, yeah, you only die once, you've got to do it properly. You know, you gotta do it. So I'm actually like I got I live in a month, so I'm I'm shooting myself a bit about that. But might see you there. Um but it's just one of those things, man, where I'm like, I've got to do something.

SPEAKER_04 3:21:42

If it's working, it's working.

SPEAKER_02 3:21:43

Yeah, that's it. And I may get to the point because this is like the first real high altitude I've done. I've done like five and a half thousand metres or five thousand metres, which is high, but this is like getting into high altitude now. Is it? Yeah. And I'm like, well, I might not even like that, you know. I might get I might do those mountains and go, oh, I don't like this anymore, you know. And I might change my mind.

SPEAKER_04 3:22:05

We might go, Everest.

SPEAKER_02 3:22:07

Or I might, and that's that's I'm actually that's what I'm worried about. Because I might go, because this is a bit of a test. Aconcagwa is my test for me, for me internally. I know if I can get to Akonkagwa, like if I get to the top, I'm gonna know when I'm at the top, even though completely different aspects, like you're getting into the deaf zone and stuff with Everest, but I'm gonna know within myself whether or not I can crack Everest. I think you can do it, and I'll pro that's probably gonna be the decider. And I'm worried because I know how much it costs. Yeah, you know, yeah, price, you know. I'm like, you know, you've got to make some sacrifices.

SPEAKER_04 3:22:42

Well, I mean, I've I can tell you right now you can do it. Yeah, it's all in your head. It's all in your mate, you've the stuff you've done already.

SPEAKER_02 3:22:49

I'm like, fuck me, like that's pretty epic. And that's another big thing about doing the mountains as well. Like And I don't I I don't like this about like people that leave the police and they're just content to sit at home, you know, like all of a sudden they're too scared to leave the house. Like, well, for 15 years you've been going to people's houses that you don't know and knocking on the door and not knowing who you're gonna see or what's gonna happen when it opens, which you're fine with, you know, like not fine with, but at the same time, like you you shouldn't just go from that to now being too scared to leave the house. Like, what's the worst that's gonna happen when you leave? Like, it's not gonna be as bad as what you experienced at work. Like, you just gotta get out of the house every day and do something. And like, I was like that for a long time, but I had a really good psychiatrist in the beginning, and he just said to me, I don't care what you do, but just every single day, leave the house. It doesn't matter what you do, go and sit on the beach or have a coffee, go to the gym, just leave the house and get in the habit of going out. And which I've done every day since well, pretty much every day. Might have miss a few. I'll be missing a few after November when GTA 6 comes out. Oh mate, I'll be with you.

SPEAKER_01 3:24:07

I'll be with you. We'll land party.

SPEAKER_02 3:24:09

I'm actually disappointed I booked back on Kagua now.

SPEAKER_01 3:24:12

GTA 6 What a gaming PC too.

SPEAKER_02 3:24:15

But like, you know, like you gotta get out and do something. Yeah, and and it's not just about what you do, like it's just the stay active. It's just the process and the habit. And like climbing mountains is hard, you know, and it might not look like March just going on a hike, depending on how hard you push it, and like you've been carrying around a pack forever, like you know what it's like. It's hard, and then you know it you you're getting more mental strength out of it because you you can know how hard you can push yourself, and you know that you're stronger than what you were before you went in, yeah, you know, and that's why as well it's been really beneficial for me because I like now I know what I'm capable of, like physically and mentally, like you know, and it's just about the process, like and the challenge, and it doesn't have to be mountains, like I may one day go, I hate mountains, and I'll just go and do a different challenge just to challenge myself.

SPEAKER_04 3:25:16

Coming to Kakata next year.

SPEAKER_02 3:25:20

I've been discussing it, don't you?

SPEAKER_04 3:25:22

Yeah, man, I've I haven't done nothing like that in a long time. So I'm it's it's challeng it's gonna be a challenge for me.

SPEAKER_02 3:25:27

But my point is like as well, like it doesn't have to be mountains, right? Everyone's got their thing. It might be going fishing, it might be like I don't know, just going to the beach, going for a surf. But you've got to get out and do something. Like, you can't just sit at home and drink beers and watch TV and do this and like complain about this, and you just gotta get them get on with it, you know. And like people that actually know me will know like not many people know exactly what I go through day to day, right, with my chronic pain and everything. But people that actually know me do know. So they they kind of know what I go through. And like I'm still getting off from the house and going to do things. I get that I'm younger, I don't have kids, and what have you, but you know, you gotta do something like just anything, you know? Come up with a hobby, do something just to keep yourself active. And um, yeah, and that's part of the reason why I've gone back to study this year as well. Just to keep my brain active. Yeah, you know, yeah, slowed my mountains down a bit, but it's kept me active, yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_04 3:26:37

Mate, I I guess that kind of leads on to the last few questions I ask anyway. Yeah. You know, especially that first question, and you know, we'll we'll do these now, you know. Or what advice can you give to people just to keep on keeping on? You pretty much just explained most of it then, but to keep on keeping on complete any goal they set their mind to and to crush it.

SPEAKER_02 3:26:56

You just gotta everyone start somewhere, right? Like until 2024, I'd only ever climb like two mountains, like you know, and I was just like, oh fuck it, I'm just gonna do it, just jump in and do it. And I was like, I could go and do all these courses and learn these skills, but I was just like, ah, apprenticeship. I'll just start off with the easy ones and I work my way up to the hard ones. Um, but I'll tell you this story, and like I wasn't sure I was gonna talk about it, but I'll talk about it. But um last year, before I went on my trip, I've gone out to Burke to because I was going to the Balkans, right? Which I don't know if anyone knows Europe, but the Balkans is like Croatia, Serbia, Kosovo, Albania, Montenegro, Bulgaria, Romania, a little bit of Turkey, like all that kind of area. And all of those mountains are super wild and like remote. And two weeks before I went, they got like two meters of snow, and it went from just being like a solo navigation and hike per se, maybe a little bit of snow, to like shit, I'm gonna be hiking in the snow and by myself, and um I was like definitely not ready for that, but anyway, I learned that lesson, but I kind of went, there's a good potential that I could severely injure myself or die on this trip, but fuck it, I'm gonna have a crack anyway, see what happens. So I've gone out to Burke to see some mates because a lot of new people, and I'm like, oh, I better go just see him just in case I do fall off the mountain and die. Um, and when I got out there, one of my old friends who I was like really good friends with like years ago, and you actually know him, um you would know him, definitely. Um I was like, fuck it, I'm gonna go visit him. I've heard he's out here, I hadn't seen him for years. And anyway, when I got there, my friend's like, my other friend, you know he's got cancer, right? And I'm like, no, no, no, no. Um anyway, so I've gone out to visit him and he's like, yeah. And I'll I'll Craig Smith's his name. I don't know if you remember his name, but um, he was with me at the house fire I spoke about earlier. He like joined um not long after me, I think six months after me, three months after me. Uh I think he was like really new when we had that house fire. And like we were really close for a good period of my career in Newcastle and um like he met his partner through me and uh all this kind of stuff, and we just sort of drifted apart because we're different ages. Like he was in his 40s, I was in my 20s, so we sort of drifted apart and then went out and I seen him, and he's like, Oh, well, they've given me like six months to live. And I was like, Fuck, like, I want to be able to go overseas for three or four months, and you know what it's like, they give you six months, and it could be two months, you know, you don't know. And I was like, fuck, this could be the last time I saw him.

SPEAKER_05 3:30:11

Um, so yeah, it was the last time I saw him.

SPEAKER_02 3:30:25

Um and when I left, I drove from Bert to Dutto cried the whole way home. Cry the whole way back to Dutch. And um I was probably in daily contact with him from that moment. And when I was in the Balkans and walking around, every single day I thought about him. And I'd send him messages and he'd message me and he's like, I'm really proud of you and stuff. Um But anyway, when I got to I did I went back home and I finished Mont Blanc. Um and then after Mont Blanc I went to Iceland and I knew something was up, and anyway um eventually I got the phone call like oh he's not well, he wants to talk to you. So I organized a chat with him and I spoke to him the night before he died and then he died the next day. Um that's actually a funny story, really, with the Iceland trip, because the Iceland trip went completely to shit, right? And then the day after he died, we went and did something else because the weather was terrible, and then the weather became perfect, and when we went up the mountain, the weather was the best it's been all year, and the guy I was with, I was with because there's heaps of crevasses, and if the snow's bad, like it's really too risky. He's like, This is the best it's ever been. And I was like, You sneaky prick, you've just been like playing with me this whole time, getting it called off until you died, and then like you know, look out for me now so I got the perfect weather. But anyway, that's beside the point. Like, you know, like he was 56, he had adult kids. All he wanted to do when he died was go on a holiday because he'd spent all this time going to work and doing this, and all he wanted to do was travel and do all these things, but he couldn't because he was too sick when he got diagnosed. They're like, You're too sick to travel. And I'm sure he like he wanted to spend time with family as well, and like even the la last time I spoke to him was the night before he died. Like, I was talking to him saying our goodbyes, and he's like, Oh well, well, my family's here now, so basically a piss-off, like you know, I want to talk to my family, like and like I don't know, like he had sat on all this money for all this time, and in the end, all he wanted to do was spend his money and spend time with family, but he was too sick to do it, and like that's really my mindset from now on, and that's what's put me that way because since I last saw him to now, I probably think about him most days, and I'm like you gotta get out there and do something, like um, because you don't know when it's gonna happen. At some point, someone's gonna tap you on the shoulder and go, Alright, mate, well you've had your day. Like you might get lucky and you might you might have a heart attack and drop you know, walking down the street, but your your family's still gotta deal with it, you know? So like you gotta get there and do something because like and look after yourself. Like you know, I guess I don't have kids, it's a bit different for me. You've obviously got to look after your family first, but at the same time, if my parents turn around and I've got all their inheritance, I don't want their inheritance. I just want my parents to be there and be healthy, you know. And so I'm like, you know, you don't just sit on there and and wait to the day where you're like, oh, I'm gonna retire, it's all gonna be rosy. Because it might not be. Like, you know, get out there and enjoy yourself and and stay healthy and do it where you can. Um because that day might not come.

SPEAKER_04 3:34:21

That's it.

SPEAKER_02 3:34:22

Yeah, and that's like my my life at the moment, like my mindset, because I'm just like, I get it, I'm young, I don't have kids, I don't have any, I'm not tied down to anything. But at the same time, I'm like, at one day the doc's gonna tap me on the shoulder, especially with like my gut issues and that. Like, I'm not completely convinced that that may not lead into something one day, but who knows? And like, you know, I just want to be content with what I've done. That's it, yeah. And just be happy to sit there and play GTA 6 until I die.

SPEAKER_04 3:34:53

That's it, isn't it? Yeah, no, I I totally I totally get it. I totally get it, mate. It I do it as well now. I'm like, you know what, fuck it. I'm gonna do it. Yeah. I bought it, just bought a $5,000 fucking gaming PC. Yeah, and it was an um and ring mine. I was like, fuck, should I spend fucking five grand? No, you know what? Fuck it, I'm gonna do it. Yeah, and it's always because I'm gonna be like laying on your deathbed and it'll probably be that one callus, fuck. I wish I bought that fucking gaming PC.

SPEAKER_02 3:35:17

Yeah, fuck. And like Craig was a really good guy, man. He really looked after me, and you know, it it just upsets me that happens to people like that. Yeah, oh man, that that and uh I guess everyone has their own opinion, you know. Like people will be like, oh, he's out there and he's spending all his money, and should be like fuck that. I'll do what I want.

SPEAKER_04 3:35:38

Like you said, you lay on your deathbed and you go, fuck you, I did it. Yeah, I think I've I've ticked off, I've got my buckle is, I've ticked 90% off it. Fucking happy days. Well, like, you know, it is what it is now.

SPEAKER_02 3:35:49

I've got my own health issues as well, so I I've you know, and I've got a busted back and all this kind of stuff, and I'm like, one day I might not be able to climb mountains. Yeah, you know, so do it now while I can. Exactly. Yeah. And travel and see whatever.

SPEAKER_04 3:36:05

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 3:36:06

Because I'm just as much into the travel than the mountains, you know. Like I'm all about the travel, but the mountains are extra challenge we're talking about, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:36:13

Yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah. Mate's uh long-winded answer, but absolutely fucking relevant and perfect, mate. But it was perfect. Can go on a rant. Yeah, mate, it was good though. It was uh a very good detailed explanation. In short, just get get out and fuck go out and fucking do it. Just do it. Just do it. Like I say to the thieves all the time, just go rub that bank. If you really want to do it, just go fucking do it.

SPEAKER_02 3:36:38

Yeah, it's only gonna give you five years in jail. You'll be fine. You might get off on a technicality.

SPEAKER_04 3:36:43

Yeah, you get off on mental health these days. If you're a juvenile, you'll be out the next day. Yeah. Dolly Inkeback, shout out.

SPEAKER_02 3:36:50

Oh dude.

SPEAKER_04 3:36:51

My dad's thinking question what scares you most in life? And I I reckon that probably just ties off onto that as well.

SPEAKER_02 3:36:58

Well, I've got a similar one to you. I think aren't you scared of going to sleep? What's your didn't we say something about going to sleep?

SPEAKER_04 3:37:04

No, no.

SPEAKER_02 3:37:05

You got a fear of dying?

SPEAKER_04 3:37:07

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I've got a fear of not living a full life. Pretty much what you were just saying, living a full life, you know, living at least until I'm 70 or 80 again to see my kids grow up and blah blah blah.

SPEAKER_02 3:37:20

But um I used to have a big fear of going to sleep.

SPEAKER_04 3:37:24

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 3:37:25

Because I was scared I was gonna die in my sleep. Yeah. Because of my health and that.

SPEAKER_04 3:37:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:37:29

So that was with me for a while. So I was scared of the dark and stuff. It was weird, really weird. Yeah, yeah. Scared of the dark, scared of going to sleep, but that's sort of past now. And then um I'd say my biggest fears in life at the moment would be avalanches. Oh, fair. Um bears and sharks.

SPEAKER_04 3:37:48

Lucky not going nowhere to see.

SPEAKER_02 3:37:50

Oh, dude, I'm not that scared of bears. Have you seen any? I've seen in the distance. In the distance, and I've been there when they've been there, but I couldn't see them, and I knew that they were watching me, and their footprints are everywhere. And they just it's like you know someone's looking at you. You get that feeling, oh, someone's looking at me. That's it. And there's bear you know there's bears there because and it was all in the Balkans, actually. Yeah. I mean I'm the only one there. It was me and two other English guys, and we're doing like opposite loops. So they were going like counterclockwise. I I was going counterclockwise, they were going clockwise. So we're the only ones on the mountains that that time, and I was like, I'm the only one out here, except for these bears. Insane. You can't get away from them. I was shitting myself. They climb trees, they run fast, yeah, and they're silent, and they just fuck with you until you bleed out. I had one in Kosovo where there was footprints, and the footprints went up over this ridge, and it was the only path I could take was up over this ridge because there's land mines there. So I had to stick to the path. I couldn't go off the path because a week before I'd found an unblut unexploded land mine just off the path. I was like, shit, there's this bear footprint going over that rise, and I'd known bears had been seen there before. I was like, I've got to go over that rise, and there's bushes just on the ridge, and I was the wind was blowing towards me, so that's what scared me the most because I was like, I'm gonna come up over that hill, and he's not gonna be able to smell me. Um so I was like, I'm gonna come up, gonna come over, he's gonna be surprised, gonna eat me. But I went up over the hill, he wasn't there, obviously. Yeah, I was shooting myself the whole time. I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 3:39:35

I'd run, I'd I think I'd run towards the minefield instead. Oh, I do rather do that than get ripped apart by a fucking bear. Yeah, mate's uh third question tell us something about you people don't know. Guilty obsession. Obviously, fucking chocolate cookies. What were they? MM cookies.

SPEAKER_02 3:39:50

No, they don't mind they're the not anymore. I don't eat that shit anymore. But I'm a coffee addict. Uh yeah. Oh yeah. I'm smashing the coffee. I'm like a real coffee snob. Oh yeah. Yeah. Don't give me any instant shit.

SPEAKER_01 3:40:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:40:03

Uh I've been doing this study I've been doing, doing a lot of trips away. Yep. I'm just not taking coffee because I just can't make it the same. Yeah. But yeah, that I don't know. Like going for a paddle every now and then. Um there's the sharks. Yeah, except for the sharks, go to the sharks. Uh and I stay pretty active, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. I'm a bit of a gamer. Mate, we're on. Yeah. We're on. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:40:31

Mate's uh movie, TV show. What what what's your go to? When you are staying home.

SPEAKER_02 3:40:37

Vikings. I was super into Vikings.

SPEAKER_04 3:40:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:40:40

Into history and stuff. Yeah. Um so Vikings, The Last Kingdom, all that kind of stuff. Breaking Bad, obviously. Um the True True Detective Season One. I don't know if you've seen the first one, yeah. It was sick.

SPEAKER_04 3:40:53

Anyone that's like a real worst, isn't it? Hey, it got bad, like second series is okay.

SPEAKER_02 3:40:58

Then it just kind of realistic cop-wise as well. Like even breaking bad with the PTSD side of things, like anything that's like far fetched cop stuff I don't like. Um, and they're just gangster movies, basically. Comedy. Oh, I'm super into comedy actually. Yeah. Watch a lot of stand up and uh watch a lot of USC as well, MMA, kickboxing, and stuff like that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:41:22

Mate, uh Music when you're stomping up one of those fucking peaks, mate, you're listening to Um I'm bit out there, but I'm into like this I'm into everything, really, heavy metal, everything.

SPEAKER_02 3:41:35

But I'm into like this folk hip hop kind of stuff. Yeah, right. And it's like kind of big in the in Europe, like Romania and like the Balkans and stuff, where it's like they use folk music and make mix it with like rap and rave and techno and stuff.

SPEAKER_04 3:41:51

I think they call it they might call it trap as well. That's the Eastern European stuff.

SPEAKER_02 3:41:55

Yeah, they're kind of into all that. Yeah. Into Scandinavian folk music as well. Into a bit of that. Gets me pumped up.

SPEAKER_04 3:42:04

Yeah, alright, mate. Alright. Well, again, really appreciate you coming in and doing a long time, man. Mate, it has been a long time. And like I said, mate, we go way back, and um, it's good to see outside the police and thriving and getting fit and climbing fucking mountains. Like I said, never a you'll crush that, mate.

SPEAKER_02 3:42:22

Yeah, just more the money thing. If I'm gonna drop a hundred grand, I'd rather go to Antarctica.

SPEAKER_04 3:42:28

Imagine the the first people, who were the first two that did it and climbed it without breathing apparatus?

SPEAKER_02 3:42:34

Yeah, nothing.

SPEAKER_04 3:42:34

Yeah, that's fucking that's gangster.

SPEAKER_02 3:42:37

Yeah. Yeah, well, still people doing it. Like even last year, uh guy did it and then skied down without oxygen solo.

SPEAKER_04 3:42:45

I saw that Red Bull. It's on YouTube, actually.

SPEAKER_02 3:42:48

Super good to watch. Goes for like 40 minutes.

SPEAKER_04 3:42:50

That was epic. Yeah. Ski down the until base camp was up in the yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:42:54

Yeah, climbed to the top without oxygen and skied down. I'm pretty sure he had no oxygen. And then his brother followed him with a drone the whole way.

SPEAKER_01 3:43:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:43:01

From base camp, he was like flying the drone and like directing him as he went. Yeah. Insane. Yeah, exactly. That's a crazy story too. Yeah. If you're into Mountaineering and his personal story, go and look that up.

SPEAKER_04 3:43:12

Yeah, I watched it when it came out on YouTube. It's Red Bull. I think it's booked in the world. Yeah, it's Red Bull.

SPEAKER_02 3:43:17

Of course, yeah. Yeah. Fuck. Yeah, some crazy stories. Like, there's a couple of guys doing what I'm doing out there at the moment. We're like taking turns and doing different mountains at different times and sort of feeding off each other. Getting connections and you can start like a hiking club, but a proper one. Yeah.

unknown 3:43:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:43:37

Well, that's part of the reason why I'm going to South America is the guy just became the first to climb every mountain in the Americ, the tallest of every country in the Americas. So North, Central, and South. And he's just finished it. It took him 16 years. Yep. And I'm like, ah, I want a bit of that.

SPEAKER_01 3:43:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:43:53

I've had a couple of guys on uh into that mountaineering stuff. Um had uh uh Delta Delta guy. Yeah CAG guy, uh Chris Van Sant. Yeah, okay, yeah. He's uh he's pretty well known, I think, within that hiking.

SPEAKER_02 3:44:05

I meet a lot. A lot of people I meet uh ex-military on the mountains. Makes sense, yeah. You can tell who you can tell they're ex-military spoken. And yeah, that's what they get into. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:44:16

Yeah, mate. No, again, really appreciate you. And uh, we'll definitely stay in contact. And mate, who knows? Might see you on Kokoda, Kakoda Track.

SPEAKER_02 3:44:23

There's only one spot left, mate, so you gotta be but I've got a lot of commitments. Oh mate, you know, just I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 3:44:29

I'm there's only one spot left left out there. So if you're out there listening, feed Ben to it. Head out uh Kokoda Crossing, reach out to him.

SPEAKER_02 3:44:36

I'd I'd be keen to do it, uh honestly.

SPEAKER_04 3:44:38

I think it's gonna be epic. I'm pumped, I'm super pumped for it. My um And there's some notable names coming on.

SPEAKER_02 3:44:43

Actually, my Nan's brother was on Kokoda. Yeah, right. I didn't mention that. But um bit of history there. Yeah, so there's a bit of history there. I'll be keen to do it, but it's just a matter of timing. Who knows where I'll be on the room? Who knows?

SPEAKER_04 3:44:55

It might be on Everest at the top.

SPEAKER_02 3:44:58

Well, that is April. Is it April, May, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:45:01

Oh yeah. Oh, there you go. It's before it.

SPEAKER_02 3:45:04

Uh just a teaser. I don't want to talk about it.

SPEAKER_04 3:45:07

I'm I'm just building you into it. I'm making it.

SPEAKER_02 3:45:09

Anything could happen.

SPEAKER_04 3:45:10

I'm gonna be disappointed if you don't do it now.

SPEAKER_02 3:45:12

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I I probably should have done a language warning at the beginning, but uh apologies for the the potty mouth.

SPEAKER_04 3:45:20

Nah, mate, that's if people that listen to this podcast, they understand it, they get it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We didn't we didn't drop the C word, so the C bomb.

SPEAKER_02 3:45:28

Yeah, and that's usually well one of my what most used words. It's like some saying it to the crooks. It's good I haven't said it.

SPEAKER_04 3:45:34

Yeah. Yeah. Mate, again, appreciate you. And um, you know, I can it's uh it's really good to get guys on like yourself on the podcast to share your stories, especially from the truck, mate. Like because you you just it it just gives the people out there that are not in the policing role to give people the understanding of what yeah, especially the Jetty officer does. Yeah, this is what they do every single day. Every day, like multiple times a day.

SPEAKER_02 3:46:04

I could have gone to multiple of those in one day.

SPEAKER_04 3:46:07

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 3:46:07

But it's like there's a lot of good stories as well, but it's it's not as easy to come up with them on the spot. It's like usually free-flowing, look. Yeah, and uh a lot of good times. They definitely outweigh the bad stories, but um there's some real funny ones. Yeah. I don't know if I can tell them all, but uh yeah, no right.

SPEAKER_04 3:46:28

Well let's uh let's catch up midnight tonight. We'll go through uh Shortland fucking cemetery.

SPEAKER_02 3:46:32

Oh yeah, let's go for a walk through. Don't bring you to it. No fucking chance.

SPEAKER_04 3:46:37

I drive past it every day. I'm just like, fuck, that it just seems creepy, that whole cemetery. It is creepy. It's just it is old, like it's yeah, that's like first settlers type shit. People in there has to be. Yeah, somewhere. Yeah, probably. It it is like it looks right, it looks that old. Yeah, no, fuck that. Mate say, yeah, all right. Stay in contact. Good good luck with the mountain, and yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:47:02

Oh yeah, follow oh, follow me on Instagram. Yeah, what is it all about?

SPEAKER_04 3:47:05

Yeah, actually, yeah, people want to reach out to you, they can find you on your Instagram.

SPEAKER_02 3:47:07

Aussie Peak Explorer on Instagram. Um I've got a website cooking, um, but it's not up and running yet. And that's for just a blog, just for whatever I'm climbing, just a written blog, and like how to get there, like trail-wise, and and um what if people want to come with you? Where to stay. Yeah, like I'm totally open to people coming with me. Well we'll see. We'll see how where life takes me. Yeah, but um, yeah, if you want to come with me and you're up for it, um I'm starting to pick it up a bit more, but I've got a lot in the Pacific Islands and Asia, I still gotta do what Southeast Asia. And so I aim on knocking them over once I do South America and stuff. Um so I'd be keen to do a few of them. Like they can be done pretty cheap, cheaply. And it's all about the travel as well. Like I went into Vietnam, that was sick. Spent two weeks in Vietnam travelling around. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, if you want you you want to catch up, I'm Aussie Peak Explorer with an AU, not an O, or an Instagram. Yeah. And then at some point the website will be up and running. It's just too much work at the moment.

SPEAKER_04 3:48:20

Yeah. Yeah, mate. Well, I'm I'm gonna go do Cosyosco.

SPEAKER_02 3:48:23

Done it. And I might be doing it again soon. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:48:25

Well, fucking have it.

SPEAKER_02 3:48:26

If you want to do it with me, like probably uh end of school holidays, I might be going down down to do it.

SPEAKER_04 3:48:31

Interesting. All right, let leave it with me because me and Chucky were gonna go do it as a bit of content slash prep preparation for uh Kokoda.

SPEAKER_02 3:48:39

Oh I got a trip.

SPEAKER_04 3:48:40

How far is it? Like it's like 13k.

SPEAKER_02 3:48:42

Uh it depends what you what route you do, but from Charlotte's Pass, I think it's like 18K's return.

SPEAKER_01 3:48:48

Is it?

SPEAKER_02 3:48:49

Yeah, but it's not like a massive elevation gain. It's like a bit of elevation, but it's not like you're it's for kids. Just say it's for kids. 18k's is a good whack. Like, it's a decent length. The other way you can get a cable car up and just walk along. I'm down, I'm down with that. Yeah, it takes a few hours. I've done that route. Cable car, yeah. It just takes a couple of hours, straight to the top. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:49:11

Yeah, yeah. I'll meet him up there. Mate, alright. Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 3:49:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:49:15

Thanks for having me on. Yeah, cool. We said your Instagram tag. Yep. Yep. Yep. Done.

SPEAKER_11 3:49:20

Easy. All right, brother.