Ep. 259 Tom. A New Zealand Special Air Service - Intercontinental Hotel Attack Kabul 2011

SPEAKER_02 2:12

Zero Limits Listeners. Welcome back for another Zero Limits Podcast. I am here in Perth to record a podcast with a New Zealand SAS veteran. You may have seen his stuff on Instagram. He's starting to, he's becoming an influencer. Little does he know. You might have seen his Instagram, T6926K, on Instagram. Again, he's been putting up a whole bunch of photos from his time in the New Zealand SAS. And there is an infamous, uh I wouldn't say infamous, there's a couple of famous photos out there from the Internet Continental Hotel attack in 2011 in Kabul, Afghanistan. There's a picture of uh Steve Askin, uh Jamie Pennell, and then on the left side of um Steve is Tom. Yep. Yeah, mate, Tom, how are you? Yeah, good. How are you? We're just talking offline. Then he said, you know, basically just said you probably feel more comfortable storming a building with uh exploding Taliban rather than jumping on a microphone.

SPEAKER_03 3:15

Yeah, 100%. That's all good. Um cheers for having me on.

SPEAKER_02 3:20

Mate, appreciate you, appreciate you really uh, you know, coming on the podcast and sharing not only your story, but like I said, it within that photo with Steve Askin. And another one of the your other friends uh that you served with uh Jace, he's been putting up a lot of content as well. And you know, like you said, we just had breakfast and he put up some you know video content that you've never seen before. Yeah, yeah. Um and again, a lot of it uh entails with Steve Askin in there. And obviously Steve passed away in 2017.

SPEAKER_03 3:48

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 3:48

Uh in a hilo incident in um New Zealand fighting fires.

SPEAKER_03 3:52

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 3:53

So you know, the whole point of these podcasts, not only to share your story, but keep the memories alive of guys like that. And uh, you know, moving on through your you know, your career, you know, the NZSAS lost a couple of guys, which you were there for as well. So we'll definitely talk about it. And um, mate, again, appreciate you. Like, yeah, I know it's not easy coming on and sharing your story, but here you are.

SPEAKER_03 4:16

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:17

Can't run away now, mate.

SPEAKER_03 4:18

It's been a while. I've been waiting. Yeah, yeah, mate, yeah. About a year since since I I think I'd had a few beers that night when I said yes, and uh woke up the next day and I was like, damn it.

SPEAKER_02 4:28

I think you had about like a hundred followers then and a couple of photos here and there, and then like I said, your Instagram is starting to you've been putting a lot of a lot of content out there lately, especially of your time in the NZ SAS. And it's it's again it's relevant and it's and we're in this time and space now in this world where we need to see the real world out there and the guys that are out there to protect it.

SPEAKER_03 4:50

Yeah, um, I started that page really just to um show Steve like uh on the anniversary of his death, 14th of February, um just because it was pretty quiet and I just wanted him to be uh remembered and then um a little bit of interest and then I put a few other pictures up and um seems to some people are quite interested. Like I get a lot of messages from people that are gonna join the army or they're in the army now and they want to do selection and um it just seems to maybe interest a few people, so I thought I'll carry on, see how it goes. But yeah, sorry.

SPEAKER_02 5:27

Social media influencer. Hey, mate, I'm just gonna adjust that mic.

SPEAKER_04 5:31

Yeah, it's cutting out of it. It's not too close. That's good. That's good. Yeah, it's all good. That's better, that's better.

unknown 5:36

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 5:37

Uh like I said, mate, uh social media influencer buts, you know, again, that's that's part of the world that we're in now, and like I said, it's really good to have you on and and uh share your story. But you know, before we move into your life in the NZ uh military, and obviously now living here in Perth, let's get back to those younger days, mate, growing up in uh Dunedin.

SPEAKER_03 5:58

Yeah, um born and raised in Dunedin um on a uh we moved to like a farm when I was about four. My parents built a house on top of the hill in Leith Valley. Um and that sort of the whole surrounding area was just massive uh hills and stuff like that, sort of around the pineapple track and all that if people know the area. So um I had like a infinite playground for my childhood and it was just classic 80s childhood um on a farm, so rabbit shooting, BMXs running around, but yeah, it was cool. And um my parents were awesome and um yeah, it was just a good life, and um they worked their asses off, so uh yeah, that's it really.

SPEAKER_02 6:44

What what were your parents doing?

SPEAKER_03 6:46

Uh my dad sort of did uh like delivery work and then he went into well, my parents went into business for themselves doing um uh the milk runs, you know, the old milk boy and all that.

SPEAKER_02 6:58

Yeah, he got right into that and uh milk runs with the with the crates, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:02

Yeah, or the truck going around and then the milk boys running off. And you'd leave like a dollar under your under your mat, yeah. Different times. All the old school stuff, and I I did that for a few years as well, and um got a bit of coin, so that was cool. And um yeah, so that was sort of what he was doing for most of my uh childhood, and my mum was either helping out with that or um she'd worked in retail and things like that. But um, yeah, they just hard working and um yeah, I I had everything I needed. I had a great childhood. And uh brothers and sisters? Uh one sister, um, we were pretty close when we were growing up. Um not so much now, but uh that's that's right. But um, yeah, just one older sister.

SPEAKER_02 7:44

Yeah, yeah, right. And schooling, mate. How did you out school like the rest of us?

SPEAKER_03 7:48

Uh I was I read a lot, so I was actually okay at English. Um, and then everything else I was average-ish. It was really just interest level, and but the one I was really uninterested in was uh maths. Because uh normal maths is alright, but I couldn't understand at the time why I'd ever care what X equaled, and I just didn't care. So um, but the first barrier year in New Zealand is when you're 15, like for or fifth form, or probably year 10 over here, and um I managed to pull my finger out and get a good pass on that, so I wasn't completely useless, but yeah, it wasn't amazing either.

SPEAKER_02 8:26

Yeah, yeah. The maths didn't help you in the 2011 attack? Uh there wasn't too many calculations of that variety just taking numbers off the Taliban, yeah. Yeah, right, mates. And family history within defence, uh New Zealand defence or policing. Uh I was supposed to look this up.

SPEAKER_03 8:44

I forgot about it. I know both my grandparents were in World War II in various roles, but and I got told about it when I was a kid, but I completely forgot to look it up. But yeah. A little bit, a little bit in World War II, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:58

And like growing up, did you have like were you playing armies in the backyard? Like where does the because you you joined the defense in sorry?

SPEAKER_03 9:09

99.

SPEAKER_02 9:09

99. Yep. You finished school ninety-five?

SPEAKER_03 9:14

Uh no, so I did oh 96? Yeah, something like that. I I didn't do the last year of high school because um I thought I was joining the army at 17. So I just got out and um but every three months that year where they do basic training, I was thinking I was hoping I was gonna go, but they didn't I maybe they didn't want um under 18s at that time, so they pretty much just waited till I was 18 and then I went.

SPEAKER_02 9:38

So But where does that idea of joining New Zealand Defence Force come into your mind?

SPEAKER_03 9:43

Uh I think I was like 13 and I saw a TV program. Uh it was a Navy SEALs doing BUDS training. And um and then I must have been waffling on about that for ages, and then that end of that year, my Christmas and my birthday, I think my parents got me a couple of books. Um The One That Got Away by Chris Ryan. Um Inside the SAS, which is like an A4 size sort of book with all these pictures in it and all that of the Brits. And um that was me. I was that was all I was ever gonna do.

unknown 10:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:17

Any any concept of what the NZ SAS were?

SPEAKER_03 10:19

No, well first I wanted to be a Navy SEAL, and I was I was telling everyone I'm gonna be a Navy SEAL, and then um and then I kind of worked it all out, and then I was like, oh no, we gotta we got our own SAS. And um, yep, and then I pretty much just locked in on that. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 10:34

What what's the process here? Uh you know, you you said you leave school in '96, but you don't join the army until ninety nine. What are you doing for the next couple of years?

SPEAKER_03 10:43

No, it was a it was a year off. Oh, was it? Yeah, it was basically a year off. Yep. And then I'll and then I went. And uh I was just at home. I was because once I decided I want to join the SAS, I went when I was like 14, I went down to the Army surplus, bought a pack, chucked a whole lot of bricks in it, and then was running around those hills around my house, like they were my brick and beacons, I suppose. And um so I was doing that all the time. So I was doing quite a bit of training and then so that that year between school and army, I was just doing heaps of that and and just training and any mates doing it as w with you? Nah, no. Just you, like w again, like how do you Oh actually Yeah, there was a couple that come up for a bit, but they weren't they weren't that interested. Yeah, but that's coming up.

SPEAKER_02 11:27

Where does that drive come from though? Where is it just literally from that and watching the Navy SEALs?

SPEAKER_03 11:32

Initially, and then I just um bought tons and tons of books mainly on the Brits, you know, no means soldier, soldier I, um, Bravo 200, all that stuff, and that was yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:44

Yeah, I definitely especially within that 90s period, you know, where it was quite a quiet period for the Australian SAS and obviously New Zealand SAS, but the only SAS really doing anything was the Brits 2-2 SAS. Yeah, obviously the Iranian embassy in 80, 70s, 70s or 80s, 80s, and a few other things that they've done in that uh, you know, that was obviously popping up in the news and within these books as well. Uh, you know, the the the first Gulf War and all that type of stuff. So what's the process to join the defence force? What was it back then?

SPEAKER_03 12:18

You know, obviously this is prior internet and yeah, no, I they just had a recruiting office in Dunedin, so I don't know if I rang them or just walked in and got on the books, and then yeah, there was a while there where I was going in and just they used to do like uh practice RFLs for people that were gonna join, so I'd go to those all the time and just do the fitness tests and and all that, and then yeah, just wait till you get the call and go. Yeah. And there was um first time on a plane, turned up to basic training, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:49

So and you're only 17?

SPEAKER_03 12:52

No, no, I just turn 80.

SPEAKER_02 12:53

Just turn 18, so you can sign yourself. Yep. So you rock up to the recruiting station, you're like, chur, I want to be a navy SEAL. Cher And they're like, bro, yeah, and and immediately too, like Yeah. So you f you jump on your first flight to basic training, man. How did you find that basic training again? Like you've already built your younger, you know, teenage life around the you know, around joining the military, so you would have been, you know, your mindset was already set on that trajectory.

SPEAKER_03 13:23

Yeah, uh physically it was easy, but um it was different to how you imagine things to be in the books, especially when you're reading books about the SAS all the time, and then you hit real life on basic training and you're you know getting barked at by a cook or something like that that's running the section or then you're just like okay, cool. But um no, it was alright, just got through it. It was just a stepping stone to where I wanted to be. So um yeah, just push through.

SPEAKER_02 13:48

Did you have your mindset on the SAS at that stage? Uh since I was 14. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep, yep. How long was spacey training? About three months. Three months, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:59

And you found it all pretty not easy, but just I was just whatever on everything, but physically it was pretty easy, but um, yeah, I was just like everyone else, just learning. What'd your parents say about you joining defense? Um yeah, pretty supportive. Uh initially uh took a while for my mum to get used to it because she was from the sort of happy peace-loving era, so she was pretty anti or that sort of thing. But uh no, they they became really supportive and came up to my basic training, core training, march out, badging, everything.

SPEAKER_02 14:33

So we talked that you know that it's that 99 period, and this is where uh uh team all kicks off, really. Essentially, East more kicks off. So did you see any of that on TV?

SPEAKER_03 14:44

Uh yeah, a little bit. So I did basic training at the start of the year, did core training sort of mid-year down in Burnham. And then uh all the guys I did core training with went to one battalion, but I uh because I live close to uh Burnham and Dunedin, I managed to switch over to second first. So I saw the guys that I'd sort of trained with for the last three months uh on TV going into Timor, and I was still with second first, but um they did that trip, and um I went to 2-1. I think I did a trip to Brunei uh at the end of that year, and then pretty much start of uh the next year we started getting ready for bat two to Timor. It was a battalion uh deployment.

SPEAKER_02 15:30

Let's quickly just go back to uh the core training, you know, the infantry training. I'm assuming basic training similar to Australia, where there's just you know you've got all cores within the basic training, and then obviously from there you split off and go to your you know the infantry core training. How did you find that infantry stuff? Because now you were talking section attacks and machine guns and 84s and all the all the Gucci stuff, all the fun stuff.

SPEAKER_03 15:53

Yeah, I wouldn't say Gucci. Um New Zealand Army probably wasn't at that stage at that point, but it was better, like it was infantry. Yeah, your section commanders are um all good infantrymen, or you know, at least uh they are infantrymen, so they they know what they're talking about. Um yeah, it was better, it was getting more pushing into the direction of what I wanted to do. Um yeah, and it was freezing cold too, because Burnham's pretty cold, and um so that's one good memory of of that was being freezing all the time. And they had a 30k march that you have to do to qualify, and um yeah, there wasn't nothing. Like, yeah, I remember I still remember that. It was pretty pretty good. Hard work.

SPEAKER_02 16:35

Oh, yeah, a little bit, yeah. Is there anything you struggle with within the infantry side of things, or you just grasped that concept?

SPEAKER_03 16:42

I was just just loved it. Yeah, I mean, yeah. I I wasn't, I won't say I didn't struggle with anything, but I wasn't um was it a shit bag? Yeah, I I hope not. But I wasn't I wasn't amazing. Uh I was just what about the drill? Square game. Oh, yeah, shit of that.

SPEAKER_02 16:57

I think it's a retail, yeah. Right, mates. Um, and how long is that uh core training?

SPEAKER_03 17:05

That's about another three months.

SPEAKER_02 17:07

Another three months, and same thing is there a march at the end of it. Yep. Parents come, yep, yep. Everyone's pretty proud at that stage.

SPEAKER_03 17:14

Yeah, but some of the boys went into town and they weren't supposed to. So even after we'd um seen our parents had a little party, they went into town and because they weren't back, we were doing pressure press ups in the corridor back at barracks until they got back, so that was a long night. Yeah, we still weren't out of their clutches yet.

SPEAKER_02 17:34

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And like you said, from there, this is where you moved to the 2nd First Battalion.

SPEAKER_03 17:40

Um, where we where's that located? Sorry. Burnham, which is near Crochetch.

SPEAKER_02 17:45

Yep, and then from there you get your first jungle training exercise trip to Brunei.

SPEAKER_03 17:51

Yeah, I was home on, I think I was home on leave after core training and I just got a call. Do you want to come to Brunei? And I was like, Yep. So yeah, first time overseas, I think. And a little jungle exercise, and uh yeah, it was pretty cool.

SPEAKER_02 18:05

How'd you find all that? And how long is that exercise for? Uh I can't remember, maybe three weeks from that sort of thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:11

But you loved it. Yeah, it was good. Yeah, it kind of felt like I was like, you know, the Malaya stuff and all that that you read about it, or or Vietnam, like you're just sort of sort of learning that side of things now. So yeah, it was cool.

SPEAKER_02 18:24

Yeah. You get back, like you said, you get back from that exercise straight into see again, Timor's kicked off at this stage as well. So is is there anything floating around the batayon saying that they're going to be going or yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:38

So I think we were definitely sending a company, and then they weren't sure if uh they were gonna send the whole battalion. Um, so I was Alpha Company, which was the power company. I managed to do a little bit of the para course that year as well, got a I think three jumps. So static line. Yeah, so that was good. The old side door exit. Um so that was cool. That was yeah, so that was Alpha, and then uh that got disbanded, and it turned into we just had Bravo and Delta, and Bravo, I think was definitely going, and Delta was maybe, and then it just turned into battalion, so it was good.

SPEAKER_02 19:11

Yep, yep. So 2000, you ramp up for your first Timor trip, mate. Again, uh Tmall was pretty volatile in those first you know couple of years, especially with you know the cross-border stuff with Indonesia, yeah. Um and especially from the Australian side. How'd you go, mate? Uh like what's your what's your thoughts here? Obviously, your your inventory head to toe, and you're just keen to get overseas and yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:38

Yeah, I was just in a section we got over there, it was pretty wet when we first got over there, but um, yeah, it was a lot of just blue hats and going into the villages and stuff, and um talking to the locals. It was all pretty um mundane-ish, but it was still good because it was new and it was pretty exciting. And um I think it was actually getting to the point where they were starting to um I don't know if they did, but I remember they were talking about at least they were taking all the machine guns off us, take off our grenades, because it was getting so peaceful, nothing was happening. And then I think we were um you know, maybe just down to three mags, and then they thought it was all gonna sort of just be nice, and then uh Len Manning got killed, and um and then it sort of went the other way for a while.

SPEAKER_02 20:29

So let's talk about that because that's a quite a it was a a graphic scenario for for Len and um it's been spoken about on the podcast before from other guys and mate, run me through you know and how you're feeling because this you know this is it's close to home, mate. This is the first soldier that's been killed.

SPEAKER_03 20:48

Yeah, so he was we were both um private company and he was on a tracking task um going up a feature with about I think five guys and they there was some um militia at the top and they who he was in the scout group and he got pretty much just shot and then um they got rolled and uh uh one of the boys made sure because they were getting smashed, um, but one of the boys made sure that he wasn't still alive, and then they had to get out of there and um basically did a break contact and got out. So they did that break contact, but Len was left behind, wasn't he? Yeah, but he they didn't leave him behind well, they knew he was dead. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they had to save themselves, there's no way that's it. Yeah, that's what I mean. Yeah, if he'd if he'd been wounded or they probably would have.

SPEAKER_02 21:40

Yeah. And then uh, you know, everyone knows the story from there that uh Len's body was mutilated by the enemy. Yeah. And wh when does that information get uh disseminated down to you guys and like how does it change the the face of what you guys are doing?

SPEAKER_03 21:55

Uh yeah, so it it was so peaceful that I'd been running courses down in Sioux, so um I'd been on one of those, either Nav or SIGs course, like the banding courses, I don't know what they call them in those YME. But uh so I was on my way back up from one of those and I was in Telama, which was like the next sized up camp for us before you go out under the hills where all the sections were, and that's when we heard there's been a contact and we got one MIO at that stage, and so I jumped in with one of the sections and uh shot out, and then we just put an LUP in at the bottom of the feature, and then um another group or another platoon uh pretty much cleared the feature a few hours later or whatever, and then that's when the word came down over the radio. Um, yep, they found Lennon and he's dead.

SPEAKER_02 22:44

And did did that change your your attitude on anything? And obviously your your section, your company?

SPEAKER_03 22:51

Uh everyone got pretty um serious after that. Uh the machine guns all came back out, and the GPMGs, and everyone bombed back up again. Blue hats sort of took a back seat and we it was a lot more conventional and a lot more camming up and guys were a lot more uh yeah, it was getting a bit more serious for a while there.

SPEAKER_02 23:13

It's that political world, isn't it? You know, this is this is what happens and it's happened over the years. Yeah. Subsequently moving forward to Afghanistan, you know, like Yep.

SPEAKER_03 23:21

Far out, like um The company and the battalion were um close, like it wasn't there was no anger, internal anger or anything. It was just like it was uh it was directed at the at the enemy. And uh they um pretty much there was a few other incidences. I think a Nepalese guy got hurt or something and they were they came under us and it was getting a bit untidy. So um they called up the SAS to come over and um sort it out.

SPEAKER_02 23:50

Oh did they?

SPEAKER_03 23:51

Yeah, so they brought over a um SAS combat tracking team of about, I don't know, six or so guys, maybe eight. And um they were doing combat tracking to find where these guys were coming across the border, and then we would go out with them um as protection or security. And um so that was cool because that was our most of us and I was beacon um first exposure to them. You might see one walking around camp or something, but to actually work with them on the ground, and it was uh yeah, you just jump in the choppers with them, go and cast the river all day, and then jump back in the choppers, come back, and um, yeah, it was just good to see them working.

SPEAKER_02 24:30

Yeah. So that's the first your your first interaction with the NZ SAS. Yeah, and you're just like, fuck yeah, like you know, the you look at you know, uh again down the track, you can even when I seen you know the Australian SAS, they ever they just look scruffy, but you know, there's long hair and unshaven and unbloused, and you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 24:51

Like you just we come from an inventory world where it's you know shaven and well these guys were these guys look like initially like they hadn't come over, they weren't in the middle of a long tour, they came over, so they were they were looking sharp. Yeah, and that was good. It was probably the best recruiting tool they could have done as well for the worked in it because um yeah, they got they got a lot of guys go up after that.

SPEAKER_02 25:11

Yeah, uh it it's funny you say that because again, a lot of the boys that went Austray and SAS, you know, the a lot of guys have it on the podcast all had that interaction in T-Mor. They seem you know, cats come in and do their thing, and they're like, fuck yeah, I want to I want to do that, but that's that's me.

SPEAKER_03 25:27

Yeah, and the big thing at the end was um we all had stars and the SAS had M4s, so that's like an instant like boots, yeah, and it's like fuck yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:39

Uh like you said, mate, the obviously the SA's coming, you start doing a bit of work with them, you this is where I'm I'm guessing that f that desire uh is is burning within you, and so you finish that uh rotation. How long's that first rotation? Six months, six months, a long time in team or make a bit of money out of it. Not really. A little bit, yeah, not much. New Zealand pretty bad compared compared to Australia, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:04

Yep, that's pretty much the main thing about NZDF, and I don't want to be shitting on anything, but um yeah, and it's probably not even NZDF level, it's probably a government level. Yeah, would be yeah, yeah. And I definitely don't want to get political, but um yeah, pay your soldiers, you get you get what you pay for, yeah. Exactly. That's why everyone's leaving. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 26:23

You get back from that six-month tour, mate, first time overseas, you've encountered some you know issues with losing a soldier. How do you go back transitioning back into civilian, you know, I wouldn't say civilian life, but what are you doing? Just back straight back into training, back out on the booth with the boys, yeah. But just keen to get back overseas again.

SPEAKER_03 26:44

Bit of that got back. Um, well, before we got back, um so the SAS were there, obviously, and we were all in SOA, and um, they were cool. And then there was this other group there that I had noticed that I sort of found out a bit more about, and um, they were pretty cool too, not as cool as the SAS, but cooler than us. And uh that was the recon platoon. Uh they had like their cool little weapon sleeves and ghillie suits and sniper rifles and stuff like that, and um as another stepping stone for me, I just looked at them, I was like, yep, that's that's probably gonna be a bit of me. So got back from that tour and um they were running a patrol procedures course for the Ricky Platoon and managed to get on that and um yep, got into the platoon and that was sorry, and uh yeah, gotten to Recon and then pretty much had a year of training with them and then went went back to the for the second tour. But um, yeah, coming back to New Zealand, I was busy with all that, and um yeah, apart from bears and mucking around, it was no no worries, it was just yeah, crackle. Just living that soldier life.

SPEAKER_04 28:47

Oh yeah, the uh with the boys, the double digit baggy or whatever you call it. Yeah, we we weren't uh super rich, but it was it was good.

SPEAKER_02 28:57

Yeah, yeah, right, mate. So, like you said, you've you've now done the recon course, now you're in the recon platoon, uh you started shaving your legs, is it? That's what I did. That's it. It's Australian recon. Yeah, maybe.

SPEAKER_03 29:12

Um yeah, uh yeah. No, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 29:16

And what about fitness? You're just smashing the fitness because obviously recon's pretty demanding on the on the body.

SPEAKER_03 29:22

Yeah, no, it was all good. Like, oh I I wasn't like anything special, but I was I went okay. And um yeah, the recon guys are just would we're just good. It was just, you know, you know that everyone's pretty much decent to really good. And um yeah, you can learn a bit off them because the guys have been in a pretty square to wear. Yep. And it's the same same similar work to you know, you start getting into small group tactics and stuff like that. So um it was definitely more in the direction I wanted to go.

SPEAKER_02 29:52

Now this is the 2001 period, obviously, we'll talk about September 11th shortly, but you do get your second trip to Timor now. But however, this is uh within uh the recon.

SPEAKER_03 30:02

Yep. Yeah, so I think we had a year off and then um and uh because I think I went back on about five, um, and we did a lot of bush time in that year off. We did obviously the procedures course, and then they put the whole platoon through the tracking course because we were going to take that role off the uh SAS, or if they hadn't already handed it back and gone home. Uh, and then there was a yeah, just exercises, skill at arms, and then pre-deployment training. It was yeah, I just remember it was some serious bush time that year. Um, and then yeah, we headed over.

SPEAKER_02 30:39

What month was that?

SPEAKER_03 30:40

I can't remember. It was just before Christmas, I think, because we had Christmas over there.

SPEAKER_02 30:44

So I did it. So September 11th happened.

SPEAKER_03 30:48

Uh that happened.

SPEAKER_02 30:49

We were in the bush in New Zealand training. So you're in training. Yeah. So let's let's talk about that day because again, that changes changes the rest of your career because you end up in Afghanistan, you know, uh, because of it. Uh September 11 happens, mate. Run me through you getting the first word, and from there you're thinking, fuck yeah, like this is and like we all we all like.

SPEAKER_03 31:10

Yeah, we were we were in the bush, I think we were on exercise or maybe p PDT or something. I can't remember. But we were in the bush anyway, and we had one shitty little TV on one of the tents back at camp, and I think we kind of looked at that, saw that happening, and then to be honest, we just went back in and carried on with the exercise, and we were focused on team more coming up, and that was there was big boy stuff over over there, so at that stage I I didn't yeah, I didn't think too much about it. When did uh NZSS first deploy? They were over there pretty much straight away. So Afghan kicked off as far as I know and um did some work and then came yeah, came back for a bit, and then we went back in 04. Yep, yep.

SPEAKER_02 31:51

So you like you said, uh head over to Seymour, spend a bit of Christmas in Timor. By this stage, Timor has cooled down.

SPEAKER_03 31:59

Uh yeah, it wasn't as bad as uh Bat 2, so but it was still battalion-sized um group. And uh yeah, we got I got put into the tracking uh debt, like there was about five or six recon debts, and but our one was chosen to pretty much just be on 15 minutes notice to move for tracking tasks out of Sue, and uh all the other debts were out doing the yards, like you know, the big patrols and uh OPs and things like that, and we were just kicking back in Sue um on 15 minutes notice to move for whatever might come up. And um typical task really for us. One went off and uh section called for help, or not help, but they wanted us to go up, so we uh, you know chucked all our gear on and ran to the Hilo and jumped in our Helos and you know, all serious and fortunate sun and playing in our minds and shit, and then we get there, have a five-minute look, and uh yeah, they because they thought they were being probed. This section thought they were being probed at night, and then we send the boys. Oh, you know, we went out and had a bit of a look and uh come back and oh yeah, no, it's just cows. So it was like a five-minute job, back on the choppers and yeah, back for ice cream, so yeah it's good.

SPEAKER_02 33:14

And how long was that uh rotation for?

SPEAKER_03 33:16

Uh another six months, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:17

Another six months, and pretty just standard monotonous.

SPEAKER_03 33:20

Yeah, well we we no, I went, I went, we we were pretty much like in camp, stuck on that 15 minutes notice to move. We went out on one patrol, they swapped us out for one, and um and then when we got back in about a week later or whatever, the rest of the platoon had done up a big sign, big banner that pretty much the whole camp could see saying, Welcome home, bush virgins. So that was pretty good. Yeah, but no, it was good for me because uh I'd already decided I was doing selection at the end of that year, so I could get in and train every day and um yeah, and and just get rid of that. So yeah, I was I was I was happy.

SPEAKER_02 33:54

And you turned 21 on this tour?

SPEAKER_03 33:56

Yep. Fuck, fresh face, 21. A little can of coke, and I was good.

SPEAKER_02 34:01

Can of coke. Yeah, right, mate. Like I said, six months second to it, now you're back to New Zealand. Like you said, you've now that you've prepped for selection for NZ SAS, mate. Run me through getting onto the selection.

SPEAKER_03 34:16

Uh yeah, got back from Timor, went back down home uh for the break, hit the hills around home as best I could, and then had to go back to work. And um, but we went into a sort of a banding course phase as well. So for that you you to become like a next level up private or whatever like that, you've got all these courses you have to do. Um, I didn't really have much to do. Um, I was kind of good with my courses, and it was quite a big period, like six weeks or something, and selection was coming, and um the battalion or the whoever I was talking to, CSM or whoever, he just said, turn up for your one. I had like a one-day course, and he goes, Turn up for that, and then uh apart from that, you've got selection to trade for, and he goes, just don't fail. And I was like, sweet, and there was a few of us in the same situation, and the uh 2nd 1st battalion was really supportive of us going up. That's good, and that was awesome. Yeah, it was like they've they've always been proud to produce or give the unit soldiers, so um, yeah, I always always appreciated that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:20

How many blokes uh you got a couple of your mates doing it with you?

SPEAKER_03 35:23

Yep, yeah, so there's a few from uh Recon and other blokes, and uh Steve Askin was there as well.

SPEAKER_02 35:30

Oh, was yeah, yeah. So from there you head to your selection, how long is selection?

SPEAKER_03 35:36

Uh the testing phase is nine days, but there's a um pre-selection before that, which goes for I can't remember, maybe another week or so, um, which keeps you pretty busy as well. And I think even some blokes could didn't want to carry on even on that. Um yeah, the testing phase they they say you I think was nine days, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:58

And what what are you doing on the selection? Like give us uh you know, we've we've had I've only had a couple of guys from NZ SAS come on the podcast, Hamish McLaughlin, one of. Yep. Um had heaps of Australian SAS guys, so we understand the you know the three rex process they go through. Run me through, you know, what what you're doing, sleep deprivation, food deprivation, and just getting beasted.

SPEAKER_03 36:20

Yeah, so um yep, sleep deprivation, food deprivation. Uh everyone in the army knows the selection course is very transparent. Um and you know, you can know it inside out, but then you've got to go and do it, and that's a different story. But yeah, so that, and then you just have uh starts with a bunch of fitness tests on day one just to deplete all your energy that you've got, and then you get into the hills, and then you do a few days of uh navigation, and then you do the jury cans, which is a day of um sorry, twenty I think twenty hours or maybe twenty-four hours of uh carrying these jurycans. So if there's nine of you, you'll have ten jury cans, and um you just keep walking. And um yeah, guys are falling off of that a bit, and so that's pretty much uh non-stop. Oh, you have like a maybe a short break every while, and and then so that's pretty grueling, and then that'll either be normally in the desert or the sand dunes or the swamp or maybe a mixture, and then you go into close country navigation for a few days and then finish off with the endurance march at the end.

SPEAKER_02 37:34

Is there any time throughout this selection where you're like, I'll tell you what, I've had enough?

SPEAKER_03 37:40

Nah, nah my one wasn't uh I want to quit, it was I think I'm failing. Yeah, so that was all I was worried about was that uh Because there's no reinforcement reinforcement is there. Yeah, and you you No, there's nothing. It's just um they just give you the task and then they observe and and let you do what you want to do.

SPEAKER_02 38:04

So you finish how many sorry, how many guys you start with on that selection?

SPEAKER_03 38:10

Uh I think it was about over fifty, fifty-five or something like that. And how many finish? I think maybe six. Shit five. Oh, tuition roughly. Roughly like that.

SPEAKER_02 38:22

Pretty high. Yep. Wow. And out of that six all get selected?

SPEAKER_03 38:27

Uh I think so, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:30

So you get to that end period, mate, of that selection. Like how do they inform you what what's the process here?

SPEAKER_03 38:37

Uh you just um you just saw when you gear out, and then they they do their thing in the office and or you know, the DS and that, and then uh you get called in to the CO comes down and either he just has an interview and you're either accepted or not accepted. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:57

And how did you feel about that? Just like Yeah, pretty good.

SPEAKER_03 39:00

I I was completely um destroyed at the end of that course. Yeah. I couldn't barely walk, I need a tremor to get to the plane. Yeah. Um I I think I wore the wrong boots or my boots had blown out and I was my feet were pretty much bruised to the bone. And um, yeah, like I was destroyed. Yeah. Yeah. That's the whole point of the thing. I think if there's one more day on that course, I wouldn't have I might not have been able to carry on.

SPEAKER_02 39:25

Yeah, yeah. Well, again, that's the point of it, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 39:27

Yeah. So yeah, uh, anyone that says it's uh easy, um, they're full of shit. But guys did finish strong, yeah. Um but I don't think anyone would have found it easy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:40

Finish that selection, what's the process from there? So this is where you move into that reinforcement cycle of training. How long is this cycle?

SPEAKER_03 39:47

Uh that back then I don't know what it is now, but back then it was about nine months.

SPEAKER_02 39:52

And nine months, and run me again, run me through what this nine month nine months entails.

SPEAKER_03 39:58

Uh so the first half is sort of your green roll. So um Ed, SIGs, combat survival, and then patrol procedures, which is um very similar to the recon patrol procedures, but um a little bit different in some ways. And then um, yeah, and then you gotta do another like big E and E and that at the end, and that sort of takes up half the half of the cycle, and then the next half is the uh black roll, so counter-terrorism, and then you cover your basic boating and uh climbing and power and all that as well, and a few other things, and then um get to the end of that, get your beret, and then you've got a few other things to do before you're fully good to go, but like you've got to get an infull skill and a advanced skill and stuff, but um yeah, they can use you once you got your once you got your braet.

SPEAKER_02 40:47

How many blokes on the reinforcement cycle?

SPEAKER_03 40:50

Uh so we had a quite a big one because they were capturing everyone coming out of Timor. They ran three selections that year, and uh they got about five-ish out of each one, so so I think we started with 17. Started, yep, yep. Again, with Steve Askin. Yep, yep, yep. And uh Hamish as well.

SPEAKER_02 41:08

Oh, was Hamish on there as well? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, right. How was he going? All right, the mountain goat. Fucking legend. Like he's he's he's a different human being, isn't he? Yeah, he's like like we you know, we had that breakfast earlier and we spoke about him and when he took us out hunting in New Zealand, mate. Some of the stuff he was doing, me and even me and Scojo are like, we're not doing that, mate. Like he's walking off on ridges and dad's it like a mountain goat, and like fuck her out, absolute animal. But um anything you struggle with on the not struggle with, but anything that was, you know, I guess you didn't grasp too well on that on that reinforcement cycle?

SPEAKER_03 41:45

Uh yep. Um green roll was good. I was going good up to uh green roll finishing uh because it was all pretty much recon stuff or patrol procedures, so it was all good, and then the CT and that was a bit different. Um and I was uh shit on the pistol. I couldn't hit a barn from the inside with a pistol, and uh I was shit probably I would say for most of my career with a pistol. Like I just yeah, something happened and I just never got the fucking memo that everyone else got on how to shoot one. So yeah, I was shit and um a few other things probably, but um that was my main sort of thing, and uh yeah, I was probably lucky to scrape through on the pistol, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:28

Yeah, um well these days mate, they've got little sights on them now, they don't have to run the old iron site, yeah, yeah. I don't you can mess with red dot. I'll find a way and just on that, like did you ever have to use your pistol moving down the track in in a real world scenario?

SPEAKER_03 42:49

Uh once.

SPEAKER_02 42:50

Yeah. At the hotel. Oh, did you? Yeah, yeah, right. Did it did it work?

SPEAKER_03 42:54

Yes, uh it's good. Hit the spot. No, it's only a meter away or a couple meters away.

SPEAKER_02 42:59

So uh even I managed that mate, we'll we'll get we'll definitely get onto that. But like you said, from there you you get badged and then you join uh B Squadron NZ SAS, mate. How is that getting badged at the end there, getting your beret, and just yeah, it was awesome.

SPEAKER_03 43:18

It was right where I wanted to be. There's nowhere in the world I wanted to be apart for me.

SPEAKER_02 43:22

Yeah, and like I said, mate, this is 2002, 2001, Afghans kicked off, NZSAS are already over there. 2003 cycle, uh 2003 cycle cycle, sorry. So NZ SAS have already been to Afghanistan. Is there any talks of and sorry, 2003 as well? We we we're talking February, March, the Iraq war kicks off as well, so the world's just going nuts, and yeah, surely the you know your squadron's just going, fuck it. This is this is what we joined for. So we're rubbing our hands together. Yeah, it's it's like money, yeah, money in the pocket, mate, for especially for for any defense force, really.

SPEAKER_03 43:53

Yeah, well, maybe not money for us, but we might we might get to go and do something interesting, so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:58

Yeah, anything floating around, like any any teasers.

SPEAKER_03 44:01

Uh well we finished cycle and then we pretty much all went straight onto our infil skills, which will take quite a long time as well. So we took a while before we actually got into the squadron. Um, so I'd I'd I got put on the amphib course, and um I was that was another thing that I was shit at actually. It was uh I was probably the worst swimmer in probably the army, and if not the entire world. And uh Eric the Eel, I was getting badged on badge night, and I was talking to the course manager of the Amphib course, and I said, mate, I don't know if I'm the right man for this course, like I'm pretty shit. And uh he's like, Don't worry, you don't need to be able to swim, you just gotta be able to fin. And uh I was like, oh fuck, you know, here we go. And um, but I managed to get through, and it wasn't it was like the instructors, they they just work on your water water confidence, and once that's sorted, then you're good. But yeah, I was yeah, and uh anyway, so got that. There's a dude from Reci, I'll just mention it because he'll love it. Um Patty or Denton, um good bloke, but he uh he sent me up because he heard that I was doing the amphib course, so he sent me up a pair of those little water wings that you put on babies and you put them in the football. Yeah, and to the to this day he just thinks that's the greatest thing he's ever done. So thanks, Freddy. Yeah, me.

SPEAKER_02 45:24

Uh yeah, right. So you finished that uh you you insertion courses, yeah. And then from there that makes you a fully qualified operator.

SPEAKER_03 45:33

Uh yeah, I you gotta get patrol schools as well. I think I might have got SIGs or something uh somewhere. You've got to have a patrol school, which is either med SIGs or tracking. So I think I had I think I did SIGs somewhere in there as well. But yeah, so pretty much got the basics to um get into the squadron, and then uh we broke up for the year, came back, and then at some stage we're I can't remember exactly, but they said yeah, we're um we're going to Afghan. And how was that? Yeah, pretty much lottery win, like for us, like so it's me, Hamish and Steve and a few others that just got into the squadron and um and then it was just straight over, pretty much. Like straight into PDT. And then straight over.

SPEAKER_02 46:14

So But I just wanna I just want to highlight that that mindset. You know, how many I don't know how many other jobs out there where you know you you're so excited to go to war. You know what I mean? Like it's just the the mindset to have that mindset is just a different is it it's on a different scale.

SPEAKER_03 46:36

Yeah, I suppose so, but um yeah, I mean anyone that puts themselves through all that effort to um get into one of those units voluntarily, um, you know, you're not gonna sit you don't want to sit back in New Zealand and just look cool, like you're gonna go and do something now.

SPEAKER_02 46:52

And little did you know that first trip's gonna be pretty wild. Yeah, well I had a had a couple of moments, yeah. Just a couple. One locked into history, which we'll talk about just shortly. So, mate, like I said, you're ramping up for Afghan. Is there any extra bit of training or you know, what what information are you getting? Because again, this is early days Afghan, you know, subsequently down the track you start getting a bit more information and learn the TDPs of what the Taliban are doing, but at those early stages it was quite a it was an on and off period where it wasn't just out full out war.

SPEAKER_03 47:23

Yeah, um, so we were uh going over to do a mobility sort of role, um, but we didn't New Zealand didn't have any vehicles, so we had to make do with what we had. But um the SSM and all that um were brilliant at training. So they if if it wasn't a actual because we didn't actually have the Humvees to train on, they found a way to train with what we had to make it work. So it was really for the guys that hadn't been over there yet, uh, get their head around sort of the mobility side of things, which we didn't cover in cycle, and um did as much as we could. So it's once we got into country and had our vehicles, it was just a little top-up out on the range, and then we were we were good to go.

SPEAKER_02 48:08

So what's the what's the job wrong going over there and what what's your job to do?

SPEAKER_03 48:12

Uh it was long range reconnaissance. Um what? Uh I think we I was only a first year um trooper, so I I may have have this wrong, but I think we were uh I'm pretty sure the main role was that they were gonna send the uh MEU, the Marine Expeditionary unit. Uh they were gonna send them pretty much like up into the Helmond area and surrounding valleys to establish all those fire bases that came in the years later. And so we were the like the first uh recie group to go in and go through and find out. Map out the ground. Map out the ground, suss out what who was in the villages, whether you can get a Humvee over this bridge, whether you can cross this river, you know, all that sort of stuff, and then uh I think we recceed a few fire bases and stuff as well, just uh uh just so they didn't send a massive unit up the valley and get bogged down. They knew what they were going into.

SPEAKER_02 49:07

So your first patrol was out actually on uh on Anzac Day?

SPEAKER_04 49:11

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:12

How was that? How's that, mate? Like that's that was pretty cool.

SPEAKER_03 49:16

Yeah, glad we got a photo of that. Oh did you? Yeah, I think one of the boys jumped on and he goes, uh yeah, the shittest Anzac Day ever. But it wasn't for me, it was cool. Yeah, but I mean you didn't get to go to the pub or anything. But uh yeah, we just pulled up and had a quick little um ceremony at first light and then crecked on with the patrol.

SPEAKER_02 49:37

Yeah, and like you said, all this is uh Hum V oriented as well. Yeah, the Yanks lend us some Humvees, so that was good with them. Isn't that crazy, isn't it? Obviously, like we again we talk about the same period uh you know the Australian military. I think we pulled out at that stage and focused our efforts on on Iraq, but when our um Australian SAS went in, they obviously had the LRP LRPVs, so we had our own asset. Yeah, you guys had to go over and go, Oh, we need some vehicles.

SPEAKER_04 50:05

Oh, hey bro, your Humvee.

SPEAKER_02 50:10

Yeah, yeah, right, and like how was that and running with these Humvees that you've never used before? Like, I'm sure you got used to it quite quickly, but we know that the Humvee turned into a i especially in Iraq, it was a death trap.

SPEAKER_03 50:24

Oh yeah. Um I thought they were cool. We didn't have anything better, so didn't have anything to compare it to, but we just cut them down, got all the back off, all that um turtle shell shapes. Oh, it's cut it all all down, just pictures on the turn into a bit of a U. And then we put on like ply boxes, and that was all our food. And then we put our jerry cans in the back and all our spec gear, and then just um chucked a few guns in, um, jimpies, mounted jimpies on the drive uh commander's side, and um yeah, cracked on. It's good. 762 general purpose machine gun. Yep, and then uh the turrets we had uh 50 kills and Mark 19s.

SPEAKER_02 51:02

Yep, yep. Now I guess let's talk about the first time you encountered a bit of hostility.

SPEAKER_03 51:08

Uh yeah, so it was um well yeah, the only time really on that trip, but it was um Which turned out to be the biggest one? Little yeah, it was a little bit uh turned out a little bit significant. Um we have a quick break.

SPEAKER_04 51:24

Yeah, mate, yeah, yeah. Thanks. Sorry. Is that working?

SPEAKER_02 51:31

Good, yeah, that's good. That's good. Cool. Uh just a quick little break here before we get into his first contact, which actually turned out to be it was locked into New Zealand history, uh military history. So, mate, let's let's talk about this first contact and deep dive into it. Because Hamish obviously spoke about this and Yep.

SPEAKER_03 51:52

Yeah, yeah. Um okay, so yeah, we're in um sorry. So yeah, we were just on a patrol and and we uh went down into this valley and um I think when we kind of came over the um bridge into the valley, I think that was the one where we heard uh it was the first time we'd heard any sort of fire, but it was way off in the distance, it wasn't really at us, but we just heard like a full magazine of uh AK going off into the air. Um and so I think there was sort of a signal that they must have used or something, but I just remember hearing that, and um so that was a bit different, and we went down into this uh village. Um we were the lead vehicle that day. Uh so I was up on the turret, I was pretty much in the turret all the time on that tour, and um Willie was driving, and uh Tony was the vehicle commander. Um and so we went down uh and we put there was a village, we called it at the time I called it um I think that was his maybe just call it but so we went in, uh the first three vehicles, uh which was us at the front, another one and the troop commander vehicle went in to the village. And um just like we do every every village, just cruise in and um suss out who's in there and uh try and jack up a meeting the next day, and they normally like put on a curry or something for us, and we go, we all gun and uh yeah, the troop commander does his thing and has a talk to them or whoever. And uh there was a few other uh our other vehicles, which were like another four, um, stayed out of the village up on the high ground just to um keep an eye on things. So we did that. Uh this village was a lot different to the ones we'd been in. We'd been through a lot of Hazaran villages at that point, and um they were quite friendly, and these guys looked different, and uh they had a pretty um hostile looking attitude, like the old Death Eyes sort of thing. So uh got that jacked up, and then it was getting late in the day, so we headed up um into the hills, and we were probably about um maybe K and a half, two K's away, and we put in a harbour, and it was a split harbour because it was pretty shit ground, and uh the our three vehicles were on one side, and um our vehicle was on like we were all on a forward face, and then our vehicle was closest down to the riverbed. And if you went down that off the front of our vehicle to that river, dry river bed, and turned left and walked uh a K or a K and a half, you'd hit that village, so that was sort of the ground, and then um the other vehicles were behind and on the other side of some high ground. Uh so we parked up there. I'm pretty sure our three vehicles at least could be seen from the village. We weren't really hiding, we were just we were just there. Um and uh we just got into night routine, uh had something to eat, and then um went to bed. And uh my position around the vehicle, I went I found a flat spot about ten metres down in front of the vehicle, further down towards the river. And um Willie was sleeping on the bonnet and um Tony was sleeping next to his gun the driver uh commander's side. So yeah, went to bed, uh got up at some point, did some sentry, um and then went back to bed probably around midnight-ish, and then um it was probably three, three something, just before first light. And um yeah, they they kicked it off. So uh first thing I heard when I woke up was an RPG being fired straight at pretty much straight out of the top of me. And um that was a direct hit to the vehicle, the uh to our vehicle and um at the front and blew Woolley off the bonnet, and um, yeah, I'm not sure how he survived it. And then um and then the whole area was pretty much around our vehicle, it was just saturated with uh fire, small arms fire, and um it was really close. They were they were just down the hill, and um they also had fire support positions behind them, uh up on the high ground, putting in um overhead fire support for their uh for the air assault group, which was uh already pretty honest. And um so I just turned and uh crawled up the crawled up towards the vehicle. Um there was rounds hitting uh you know smashing rocks into my face. Um and uh I just crawled up, I didn't I just left my Webbing and rifle like we were just hit so hard, had no time to get anything. And um I got to the vehicle and um I met up with uh Willie and we were both sort of next to the driver's side door, uh crouched down, and um yeah, our vehicle was just getting smashed. Um RPG's coming in as well, still hitting the front. And um Willie yells out at me, he goes, It's on us, and I'm like, Oh yeah. And uh he didn't have any gear either. And uh my job as a gunner is to uh if you had an L UP is just get in your turret and and your gun. And so that's what I went to do. And uh I started climbing through the hole to get to the turret, and I just felt this hand smash down on my back and grabbed my t-shirt and just ripped me back down to the ground. And Willie's like yelling at me, he's like, It's on us. And I was like, Oh yep, sweet. So, okay, and he goes, Um Yeah, so like 20 seconds into this job and this contact, and um Willie's pretty much just saved my life, you know. So I was definitely gonna get in that turret, and I was gonna get I would have got shot pretty quick. So um and then Willie's like, let's go, and we crawled down the side of the vehicle and got round to the back. And he was like in the middle of the back of the vehicle, he was central, and then I was to his left, and um you were just there um finally in a little bit of cover. And um, and then Tony comes around the other side of the vehicle, uh, and he's holding his arm, and he crouches down on the right hand side of Willie, and he goes, uh, I I've been hit. And he um just falls forward onto his face and he's pretty much he's done. And um even over the RPGs and the machine gun fire and everything, you could just hear the blood coming out of his arm and just spraying the um spraying the rocks. And uh Willie clamps both hands around his uh arm and um trying to stop the blood, and he's and he yells out for for a first field dressing, and um I didn't have one. And uh so I was like, oh, I gotta help. So I just thought of the I the only thing that came to my mind was my webbing, which I had some med gear on it. So I was like, I gotta go get my webbing. So I just stood up and um ran back down the side of the vehicle, and um it was on fire now. So when I ran out in front, I kind of silhouetted myself um against the fire, and then the uh enemies sort of all saw me, and uh the rate of fire was already pretty heavy, but yeah, they um sort of just lit me up. So got to my bed space looking for my webbing and um kind of realised at that point that I'd um fucked up and I probably shouldn't have done it, but I was like, oh well, I'm here now. So uh grabbed my webbing and I seen my rifle. I wanted to grab it, but I now realised I was I'd had to get out of there, I didn't have time, so if I'd tried to grab that, I probably would have been there too long. So I just turned and then just ran straight back up the hill again. But I had my webbing now, and um yeah, there was just rounds cracking and all around and zipping past my ears and all this sort of shit, and it was just it was fucking stupid. Um but I got back up and um I was kind of expecting to be hit the whole way up, and I didn't get hit, so um that was good. And uh got around the back of the vehicle and plonked back down next to Willie, and um I ripped the first field dressing off my my webbing and opened it and I gave it to him. And um the boys up the back had started putting in some return fire for us now. It wasn't a lot, but it was something. But um because the the enemy assault group was pretty much right below us coming up, and our vehicle was on fire and it was full of ammo and fuel, um, that wasn't a good thing either, obviously. And Tony was dying, and so Willie just straight away he just goes, We're gonna go. And um he stood up, and uh, I was still kneeling down in my little spot with my webbing, and he stood up and he picked Tony up, and um he was still half sort of crouched down, trying to stay in that little bit of cover we had behind the vehicle, and then he picks Tony up, and he's Tony's like uh he's out, so he's he's dead weight, and um threw him over his shoulder, and then he looked he looked up the hill where he wanted to go, and then he looked back at me, and he goes, You good? And I'm like, Yep, go. And um, and then he just ran, and as soon as he left the cover of that vehicle, he was running, he was running through bullets. And um Yep, so he he went and uh I didn't see him again till the end of the contact uh the next day, but and then I just chucked my webbing on and then I turned and looked and I seen a vehicle uh up the back of the hill, uh up the top of the hill, and I was like, Yep, that's where I want to go, and then I was just like fuck my life, and then I just ran and uh ran back into it, and it was the same again. I was just um bullets flying past me and and all that, and uh so yeah, ran up hill and um I was kind of in survival mode at that point. Uh my brain was just going, get to cover, get to cover, get to cover. There was that was all I wanted to do was get out of this uh situation. So got to that hummer, ran past the boys, and I just ran behind their vehicle and and got down, like just to be in cover and finish that part of it all. And then I was there for like a couple of seconds, and then I was like, alright, fucking jobs on. And um, so I got back up and I ran to sew in that vehicle. There was Rick in the commander's seat, and he was uh hammering on the on his GPMG. And uh Hamish Laughlin was in the turret on the 50, and their driver, he was an American, he wasn't really he had a different role, he wasn't really there to fight, and so he'd parked the car up and um gone back under cover or back to cover, which was fine. He he wouldn't have uh been much use anyway. Um and so I ran to Rick and I was just yelled in his ear, they're right below our wagon, and uh he just dropped his barrel and started engaging down into pretty much right next to our vehicle, which now was pretty much a blazing inferno. And then uh I went back to Hamish up on the turret and I yelled the same thing at him, they're right below our wagon, and um and he's he did the same thing, and then uh the next thing I yelled at him was I need a weapon, and uh he just unclipped his M203 and gave it to me off the turret. And um, yeah, I don't know too many guys that would lend you their personal weapon in the middle of a gunfight, but um that's the that's the measure of the man. He's uh he's a legend. And um so yeah, so I had a gun now, so that was good, and uh stepped away from the vehicle a little bit and then just uh started firing um down to where I thought they were, and um probably went through a few mags and uh sent a few 40 mil down there as well, and yeah, those two were just hammering that at a real good position, real good angle, so they were doing some really good uh effective fire. And um, so I got all that out. I was probably I was uh hurling a bit of abuse down the hill as well. It was a bit of a uh venting session for me. Just I was getting uh just sort of getting over that first part of the contact, and it was good to be able to shoot back now. And then I thought uh I'd better go see the troop commander just to make sure he knows uh what's going on, because if he thought we were still down in that vehicle, that would complicate the situation. Um, so I just trotted down. He was a bit further down, back down the hill a bit closer, and um went and seen him, and he was on his jumpy um getting stuck in. And um I was just yelling in his ear while he was shooting, and I just yelled, yelled, um, we're all back, there's no one down there. And then I was told him they're they're right below our wagon, and then the last thing I said to him was um Tony's been hit, he's fucked, and he was like, oh yeah, so he knew everything he kind of I could tell him that he needed to know. And then I thought I'll I'll go back up to where uh Rick and Hamish are because um they're my mates, and also I wanted to be where the cool kids were, so went back up to them, and then the we just went into a period of just um firing back at these dudes and um trying to get a bit of momentum um because we were sort of on the back foot, and the other vehicles were coming up to our right, and that I didn't see it, but uh Willie took a he dropped off Tony and then he'd picked up a GPMG uh off one of the vehicles down the back and came up with that, and so he was getting stuck in as well, and um yeah, it was all on for young and old. And um so we were firing away, uh our fire was coming up, and then at a certain point the troop commander gave like a basic control order, uh, and it wasn't much, but it was I think it was pretty much just uh media front, rapid fire, and then when when he gave the fire, everyone just hooked in. And um and then from that point we had uh we gained the initiative and uh we kept firing, and he might have done that once or twice, but I kind of remember it once, and then um their fire, the enemy fire sort of started falling away, and then it got to the point where I stopped and then watched and shoot, and so that's when we all started looking, make sure we weren't getting flanked or um or whatever. And those of us on the left-hand flank, if we looked to our left, we could see down the riverbed that was heading back to the village, and there was like different turns and stuff, and you could see parts of the riverbed further away, and probably 600 metres or so away, uh, you could see them in the riverbed, and so we were uh trying to direct fire of the big guns down onto them, and we were trying to um get them as well. And uh that was pretty much it, and then they disappeared from sight, and um we stopped firing. And then the uh pretty soon after that the sun came up, and um Yeah, we and then we had to start with the medical side of things. Uh one of the other vehicles had been taken out with an RPG. And um And the vehicle commander had been trapped with it, and so he had trapped down the back of his leg. So um we had to go down and it was all admin stuff now, like there was there's no it wasn't we weren't under conduct of anyway now, and yeah, we were just we had to carry him over to where the where Tony was. It was like a little medical central point. And um yeah, I remember giving him shit because uh he'd been like he was a troop sergeant and I was uh he'd been like running all the courses and the range shoots and everything, so we're all just laughing and going, Oh, you know, you've been you've been running courses and stuff so long you've forgotten how to take cover. And it was like fuck you. But um, yeah, that was cool. And um, so we got back got him over there and then uh yeah, the rest of the day was just um sorting all that out. It's a bit of a mess. In that area? Yeah, uh half half the squadron went down to the village and did a bit of a clearance and had a bit of a had a bit of a uh chat. And um, but yeah, like we didn't have a car anymore, so we stayed at the top of the hill. Um Hamish wanted his gun back, so I had to go and pinch one off for the other bloke that got was getting evacued, so it was all good. And then um Did you get yours back eventually? No, I think the fuel and everything went down into my bed space because when I went down there later, um my whole bed space was destroyed. Fire. Yeah. Yeah, the M4 was destroyed and everything. So yeah, um, and then uh I was pretty busy pretty much for the rest of the day. Um we had to blow that our old one, our old Hammer out, and then the other one that was taken out uh got replaced. They flew in another hummer, and then that became my new one. So I I was just busy um sorting out my turret pretty much for the rest of the day. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:12

Couple of questions, mate. Now, woken up to an RPG, you know, it it doesn't matter who you are, what planet you're from, getting startled and woken up, you know, that first couple of seconds you're just completely disoriented. Yeah, yeah. Like you said, because this is where you you you had no time to grab your rifle or your webbing.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:34

Yeah, it was it was we were we were hurt pretty hard. So um I think that was the initiation, and then and then there was a small arms straight away. And yeah. Yeah. Not great. And you were probably the closest to them.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:47

Uh yeah, I think so. Yeah, down on the hill. Yeah. Thought you'd find a nice little flat spot.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:52

Yeah, well, after that, um, my new bed space was always uh right behind the wagon.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:59

Yeah, yeah, far out. It's just um and during obviously the the daylight period, this is where you start to see the destruction. What what are we talking here with enemy KIA?

SPEAKER_03 1:11:12

Um, I think it wasn't it wasn't a lot. It was I think two in the uh assault force that were lying down the hill. There's one dude just a little bit further down the just from down from my bed space. And how were they dressed? Were they dressed for a fight? Are they were these fighters? Yeah. Yeah, they had jammies, chess rigs, AKs, um old mate below my bed space. He was the commander, he was kind of a big deal. Um was he? And he got smacked. I think they said if you know how the Iraq had their deck of cards sort of thing, they kind of said if if Afghan had that thing going on, he would would have been on the deck of cards. Oh shit. So um, so yeah, he was it was uh that was interesting. Um but yeah. It was good. Um still thought it was pretty cool though at the end of it. Like, yeah, I was like fuck, let's go do that again. But you know, to do eventually, maybe start off a bit better than that. Yeah. Yeah, right. And um and uh yeah, so two there, and then I think maybe a couple more, one or two more, but yeah, some better was there any indication throughout the day that you're gonna be hit or um no, no, because we just went through the village, so maybe just the fact that they didn't really look like they liked us, but that doesn't tell you straight away.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:38

And you spoke about those death eyes, like we've all seen those, especially in Afghan. Like you walk through a village and you look at someone, you're like, fuck man, I you piece of shit. Yeah, I know what you do, yeah, know what you do, you can just see it in their eyes. Yep, yep. It's hard to explain unless you've seen it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:56

But um, yeah, so that was that. And then um, so we um mucked around for a couple of days, just sort of tidying all that up and going to see people and around the place and that and then um and then we just finished that patrol, went back to our rec reconnaissance side of things, and then um Yeah, carried on with the tour.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:20

And how long is that rotation? Uh six month tour. Six month tour, and obviously no no uh no talk about a VC or anything there, and you know, that obviously comes down a couple years down the track, but that tour ends, head back to uh back to New Zealand. How are you going, mate? Like how's how's this? You know, you've gone from the regular infantry, T-Mor trips back, soldiering, loving it. Now you've gone to Afghanistan to active war zone, got into your first gunfight, almost killed on multiple occasions within that one gunfight. Now you're back in New Zealand having lattes.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Didn't really worry me. Like I was I was still embarrassing. And you know, you just deal with the boys and uh you know it keeps you busy. Um but yeah, no, it was good, no worries.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:16

With your training, obviously, this is where it starts to develop and the evolution of training starts to kick in because now you're understanding what the the Taliban are doing. Are you doing are you guys doing any further training? And obviously, again, that while you're out, there's another squadron that's gone in.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:32

Yeah, so they went in the next year, um, A squadron, and um yeah, I didn't really hear much too too much about what they did. I think they had some problems with the vehicles because we had our own vehicles now, but I don't think they're Pinsgirls. Um But yeah, that next year uh was our first year on the team, so yeah, we were still buzzing uh from our tour, like everything was just an upwards trajectory of awesomeness. So um now we're just on the team, which is what you do in the in the unit, so it was all good. And yeah, your first year you got tons to learn. So um just got in there and and did that. It was just yeah, yeah on the team.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:13

Yep, yep. So that's the the CT stuff? Yep, yep. And how what are we talking? It's just just training.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:20

Yeah, you're just doing all the different um CT roles and for d covering domestic terrorism and stuff like that. And um, so we uh during that we sort of Steve and me and a few other boys, we sort of had weekends back now, so we were just uh going out having uh adventures in the weekends and getting up to Skullduggery and stuff like that. But um we kept uh getting hurt. So at one one um Steve, one of the boys had jumped off the Hanoa Falls before, and Steve couldn't handle this could these falls near uh camp, and Steve couldn't handle the fact that um someone else had done something that he hadn't done, so he was like, uh, yeah, I'm gonna go and do that. People have died jumping off them, I think. And uh so he went into that. So he compressed his spine doing that, and like another weekend I got thrown off a horse, got my got fractured my arm, and um we're just doing dumb shit all the time, so we we got like reined in. It's like come here, the SSM's like you guys gotta wind your weekends in, you know, you you're on you're on call.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:28

So Which is wild because you know, you in most guys are out in the PS doing but you're out doing just more adventure.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:37

Oh, we're on the PSP. Yeah, on the PSP, you know what I mean, but more adventure, whereas Yeah, yeah. Oh well, yeah, because Steve couldn't sit in barracks. Yeah. He was he'd lose his shit. Just ADHD. Oh no, he just he just wanted to do stuff all the time. He just had active active mindset, so you weren't gonna catch him and watching movies all Saturday and you know, picking out on junk food. He was like he'd just go around and go, All right, let's go. And we'd just go and go fishing or do something stupid. I need to win the spot for it, so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:09

So it was uh it was cool. So you spend that year on the CT side of things, uh 2006, you get an exchange to 2-2 SAS.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:17

Yeah, yeah. And uh uh yeah, it was a long look. So I went over and um by yourself? Uh yeah, uh one of the boys went to Paul with SP and um and then yeah, I went to Hereford and um yeah, it was good.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:36

Uh how'd you find how'd you find out because this is the first time now you get to spend a bit of time with the blokes that you read up on as a young fella?

SPEAKER_03 1:17:43

Yeah, no, they were cool. It was um yeah, obviously wicked unit, good blokes, got on well with them and um did a few things. I won't probably go into too much of what we did. They don't really like that, so I'll I'll leave it. But um, yeah, no, it was a good trip. And um the only thing I probably got out of it is I didn't want to do UK selection, not anything against the unit or any of that. I just the UK wasn't really my cup of tea, so yeah. I came back and I was pretty staunchly proud Kiwi at that point. Were they ch were they trying to nah they don't give a crap what you do? Yeah, but uh the good thing, like with the with the Brits, like if uh Kiwi or an Aussie um SAS goes over, they just welcome you straight into the and if you if if you're allowed to go anywhere, like the New Zealand government is happy for you to go somewhere, yeah, they'll take you.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:35

It's the same as like New Zealand and Australia. Yeah. The boys just like a hey machine just come straight across. Yeah, yep. Uh did you ever run into 2-2 SAS or even the Navy SEALs in their first rotation? Yep. You did? Yep.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:48

Uh not not 2-2, um Navy SEALs. Yeah, so our our um our little base was in Kandahar across from where the coffee shop and the PX was, and that was the big US Special Forces base. Yeah, and so there was US um the Army Special Forces were in there, and um we were in that, and then the SEALs were in there as well, so we'd um have beers with them.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:10

Yeah, yeah. That was cool.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:12

And you're like, oh, I wanted to be one of you boys. Yeah, once, but I grew up, I grew up for a fleeting moment, but you know, found something better.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:22

Um so you spend that time, like you said, with Tutu SAS uh on the long look. How long is that long look? They're normally pretty long, aren't they?

SPEAKER_03 1:19:30

Uh well, yeah, it's in the name. So no, it's about I think it's about four or five months. Is it yeah? Yeah, it's a long time. Yeah, it is, yeah. But yeah, it's right.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:40

Any talks of any further deployments again? Like I said, Iraq's kicked off, Timor has now kicked off again uh in that 2006 period. Uh any further talks about deployments when you get back?

SPEAKER_03 1:19:52

Uh well we were hoping it was just going to be an ongoing um every second year go over, but yeah, it didn't eventuate. So um after A Squadron came back, we were like, sweet, hopefully we can go over, and it didn't happen, and then it just didn't happen again, and then again. And um and we'd given away the black roll job a little bit to um C tag at this point. Uh there was a few guys still there, but it wasn't it wasn't any more the black roll, then green roll, then black roll, then green roll anymore. It was kind of just green roll, green roll, green roll, and then you might come and do something else. So um after a few years of that, I think because everything had been so good up to probably the end of long look for me, um I sort of it was a bit uh disappointing to not get away again, especially when there's uh you know a nice big war over there that we can get stuck into. Well, why is that?

SPEAKER_02 1:20:51

I don't know. Especially when the Australians like we're the you know the L SAS we're in and out, like it was constant by that stage, and not even to mention, you know, the New Zealand Defence Force 2nd First Battalion, they're over in Afghanistan doing their regular rotations. Yeah, yeah, I d I don't know. I don't know what it was. And they're losing guys too, they end up losing. Oh, yeah, later on, yeah. Yeah, later on.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:13

Yeah, so for me, um uh my morale was going down every year. Uh, and during that period, uh we were doing some good courses um and stuff, but training's just training, and uh I think I did one little CP trip. Well, I did do one little CP trip, um, so that was uh to Timor with one other guy, and um it was cool to go over, but it was more of just uh because we went around all the different FOBs with um the VIP and it was second verse was over there, so it was pretty much just crucial and saying good day to all the boys again and all that, so that was cool, but um that was it, and um so I got to 2009. 2009, yeah, uh sorry, 2009 I got put back onto the team uh with C Tag as uh assault group commander, and um that was good. Uh I learned a lot that year about uh leadership and how to run crews and uh how to run an assault crew and all that, so that was good and um finished that year. Uh one good thing I got out of that year was um working with guys that weren't uh badged because the badge guys have all got a certain mentality, they're all hard charges, and then you work with C tag, and I'm not knocking them, but they're very different mentality to the badge guys, and um working with them and managing them and all that. Um I just got heaps out of it because it was just a different type of person to work with. And uh that's the commandos, isn't it? Yeah, commandos, yeah. C tag they might have called themselves commandos at that point, but um yeah, they were they were good to work with, a good good bunch of guys, and um yeah, it was just it was interesting working with a different um different type uh group of people, so yeah, it's cool, but yeah, team's good, but then you don't want to do it for too long, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:12

Um sorry, just for the listener, break that down because again, you know, a lot of guys understand the Australian SAS how you know they're fully badged, but they go onto their on their uh tag west rotation, you know, as a badged operator, whereas New Zealand there's the the separation of obviously the operate badged operator, and then you've got uh the commandos that do a a shorter selection period but go into that CT role only. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:38

And uh I think that's all been closed down there anyway. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, so we they they kept them pretty close, and they had all the all the assault group commanders and and senior snipers or marksmen were still at that point, we're still all bashed, and uh and then we slowly just handed over the roles once they sort of got a bit of time. So yeah, I was kind of lucky to have a year just to have a look at it, and um yeah, it was all good.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:06

But during this 2009 period, this is where you're just like fuck man, like I want to go back overseas, you want to fight the war because the war is going on. Like I said, the Australian SAS are losing guys, commandos losing guys, even regular forces losing guys, there's a war going on, and you guys are stuck in New Zealand, yeah. And obviously, there's a few guys like Hamish and a few other guys that jump ship, come out here west, yep, and they're already on back-to-back rotations.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:31

Yeah, yeah, and we were hearing a bit about that, about that as well, and it was a bit um yeah, it was pretty jealous. So, but yeah, I was I kind of went through a stage where I was um losing interest and um morale was a bit low, and then uh I was started looking at getting out, and uh and then during that year on the team uh all I could see really in my future was um back to what I'd just been doing the last few years, and I was uh yeah, I was just getting over it as you do sometimes. And um and so we I started looking at doing something else and uh sort of kicked it off and um and then Wadia kicked off. Um towards the end of that year we got word, yeah, we're we're going over to so and what is that Wadia? Wadia's Wadia's the Kabul deployments. Yep. Yeah, so what what is that and like what does that entail? Uh that was when the uh unit took over the mentorship of CIU and uh cross response unit, and uh who are the special police for Kabul. And um so they they go out and do like high-risk arrests and stuff like that, and then they respond to all the big attacks in Kabul as well. So we had mentors over there and um and then strike troop guys as well, which would help. So um yeah, so it was just called Alp Atia, and then it was initially there was uh three tours. And um so because I'd sort of started a thing where I was gonna get out and do something else, I just went and seen them and said, uh because once I make a decision, I don't really go back. And um yeah, I went and seen them and I was like, uh, I can't I can't go on these white hairs. Um I'll just get out because I don't wanna you know you're either in the unit 100% or you're not, you shouldn't be there. And um so I I put my hand up and said I'll I'll just go. And uh the ECM or whoever I was talking to just says, nah, you don't need to go, um you can do your thing, just stay in and we'll put you in the office for a year and um give it a year and then we'll see where we're at. So I was like, okay. So I did that, it was like a research and development thing role, so I went into that. It was pretty hard that year watching the boys going away. Um, pretty depressing, really. Uh and then sort of halfway through that year, the CT course started, so I ended up instructing on that anyway, so because it was um pretty much in camp most of it. And then that year finished, my circumstances were different again, and it was kind of back to normal. And I was like, Yep, I can go to Afghan. So I let them know at the start of uh 2011, and um sorry, just prior to that word had come out that Watia had been extended by two more tours, and um, so that's when I said yeah, I can go. And um, I was hoping to get a spot on the last on the last tour. And uh it actually went better than that, though. C of the one that was the first extension tour was uh uh Watia 4, it's wrong in the notes, it's four, not five. Um he hit me up and he goes, I heard you can come come over. Um, do you want to come with us? And you can do a six-month- which is like a tour and a half, and I was like, Yep. And he was like, sweet, PDT starts on Monday, and I was like, Fuck yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:02

So yeah, it's pretty uh pretty heavy. So you your second rotation back to Afghan, this time into Kabul. Yep, get back into Kabul, mate. How you feeling? This is uh you're finally back. Oh and again, the war's kicked on at this day. This is 2011, 12, 10, 11, 12, it's on fire.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:22

Yep. Uh yeah, I can't even put into words how happy I was. Uh and um like for PDT, I'd the boys had been over uh already, and um so I'd had to, you know, I told myself I've got to pull my finger out. I'd been a saber squadron now for two years. Um the drills and skills had changed a bit. I had to I had to um you know make sure I got up to got up to speed, did that, and then um and then we headed over and um yeah it was awesome. And uh I was just back in shit, pretty much. Yeah, um we got we got there once we got over there we got um given our positions, so we just trained as a group, and then when we went over and then they gave us our spots and so Steve ended up being the uh group commander for Structroop, and initially I was in Struct Troop as well as the two I see, and um and then the other boys were the breaches and marksmen, things like that. So we all got our roles and then we just cracked on.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:24

And little did you know that 2011 period was going to be a a volatile period uh for yourself. Uh, you know, we'll talk about this down the track. Obviously, lose a couple of guys as well, um, which we'll talk about. But what what like you spoke about, the the Opaardia is to train or you know, work alongside with the CRU in Kabul. How'd you find them?

SPEAKER_03 1:29:47

Uh so initially I was uh with Strike Troop, so you'd only really see them on the missions. Gotcha. And uh maybe you might go up to Sroby and help the mentors out because a few of us went, not me initially, a few of us went over down and you stay at CIU as and you get a whole squadron to be the mentor for, so like 45 guys or whatever. So in Strike Troop, you might go and help them out, but you don't really um get have too much to do with them. Um the mentors sort of take care of them and um you're just there to to help. out but um yeah they were uh they were developing from uh pretty low level the the Norwegians had them originally and then they handed them over to us and um yeah uh yeah they still needed a bit of help but they were slowly kind of getting a wee bit better and then um Rick who was was that first contact he was one of the mentors but he was on his way out and then after a month or so um they decided uh he had to be replaced and um because just the end of his tour and so someone else was coming over and then they just did a we shuffle and then they said to me oh you're going down as a mentor now and um so I was a bit gutted because I really liked Strike Troop at the time but um when I got down to the mentor role it was actually awesome.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:15

What's just on the strike group stuff like what what what's the role here?

SPEAKER_03 1:31:18

Are you guys hitting targets with the CRU or yeah you just go out with them and and you we were trying to work with them to hand over the role uh or hand over capability. As they got better they could do more and the previous tours had um done a lot of work to get them up to the standard they're at now and then our this rotation was about half the size of the first three that went over uh with kiwis so we were that was and and we were just handing over more um as we could so you know you might not do the whole cordon for them or you might not be up the ladders you can they get to the point where they can go up the ladders in a cordon or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:59

So did you get out on any jobs before before the big one?

SPEAKER_03 1:32:03

Yeah yeah there was a quite a few um yeah pretty much just it was all at night too we didn't I don't think we did any day jobs. Yeah we're still working at all anything was it kinetic or um no it was pretty quiet up until there we did um bit of breaching and that explosive breaching and and stuff but I don't think we had any um any shots fired at us.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:26

Yeah and how how like how were they working with them?

SPEAKER_03 1:32:30

Because we know that the Afghan I think um as Afghans go they're pretty good pretty good yep but um yeah you they needed a bit of management.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:42

Yeah a bit of management now I guess this is again just like your first rotation this is where it all changes added to military history because um we spoke about this offline you know we're uh obviously the the the the Christian craighead stories come out about the Nairobi stuff and you know this is something similar of of the same of the same effect essentially uh obviously it was just Christian Craighead by himself you at least had a couple of guys with you but you know similar effect where the Taliban's gone in killed a whole bunch of people taken this hot you know this hotel hostage and mate let's let's go through this because uh it's not uh it's not a well known thing within you know I guess the civilian populace you know if you're in the military I guess you you probably there's probably people out there shaking their heads oh yeah I remember that I remember hearing about it and uh let's let's run through this mate because it's pretty significant especially with Steve Askin doing what he was doing as well. Yeah yeah yeah it was um can we have one more brook yeah mate yeah yeah yeah sorry this is where it gets juicy uh just bring that mic um uh back again another quick break we'll just about get into the juicy part again a lot of people have heard this story seen the pictures especially throughout the internet there's a couple of famous pictures that you've seen there's uh you know I again I'll put all these photos up and tag uh Tom's profile into this but like I said right at the start of the podcast is it the famous picture of you know Steve in the middle he's bleeding from the face because he's had half his ear shot off Jamie Pennell you're there and obviously the photographers just got an absolute crack and it's like a it's like a movie poster.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:38

Probably could be a movie one day but mate let's run through this day let's run through how this all eventuates you know hopefully you're not sleeping in front of your uh Humvee this time yeah uh fortunately not yeah okay um so it started uh about 10 o'clock at night uh roughly and uh we were all down at CAU and there was uh me Hamish and Paul uh with the mentors and then we had a IC and two IC there as well and um uh everyone was pretty much going to bed and I I went out I don't know if I was having a smoke or a cup of tea or something and um I heard all these vehicles revving and um yelling and dirker durking and things like that. And uh I went out and um the vehicles were going out the gate already and um I just yelled out of them I was like fuck's going on and um and the pretty much the last vehicle going around the corner um I just heard uh Taliban Intercontinental Hotel and then they were gone and I was like oh yep cool and uh so I went back and woke up uh knocked on Frank's door the I see and um told him uh CIU are deploying and he just got up and he just goes get everyone ready and um so we had to get the turp back he'd been allowed to go home for some reason that night um so it was about a 20 minute wait for the um turp to get back because we needed him uh but that was good because uh Hamish this isn't Hamish McGaughlin this is another Hamish um Hamish is out west by this stage out west living by the beach just living it up um so that gave Hamish uh he shot off and sorted out the grid to where we needed to go loaded into our tough book and so we weren't going too blind. And so Frank just says to us once Tup got in he's just like go if you can get in get in if you can't get if you can't get through the cordon come back and we're like yep okay so we uh jumped in the car I was uh riding shotgun Hamish was driving like a mad dog and uh we were just screaming through the streets trying to get there and um we hit the cordon and um whatever unit was there uh wouldn't let us through no matter what we said and um and so I had one of the my my my best CAU guy um on my phone his number so I gave gave my phone to the turp and I just said ring old mate and uh get us through that cordon and so he rang him and then they were blah blah blah and then he just started directing us go here this way go this way this way and then we pulled in and then there was uh we could see the CAU guys and the their vehicles and stuff like that and they just waved us straight straight through so um we we got through there and um I rung the it seemed pretty big already like when we were talking to the cordon earlier we could the door was open we could hear gunfire and things like that um so I'd rung the SSM back at camp and uh asked for strike troop and um so that got underway and then we got in and um got out of the cars and started heading up this road towards the hotel and um we got a ah sorry the SSM had told me um I've got a channel for ISR they're above the hotel uh Gimme Ring so uh jumped on the radio talked to him I was like hey man it's uh Sabre5 Charlie I'm I'm at the hotel I've been told to give you a yell and he goes yeah man um uh we got eyes on the roof there's about six guys on the roof they're armed with uh RPKs AK 47s and RPGs and they're waiting in an ambush position for anyone that comes out so it's like cool cheers and uh so we were going up the road walking up the road to this uh they had a building like just below the hotel that they were using as a um sort of form up um place so we're heading to that and um and then we got our first view of the hotel and uh it was in in CT terms for New Zealand it would be known as a two-team option which is pretty much deploy the entire unit because it was quite big it was five decent sized floors and uh seeing that plus knowing that they were up on the roof because they'd cut the power so the uh terrorists were couldn't really go inside the hotel and kill everyone that was like the best thing that they did was they cut the power so it stuck them up on the roof at least while it was night time anyway. Um so yeah saw the hotel and then um couldn't talk back to um base now on the phone because it was too hard with the peltles and all that shit on so I just rang up I I said to Hamish I said we need halo snipers man and uh and he goes well we won't get them and I was like oh well fuck I'm asking anyway so I jumped on uh to the ISR again and I asked him to relay a message back to uh HQ and I just said we need halo snipers and um left it at that and so we uh went up and went into that little building and the OC of my squadron was there so my squadron was the uh squadron responding and the uh M O I which was the Afghan minister uh of interior that was in there he he uh he always liked to come down to these things and get involved and um so because my squadron was on point uh Hamish and Paul kind of told me like you can you can do the talking and um I would have been happy if someone else had do it but anyway. So yeah I had a quick talk to the uh MOI and uh through through the terp and it was he goes how many of you're there and I said oh there's three but uh more are coming and he goes uh oh and then I said um I've I've requested your support I think he thought I meant I was gonna get a bomb dropped on the hotel yeah and uh he goes no I don't want the building destroyed and I was like oh can we bother explaining what a helo sniper was so I was just like yeah okay good and then um and then he just goes uh I'm ordering CIU to assault are you going with them? And I said yep and then that was that and um and so we started moving up to the hotel and uh just the three guys three of us yeah and the two yep and we didn't really have we didn't have um we didn't really we weren't equipped for it was the strike troop guys that carried all the heavy gear you know the the breaching gear and all that sort of stuff so we were quite light um so we went in uh went up to the hotel and um there was a lot of firing going on uh from the roof down and all the cordon and all that were all firing back up as well and uh I th I thought I might not get much of a go that night you know I wasn't sure how the night was going to go and I was like you know I at the end of this night I want to say I fired a few rounds so I just got in there as well and uh popped up a few rounds into the roof just to uh just to tick that off for the night because it'd been a while between um little did you know yeah between shows for me so I just thought yeah uh and actually that was good because when I aimed at the um aimed up there I realized that my peck was playing up it was it was quite faded. Um it was like it was flat but it wasn't it was just it wasn't its normal brightness and that actually um sort of had a bit of a influence on on stuff later on for me. And um so yeah did that and then we're trying to get to the lobby and um there was you know the big open ditches they have um yeah I managed to fall into one of those and uh landed on my hand slashed my hand open so that was shit and then um got to the lobby found some CIU and then yeah we all we all got in there and um there was the CIU guys were there us and then there was a few other different agencies in there as well there was a dead body of a uh terrorist on the stairs in there and uh he'd been shot by a uh security guard and um and so we were I was trying to hold uh hold CIU back because I wanted Strike Troop to be with us. Um it was a massive job and uh I didn't want I didn't want to commit when I knew I had a strike troop coming and uh we could commit better. They had the tools so I was trying to slow down the CIU and um so I was kept telling the OC no wait we wait we wait for strike troop and um and then this thing they CIU whip around the lobby because it was lobby was like a little side building off the side of the big big main uh five story building and uh CIU whipped around and uh sort of started at least clearing that around the around the top floor of the lobby and they came across the I think it was the security guard that had killed that um that terrorist and so he was shooting at them and they're all yelling at each other and um all that and uh pretty much neither side knew who the other side was and they were all shooting themselves and um which is fair enough. It was dark and um CAU hadn't bothered to bring their MVGs as well so that was uh a fairly relevant point. And um so yeah and then straight away and I knew it was going to happen it was kind of part of the reason why I didn't want to get in there was uh they were just yelling Kiwis Kiwis Kiwis and they wanted us to come up there and sort it all out so we went up and uh yeah it was a bit more yelling and and stuff and then eventually got sorted and he came past and he'd pissed himself because he was terrified and um fair enough so uh CIU got him out and then we were back into the lobby again and uh the OC wanted to assault because he was on obviously under massive pressure from the um from the uh MI he was just on his phone all the time pretty much being yelled at and um it was kind of getting uh to the point of uh unraveling in the sense it was getting quite tense like I was arguing with the OC he was going we commit we commit or we assault we assault and I was like huh nah wait for strike troop wait for strike troop and um I think he was just about to tell me to piss off and um and then I heard Jamie's voice come up over a uh over my earpiece and uh Jamie's always on an inviter he doesn't carry anything more than that so I kind of that gave me an idea of how far away they were and I was like yep they're here and uh I just said strike troop uh here five minutes and um and he's like alright so yeah they came in uh I got on comms with them comms got a bit better as I got closer and uh I just told them head to the lobby and look for my uh IR beam so I went out IR beamed and they flashed back and then um yep got them in and they came across one at a time ran over and uh the the only one I remember seeing it was Steve because he had this massive even under MVG I could see this massive shit eating grin on his face because he was ready to rock and um yeah it was cool I was just I hadn't seen him for a while we shook hands and uh yeah it was good to see them and um gave a quick uh handover to uh Jamie and then uh I just said yep C Sword was here and we were ready to go. How many guys in the strike team? Oh they brought all the add-ons as well so we've got medic engineers um but it was a handful like one two maybe five yeah six plus you three plus us yeah yep um yeah so got into it and um strike troop ended up being up the front straight away uh CAU yeah I said they didn't have an MVG so um but we still wanted them with us uh so strike troop started clearing and then I was uh Hamish jumped in with Strike Troop because he didn't have any CAU to worry about and then um I think Paul did too as well a bit and he was I think he was also helping with the CAU but I was managing the CAU trying to keep them behind us uh well not I didn't want to lose didn't want to break or a gap between Strike Troop and and CAU so I was kind of looking at that and then um we got to the first floor and uh we we we mucked around anyway got through a few places went through the lobby there was a dead body uh on the in the internet room sitting on his chair well I don't know if he's sitting on his chair but he's in there I can't remember but um so he'd been emailing and then uh the terrorists had just walked around and bite him away and um we got to the first floor and started kicking in the doors um we didn't have enough explosives or shotgun rounds to be able to take out every door as we would want to uh so we kind of were conserving that so we there was a bit of door kicking going on and um kind of got to the point where each these doors were quite heavy uh like pretty solid and uh they took a bit of work and we would just we'd kick a door in and then it was um you know there might be someone in there and then we'd we'd clear the room and then we'd be like you know stay here and then we close the door and then we'll pretty much just fuck their door but then we fuck off so sorry I gotta stop swearing. But um but we did that for a bit and then it was taking too long and um we knew they were all up on the roof. So the call was made nah we're just gonna stop clearing these rooms and get up there to where we know there's at least a good group of them and um and sort that out so uh we were still clearing the open spaces but we weren't we weren't clearing the hotel rooms. So yeah fast forward got up to the say fourth floor I think it was the fourth floor and um do the fire firewell? Yeah steer wells yeah we've got to do steel well clear a bit of that floor and go back out and then so it was a long hotel and at each end there was the steel wells and uh we were working on one and uh I was out in out in the hallway uh with the CAU um and few you know everyone else and then the strike troop boys Steve Jace Hamish uh Willie and uh I think I think Paul was with them. Yeah um they were in the stairs and they were going up and I was on the fourth floor so they just had the fifth floor and then the roof and um they were all in there and um so and I won't try and explain the this part in the sense that I didn't see it so I'm not gonna Chase will tell you when he gets on exactly how it all rolled. But uh I know Steve pretty much met a guy head on and they both engaged each other and uh Steve got him and uh I think he might have run away or something and then died later but uh Jace got another guy uh he was right up there with Steve and uh I think Hamish I think was right up there as well but you know in a stairwell you sort of have your different spots so I don't I don't know exactly where everyone was and exactly what they did but uh you know when the ISR said they're up there and they're waiting in an ambush that these guys had walked straight into that and they were uh hooking in and they and they gave they fucking gave it to them as well. And uh so I got into the stairs and as soon as I walked into the stairwell there was one dude in front of me which was like the the back guy of the strike troop and um And so he was he had had a little gap that he could shoot up. It was you had to be careful because obviously there was guys further up, so um I was pretty careful. Uh I stepped in and helped him out because I was I could see where he was firing, so I I could put a little bit up in that area, but yeah, I didn't get too involved in that steel well assault, but um it was it was pretty full on for a little bit. But there was uh grenades coming down and uh you could hear the AKs and the stairs being fired, so we were all suppressed, and then you just hear the loud contrast of the AKs and that, and um, yeah, she was pretty loud. And the call got made eventually, uh, you know, this this stairwell was too well defended and someone's gonna get hurt, and um so I think everyone kind of started to head down past us back to the fourth floor, and they did a quick sort of head count or whatever, and uh no one could see Steve, and um I think they couldn't raise him on the radio for a second, it was all pretty quick, and then Jamie pokes his head in because I was still sort of with that other guy in front of me, like covering the stairs, we were about to come out as well, and he's like, Where's Steve? And I was like, Oh, up there, and he's like, We're gonna go fucking get him, and uh and so it was it was almost the point where we're gonna have to re assault the stairs to um to go get to go find him and we're just about to and then um I just thought hang on a minute, like this is Steve, he'll be alright, I'm sure of it. And uh I just said to the bro in front of me, I just said, just wait a sec. And um I just yelled out Steve, and I just heard this, yep. And then uh and I was like, come back down, bro. And he's like, Yep. And then uh he just he came back down. And uh he was laughing, like he had just had probably the greatest moment of his life. He was just yeah, he was real happy.

SPEAKER_02 1:54:29

And uh didn't didn't a grenade go off when he was concussed?

SPEAKER_03 1:54:32

Yeah, so um so we went we went out into the hallway and uh we had a bit of a lull time. I think Jamie was on the radio sorting things out with the choppers and planning and stuff like that. And me and Steve were knelt down in the corridor, sort of facing the way we're gonna go next, and uh he couldn't resist, he just had to tell me the whole story, quite ride there, and uh, you know, engage this dude and shooting. He was talking about the grenades and then and then he's and he was like cracking up, and because he was cracking up, I started cracking up, and then he was telling me like this grenade that he heard the dunk dunk down the stairs, and then he jumped out into the hallway, and then he heard the thud thud of it lightly bouncing on the carpet of the of the hallway, and then he was just like, Oh shit, and then he just went jumped into the corner, covered up, and uh took it and it and it and it went off. So yeah, he's telling me this, and we're both pissing ourselves laughing. Um and you know, like when you're at school and someone's and you're laughing in class and you're not supposed to, and it makes it even funnier. Yeah, so we were like, oh, I had tears coming down my face. I was laughing so hard. So that was a good little intermission um for us uh on this job. Um, bit of a laugh. So uh yeah. Uh call got made, we're gonna head down and check out the uh other stairwell. So uh strike troop headed off, and uh I got back to sorting out the CAU following along behind. That's that stairwell was they couldn't come down the stairs really anyway, because they it was dark and they you know they didn't want to leave the roof, but it got sort of sealed and held by the CAU, so or members of the CAU. So we moved on, um, and then the strike troop did a covert clearance of the stairs to the top, and um they'd been in there for a little while, and then I came up with CAU, and then they were kind of behind me, and then I went into the stairs and uh went up and um just to see what the boys were up to and what they'd seen. So at the top of the stairs was a closed door, um locked, and um when I when I seen them, I could see one of the boys putting on uh explosive charge. And um at this time, or maybe a little bit before uh the Blackhawks had come in, and uh two of two of our uh shooters and our troop commander were on the Blackhawks, and um they had started doing their circuits and uh hooking into these dudes up on the roof. And um Yep, it was just uh you could just hear tons of gunfire and um both both ways um suppressed and uh the enemy firing back. Uh choppers were coming in real close, or pretty close, so that was allowed as well. And then um now and then there was just the massive explosion of a uh well you know a vest going off when one of them up there had had enough of being uh chewed up by the by the snipers. So uh yeah, the the boys and the choppers, I mean they did the ground to the the bulk of the business, but um yeah. So they did that. That was all happening. We were in the stairs ready to go. Uh I went back down to the CIU to try and get them to come up and help us in the assault, and uh they had kind of reached the point where they uh didn't want to they weren't gonna come up anymore, like they weren't chickening out or anything or bailing on us, they were just like there was limits to how much courage they had, and the noise in that stairwell was phenomenal. It just sounded like um maximum violence up on that roof, and uh any normal person probably didn't want to be involved, so you know CAU had families to go home to, and they uh didn't really want to get too involved, but um we did so um yeah, so Jamie calls out, we were getting ready, getting closer to uh going in. Jamie calls out to me, he goes, Tom, uh, I need you to come up here. I need you, I need you up here. And I was like, Yeah, yeah, cool. Um went up, the boys were stacking up, and um Jamie calls uh black eagle, which just means ready to go. Uh the Helos got pulled away, and you could hear them getting uh further away because I'd pretty much done most of the damage they needed to. And uh uh Jamie's pep talk, and this is only how I remember it, and I could be wrong, um, but he pretty much because everyone was getting ready to you know do a bit of business, and uh all he said was uh that I can remember was um alright boys listen up we're gonna fuck these cunts and that was it, and then he goes, Yes, it's alright, and I was like, We we were all like yep, and then that was it because we had no plan because we didn't know what we were about to walk into, so uh let's just get out there and get into it.

SPEAKER_02 1:59:57

And uh And so just quickly, you all you knew that they all had suicide vests on? Um I think so, yeah. Yeah, because there was no as a exit strategy for those guys, that was yeah, gunfight, kill them, blow blow up, yeah, killing in the fidelity.

SPEAKER_03 2:00:15

This is our first one, so um yeah, I mean later on you get a bit more idea of the mentality, but this one, yeah. I'm not yeah, we didn't really think about that. We just we just had it we just had to get out there and sort out whatever was out there. So um so yeah, the choppers had pulled back, and then it was just uh Jamie gets on the radio just so everyone's aware, like the supporters and all that um that are around the area, and the guys in the choppers, he just did it for clarity, I suppose, and then he just goes, uh yeah, all call signs I have control, stand by, stand by, go boom, blew the door. Uh we all shuffled up to uh towards the door to get out onto the roof, and there was a steel bar across the door at uh the exact height that pretty much stuffed up our entry, um, like with all our gear on and all that, it was just it was uh in a shit spot. So we kind of all got around the door as with the momentum, and then um I think Jamie was behind a couple of us and he couldn't see the steel bar, and he's like, get the fuck out there, and we were like, and uh and one of the boys goes for his shoddy to take care of that steel bar, and um, and while he's doing that, a couple of the other boys were fanning out frag grenades out onto the roof just to uh keep things going. Blew the steel bar, and then uh we made entry onto the roof, and uh, it's just left, right, left, right, left, right out the door and see what we see. And um, I was about third or fourth out, um, and I went left, and there was like a little building at the top of the stairs, and I just went around that. I knew I had one guy in front of me, and uh when I got around and I seen him, uh I orientated the same way he was facing, and we were facing down the long way of the roof, um with the max the most amount of roof in front of us, and there was the generator building a little bit further down, and um I was expecting uh because of that talk about um uh an ambush position waiting for us, we didn't know what uh had been done by the choppers, so I was still expecting that. So I was kind of expecting to be walking into uh into locking arcs of uh a couple of machine guns or something like that, like and uh so I was kind of ready to find cover or something and I was trying to look out as far as I could around that generator building in case something uh some muzzle flash or something went off. Uh the guy next to me uh had already found a dude who was lying on the ground in front of us, um probably just eight metres away, and um he had a suicide vest on and uh um the bar already had a beam on him, and uh I just looked down as soon as I seen that suicide vest, I mean that's an imminent threat, I just said shoot him. And um, so he put a few rounds into his guts, and uh I just looked down to make sure there was no reaction because if he was alive, he was gonna take us all out with his last breath, you know. So um so I looked down, no reaction at all. He was uh he was gone. And um and so I said, Yep, he's dead, let's go. And me and that guy started moving forward, and also all the boys that had come out, they'd they'd cleared the little bit of the roof to the uh the ones that had gone right out the door, it cleared the little bit of the roof to the back, and they'd swung around now and they were up in line with us. So now we're in an extended line, just walking down the rooftop of the hotel, and uh the guys just were shooting at um anything they needed to. Uh we knew everything on that rooftop uh needed to die, so there was no there was no need to worry uh that we were gonna you know hurt someone that didn't need to be hurt. So yeah, I mean if there was a leg that needed to be shot, it was. If there was a radar dish that someone could be behind, put a few through it. Um and uh as we moved around a few radar dishes and bits and pieces, I ended up on the extreme left-hand side of the assault line. And uh we were all just yelling uh back to Jamie what we could see, trying to give him as much info. Uh to my front, I had a uh we were walking up on the generator building now, I had a closed door in the corner, and I had this walkway uh probably about a meter wide going down the side of the building. And um so I was covering both of those as I as I walked up, and that that walkway was real dark. I think it was like the angle of the moon or something like that. It was like pitch black down there, and my MVGs couldn't penetrate it, and my uh pec, the laser in my pec, because I like I said it was it was playing up. Um I had a dot, but it wasn't very bright, and the flood was no good either, so I couldn't see anything, and uh so I was just like oh fuck it, and I just started firing down that walkway um using clearance by fire. Uh and so I got about um eight rounds through my mag, and then right where I was firing, and uh I was looking straight at it, and this massive explosion just kicked off, and uh that was down the opposite corner of the building at the end of that walkway, and it was just um massive, massive explosion, and uh seeing that through the MVGs was fucking spectacular. It was like I was just like fucking hell, and um I just kept shooting in the same place down that walkway and kept walking towards the corner of that building and um yelled out uh yelled out one dead atomie, and uh I kind of cracked myself up there because uh you sort of say that in battalion stuff, but you don't normally do that in CT. But um yeah, and uh yeah, I was just kind of one of the boys remembers hearing me say it and he kind of cracked up as well. So yeah, gotta keep yourself amused. But anyway, yeah, so I just kept firing and um got to the corner of that building and uh pretty much was on empty mag at that point, took a knee, uh reloaded and uh called up. I'm gonna prop at this corner, and um the rest of the boys were moving around the right-hand side of the building, and um they were up there throwing grenades, uh, heard a bit of shooting and everything like that, and they were just up there coming around the building, uh, making sure that everything that needed to be shot was shot and and all that and finishing it off. Uh, once their beams were coming across my beam at the other side of the building, I sort of knew they were coming this way on the other side, and then um, and then it sort of all went quiet, and uh, I was like, oh yeah, we're probably done now. And um, I remember some there was some movement behind me, and I looked around and about 8 CAU had actually fired us out onto the roof to back us up, which was mint, and um so that was cool. I kind of had our six, and then I walked down this walkway, and uh probably the smell uh came before what I could see, and um it was explosives or used explosives uh spent rounds, and then the copper, coppery blood smell of uh the pink mist or red mist or whatever you call it from all the uh suicide vests that had gone off, and um and then we once we'd everything was sort of settled down, we looked around and um yeah, there was just uh body parts everywhere and um it was mainly uh legs and guts. I think all the arms and heads probably took a trip off the side of the hotel, but um yeah, it was it was pretty pretty intense. So um that was the rooftop clearance for me. Um the boys I can't speak for guys the other guys as much because I wasn't with them around the other side of the building, but um, yep, they did what they needed to do and um everyone hooked in and um so uh the next thing I suppose that became apparent was that uh the building was on fire. Um I can't remember how the fire started or if it was deliberately lit. Um but the fifth floor was on fire. So we went into a phase of um going up and down all the hallways of the different floors, and this took a while, like and um banging on doors, and I remember I remember just banging on doors yelling out security forces, um buildings on fire, we have to evacuate. And so people were starting to come out of rooms now, and we were channeling them uh down the stairs to the kitchen with the uh CAU. And uh that was going on for a bit. I sort of slipped into CT mode and I was like helping with the evac, probably uh more than I probably would have wanted to, and uh ended up in the kitchen. I could see uh Bruce, our medic, he was helping out as well, but then I looked around and couldn't see any of the boys, and I was like, Where is everyone? And then uh called up, I was like, where is? And um they're like, Oh, we're up on the roof, and I was like, Oh yeah, and then I just looked around, I was like, I'm out of here, and just bailed and uh went back up the stairs to the roof where the uh boys were, and it was uh a bit of a uh battle damage assessment going on. Uh the engineers had cleared the vests. Um and then yeah, we had a camera, and once all that was done, we took a few happy snaps as well, because you know, even if it wasn't completely finished, we we we thought we were pretty much done, we'd done the the main bit, so that's all good. And um I think the sun had pretty much was had come up, and um I think CAU had gone home at that point, and then we uh started hearing gunfire again, and uh I can't remember what kicked it off or if it was the because we also started to hear that there was another terrorist on the fifth floor, and maybe he engaged the cordon just to get things moving again. Um but the cordon I think didn't know that we'd cleared the roof, maybe, and so it was yeah, there was just incoming, coming in, and we weren't too sure, so sorted that out. Uh we were I was crouched down uh behind the wall on the roof, and uh I could see a dude in the cordon and he'd been shooting at us, and then you know, those like uh he was like uh older Afghan investigator type dude who was on the roof with his brown suit and his pot belly and his greasy mustache and all that, and he just walked up while I was ducking for cover, and he just walks up and just leans over and just and then they were just stopped, and I was just like uh cheers bro. But um, yeah, some crazy stuff goes on uh with the Afghans, and um yeah, and then the call was made uh by Jamie um a little bit later, he's like, Yep, let's go down and sort this dude out. But um we didn't have CIU anymore, they were gone, so we went down to the fifth floor, split into two groups. Uh I think it was me, Tony, and um Paul that went one around one side and the rest of the boys went around the other. And uh that was when the cordon engaged. Um I think Steve threw a Steve was up the front, and I think um Steve threw a flashbang and that I think and then that uh put the shits up them, so they started shooting at them, and that's when they uh got shot up by the cordon again. So um we could hear that from the other side. We just cleared one dude and told him to piss off down the stairs, and we were trying to get another guy to come to us, and then when that started, we were like, nah, stop there. And then um we just went back and met up. Uh and during all that shooting, I just remember hearing Jamie on the radio saying, Um, we're gonna stop this, we need to stop this shooting. One of my boys has just been shot in the head, and um I was just like, oh shit. Like, we just you know, if you someone get shot in the head, you'd kind of assume they're dead. And um, so that was gutting, and I was just like fuck. And um, and so we went went round and met up, and uh first person I saw was Hamish, and I was like, Bro, who got shot? And he goes, Steve, and I was like, fuck. And um, so yeah, I thought Steve was dead, and um I was dealing with that, and then looked behind Hamish, and uh Steve was coming up behind him, and uh his hair was pissing blood, and he'd looked absolutely furious, and uh it's probably the maddest I've ever seen him. Um and uh yeah the call was made, it just wasn't safe to continue without CAU because of them and something like that had happened and CAU were there, they'd just get on the radio and go stop, and that they had the channels and the communication with the other units, but we didn't. It was a it was too dangerous. So if you can't even re rely on your own cordon to look after you, it was it was no Good, so um we got we we went down to the lobby, uh Steve got patched up by uh Bruce for a bit and then we headed to the cars and um it was like oh someone else can sort out and um uh Steve gave it to the cordon on the way out too um quite quite verbally and uh we went down and jumped in the cars and um started heading away and that was Steve Dunn, he had to go to hospital after that, and um we were driving uh that was when the picture was taken to when we headed to the cars. Yep just for a reference, and um so we were heading away back to CIU and we got a call from Frank, and it was uh he just goes, We're use, and we said we're heading back, and he goes, Turn around, go back to the hotel, CIU's been redeployed. So we're like, okay, cool. Went back in, went up to the lobby, and we were just chilling out in the lobby, and CIU arrived, and Jamie just tells him uh you just can go up and have a go. Um there's only one person and uh or one one guy up there, they reckon, and um, if you need us, we're here. So they went up and uh had a bit of a crack, and right in front of where Steve had been, uh where Steve I think had thrown his flashbang and and got hurt, um the CAU got booby trapped, and so this we heard a bit of a bang and that, and then um this guy came running down uh holding his arm and yelling and screaming and shit and ran past us all. So uh yeah, Jamie was like, alright, come on, let's go. So we went up and um went up to the fifth floor, and when someone had told us the room that they thought that he was in, they reckon they'd seen him go into one of the rooms. I can't remember the numbers. And I uh I we um started clearing the corridor and uh we kicked we were just kicking doors in because we still had minimum reaching gear. I think we were gonna give give the room that we thought he was in probably something special, but we didn't have enough gear to do everything. But um so there's a bit of kicking going on and and and stuff, so we cleared a few rooms and um got to uh got to the point where I was I was I'd pinched some water out of one of the fridges and I was having a scale because it was about ten o'clock in the morning, I think, at this point. And we were we kicked a few doors in and then we were like, you know what, CIU get up here and help you kick some doors in as well, because we were kind of doing everything. And uh so they were kicking indoors as well, and uh, I was having a drink of water, and uh Willie was up on one door and he had an and he was helping or encouraging, I suppose, one of the Afghans to keep booting this door in. And so I moved forward to uh sort of I just thought I might be round about my turn soon again, you know, like you just rotate through, and uh I moved up, so I was standing next to this Afghan dude uh giving him a bit of encouragement as well, and I was just like harder, harder, and he's kicking it and kicking it, kicking it. And then um just as the door was about to uh open, probably next kick, uh it just all blew up in our faces, and uh three of us got blown off our feet pretty much and uh dropped to the ground. Uh my M4 got blown out of my hands, and um Yep, so I hit the ground and didn't know what it was, could have been another booby trap, and then it might have been a follow-up attack of you know, someone just walking out the door and skimming us a spray or something. So uh I pulled my pistol out and I was like trying to cover the door and I was trying to crawl backwards to get away as well, and um and I crawled my I pulled sort of pulled myself across the corridor into an opposite room and there was no one else in there and it was already been cleared and there was no one else in there, and uh there was all the screaming and shit going on from the CAU. Um both those other two dudes had been really badly hurt, and um so I yeah, I called into this room and I was just lying on my back in the middle of this room and I was like patting myself down and I was still trying to work out what had happened, but I was like patting myself down for major bleeds, and I thought I'm alright. And I sat up and I had some bright blood trickling down onto my plate carrier, and I was just like checking my throat to make sure it wasn't coming out of there, but it was nothing, it was just sort of like a a um bit of a nick on the face, but it did give me a bit of a fright uh seeing that seeing that blood, but I was fine, and then um uh the other two had been smashed, so the CIU dude had ball bearings all up his legs, and um we found out later Willie had like uh ball bearings in his lung and stuff like that. But pretty much as soon as that almost immediately after the explosion going off, um Hamish just ran in and uh grabbed Willie. Like didn't even stop to look at uh Cesswort what it was, he just grabbed him and got him out and uh dragged him into another room and then handed him off. And um and then so I got up, just had my still just had my pistol, and then uh Hamish came back up to the front, and then we were in the hallway. Uh sorry I was still in the room, and then the boys were just yelling out to CAU like, get up there and get your men. Like um, we weren't being cruel, but we were still there to teach them, and if we do everything for them, even under contact, um, when they're there and they can they can do it, uh they're not gonna learn anything. So yeah, the boys were like, get up there and get your men. So eventually a couple of CAU guys went in and grabbed grabbed uh their guy and got him out. And um so after that I went back out in the corridor and and Hamish was there, and he's like, Oh um, shall I frag that room? And I was like, Yeah, bro, I got you. And um, so I covered the door for him and he uh he fragged it and I put some suppressing fire into that door frame and um until the grenade went off and pied that door and poked my head in and there was nothing no one really there, but there was ordinance and shit on the ground, so I didn't I don't want to be walking all over that in case something went off, so I just clad it good enough from the hallway, and then uh Jamie's like calls out, and that was when he goes, Um was that a booby trap or a suicide bomber? And uh looked down and I was like suicide bomber, and he goes, How do you know? Oh, his head's in the door jam. And um So that was cool, and um So when you were just about to breach that door, he's detonated. Yep, yeah, yeah. So he yeah, he was he was just on the other side, and um that was just luck, like he could have done anything differently, he probably would have killed us all. He could have just opened the door and clacked off, yeah. Or he could have waited for us to kick the door open and clacked off. Exactly, yeah. But he was a dumbass, and he yeah, used the door as a shield. Well, the door was pretty much a shield, and um, and that's probably the only thing that saved us. So yeah, so we were just standing in that doorway, and um one of the boys found my M4 underneath all this shit and uh gave it to me, and then uh gave that a quick test fire into the room to make sure it worked, and um that was it, we were done. Yeah, and um it's too many casualties for a for a small team to do stuff we don't need to do so other people can take care of the rest, so we we moved off.

SPEAKER_02 2:22:52

So you move off get back in the cars, head back to base.

SPEAKER_03 2:22:57

Yeah, strike went back to warehouse, and we went back to the CIU initially, and um had a bit of a breaky to I see, chuck some eggs on for us, and then uh it was all high fives and uh war stories for them. And um, yeah, we were pretty buzz, we were buzzing. It was it was a work at night. It was it has to be like I won't say like my entire life, but work-wise, it was the best night of my life. Yeah, yeah, that's crazy, isn't it? The best night of your life, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:23:33

And uh most of the boys probably thought the same thing. Yeah, yeah, of course, of course. Um like you said, uh you know, Jace has put up some footage, you know, a week later, you boys go back and relive it.

SPEAKER_03 2:23:49

Yeah, yeah. Did a bit of a walk around and um yeah, just sort of rehash and try and remember where you were and what you did and and all that was it was quite good actually. Going to kind of back and it's a bit of a strange feeling.

SPEAKER_02 2:24:03

Well it is, because you know, like any other scenario, especially if you're out in the in the boonies, you don't really you do that on-site exploitation when you're there, and that's it. You you don't go back there again, pretty much.

SPEAKER_03 2:24:15

Yeah, we're um I was up on the roof when we went back, and there was still like little bits of bone and meat and everything on the roof and stuff like that, and uh yeah, it's it's different. But yeah, so that was it.

SPEAKER_02 2:24:29

And how does that shape the rest of that rotation? Because again, this is where the another couple of attacks similar happened.

SPEAKER_03 2:24:37

Yeah, um, no, it was awesome. Like for us, we got back, everyone was happy, none of us had been killed, so few little injuries, no biggie. Um yeah, morale was massively high after that, and um CAU were I think appreciative of uh the help and like they could rely on us that we'd step up when they needed us, and um and down at the mentor group, um yeah, a lot more of the CIU were a lot a lot warmer, like they weren't cold, but they sort of they they were they were happy with us, yeah. Yeah, so it was good. So it was actually a really good um training scenario as well. Oh yeah, but uh it was just a good buzz, it was a good vibe in the deployment for everyone. Leaving was just happy, it was just it was just good, and we were just looking forward to cracking on.

SPEAKER_02 2:25:31

Which which you did, you did crack on, and then there was uh you know multiple other jobs. Yep. Uh one down in Wardock province. Yep, yep.

SPEAKER_03 2:25:41

Um Steve doing what Steve does best. Yeah, the uh the great lone wolf mission. Um did you do you know about it?

SPEAKER_04 2:25:50

I do know about it. Yeah, let's do it. Oh okay again, mate. Is it another story about Steve?

SPEAKER_03 2:25:55

Yeah, um, I'll just do the like a brief, yeah. Yeah, I won't like over detail it. But um, yeah, there was this uh HVT we wanted to get. Um he had killed or been part of the killings of some Norwegians, I think, Norwegian soldiers. And um the thing about this one was that if he they'd they'd tried to get him before and he had caves nearer where he was. Um so uh the idea was that we uh take the bikes, that's what Strike Troop came up with, we're KTM 55s. Um Steve had been an outrider, I think Hamish might have been as well in the earlier deployment, so they were both good on the KDMs, and um so we took those. So if we went for a run for these caves, um we could we could get them. So for this, I was in the cordon, I was attached to the cordon force, there's a couple of us just to help with that, and we uh went in on Chunnox, landed, got out, and started the walking, it was about a K or something to target, and uh we had ISR and they came up and said we got two squirters quite soon after getting out of the choppers. So just heard the bikes, we were just walking as quick as we could. Heard the bikes um rev up and boys were gone. And uh all I heard was what was coming over the radio, and it was just Steve, and then first one he just goes uh comes up and he goes, Oh I've lost I've lost Hamish, and I don't know what happened to Hamish, I can't remember if I yeah, I'm not sure, but we we lost comments with him before we were. But um so Steve was on his own, and then um next time he comes up he goes, Oh, I'm off my bike, but I'm gonna keep going on foot because we had them ISR so you could you could see kind of where they were, those the sparkle. And um and so he was on foot now, and uh yeah, every time he rang up, Jamie's just like, yep, keep going, and then um and then Steve comes up next one you hear is just contact and he'd just chased these two dudes down in the desert by himself and uh taking them out. They were uh armed, imminent threat, gone. See you later.

SPEAKER_02 2:28:15

Well, what's the separation between you guys and Oh they were a fair way away, I think.

SPEAKER_03 2:28:20

Like it took us a while to We were still we were still heading for the compound to do the job for and So a good few hundred metres.

SPEAKER_04 2:28:27

Because we couldn't keep up oh yeah, probably kilometer. Yeah, it was a bit it's it was he was on his own. And that was all on ISR feed?

SPEAKER_02 2:28:35

Yep. Footage is out there somewhere, I gotta get that.

SPEAKER_04 2:28:44

That's epic. You know what I'm talking about. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:28:47

That's epic. That's epic. So he's done that, he's chased these two dudes, these two fighters down, killed them, yep, done his job, and then what yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:28:56

So we carried on with the job, uh, did the cording of the compound, um, but we also had guys branch off and go up and support him to um do the BDA on the targets. And that's just who he was.

SPEAKER_02 2:29:11

Yep. He's just a go-getter.

SPEAKER_03 2:29:13

You give him a job, he gets it done. Fuck an understatement.

SPEAKER_02 2:29:17

Yeah, no, he was he was awesome. Yeah, yeah, right, mate. And um again, moving forward, you know, uh again, this is not the first time you have to deal with another explosive charge, but there's another job here. This is where you're again now heavily involved in on this job with another uh Taliban siege uh style scenario, mate. Run me through this one.

SPEAKER_03 2:29:42

Yeah, cool. So it was uh we call it the JMK job. Um it was uh a guy called John Muhammad Khan, who was a pretty high-up advisor or um politician or something, Karzoy, and uh I think from memory he had a bit of influence down south, but he had a house in Kabul. And um the story is, and I might might not be bang on with this, but a bit of background is that a couple of tab Taliban guys came in, got searched, they want to talk to him, um, had a chat, left, came back, the security guard thought, oh, I've already searched you, I don't need to do it again, so let him in, and then uh this time they had AKs and um did their job, killed JMK, and then uh held siege to the building. So uh started off very similar to uh Intercontinental Hotel, uh around roughly the same time of night, and uh same thing, they just all um jumped in their cars yelling and all that and then took off. And uh we had to follow them and find find out where they were going and uh follow them. So caught up with them by the time the only difference this time we took uh the IC and two IC of the mentors came with us, which was good because they um they could control different things outside, you know, liaison and stuff like that. So we had a few more people and a bit more support. Uh went in and um caught up with CAU, they'd already committed an assault, and uh they'd got one of the Taliban and but they'd taken a KIA as well, so they'd pulled back, and it was uh the top floor that they couldn't clear. So uh the plan they wanted to do was uh come down from above. So we uh I'm fast-forwarding heaps of this because I just don't want to bore bore everyone with too much detail, but uh yeah, we just went to a neighbouring building, climbed up, and then uh Strike Troop arrived pretty quick, they were already with us, so it was good. Um it definitely wasn't anything like the hotel, so yeah, it wasn't as big a deal, but it was still something. Um and then uh Jamie sent uh CAU jumped over, Jamie sent us over first, the mentors, and then um and then Strike Troop followed. Uh one funny thing for me was um CAU had obviously been talking amongst themselves and they'd watched uh we'd cleared the roof of the hotel, and uh I think they thought that clearance by fire was the new flavor of uh how to do things, so they jumped onto this rooftop and they were just shooting the shooting the shit out of everything to clear it, um, which was funny, but it was no, whatever. Um, so yeah, so they cleared the roof and then they got down into the level below, and it was like a steel well, and then there was a landing, and then there was a few rooms, um doors for that floor. It was I think it was a two or uh three floor, maybe a three-story building. So this was the only this was the only level we had to deal with, and it wasn't huge. And uh so for what it was, uh we didn't think we were gonna be needed at all. It was just one dude. We just thought CAU would go and sort them out. So we just sent them down. And uh initially it was my squadron to IC running it, but um until someone else turned up. So uh so they went down, um, cleared what they could on that floor, and they hit the terrorist who was in this room, which was like uh highly barricaded. Well, it was like a bathroom, but it was uh it was a good position to be held up on, like he was he was dug in pretty much. He had solid walls all around him, and then all he had to do was watch this door, and anyone that came there, he could just nail them. And um, but it was narrow too, so it was hard to it was a it was a good position anyway. So see how he got down there, they found him, and then they had a few uh shoot-ups with him, and they uh couldn't couldn't handle him. Uh well they couldn't get to him for a while, and uh so I went down at one point I went down just down the stairs, see how they were going, and um I had the turp and I was just talking to the yelling out to the two IC above the over across the landing. I was like, have you cleared all these rooms around you? And his the CIU was like, No, we haven't got our shotguns, and brought their shotguns or MVGs again. And uh so I was like, Oh, you need you need to clear those rooms, so UJAKs, shoot the locks off, get them cleared, because it could have been anything behind any of those doors. So they did that, and so now that was good because they had more rooms that they could use for cover and and things. So uh at one point they did an assault and uh I don't know, I can't remember if he either got grenaded or shot, but one of the CIU went down and um they they pulled back and the terrorist walked up on him and um I think he like kicked him or put another round into his vest, but he was just playing dead, and he was dead as he was down there for ages, and uh and then eventually he jumped up and um and ran away and the CIU got him and dragged him out. So yeah, they were having problems, and um got to about three in the morning, and uh another squadron OC had turned up at this point, so it was good. I was just up on the roof chilling out with uh strike boys and um and uh Paul was having to um kind of do the liaising with CAU, but it got to the point it was uh they were under pressure to get things done by first light and uh the CAU pretty demoralized that they couldn't even do this little job. Um they'd lost a guy and uh they were they just looked defeated, they'd run out of ideas, they'd had a few good cracks at it. And um Paul just says to the uh OC, um, Do you want us to take over? And he goes, Yes, yes please. And he's like, Are you sure? And he goes, Yep, take over. So it was like, All right. So um we were all up on the roof and we went we all went down and um first thing was uh lights. Got killed, so we went MVGs. And um then we had a guys were prepping a bit of shit, charges and things. And then uh Jamie got a few of us in for ideas. Uh and there wasn't really much else we could do at that point because we needed to go in and see what was going on, see the layer of the land. So he just goes, Yep, all right, this is what we're doing. Uh up the front assault. Oh the guts assault. Everyone good? And we're like, yep. So um got ready and then yep, start the assault. So uh I ended up at the front actually, which was um good. And then uh got to the there was a door on the left that we had to get through, and uh so I pied that door uh right to left, and then uh I was facing one of the boys in front of me, uh I think it was Hamish, and Steve was behind me, and I pulled out a frag, showed everyone, and they were like, yeah, and then I threw it in and uh frag out, and then boom, and then uh I was kind of thinking about throwing another grenade, but Steve just punched straight past me and in, and so I just followed him straight away, and then so we we went in and left right, and um that room was clear, and I went so I went left, and then there was another door further down there, so I saw going down that wall, and Steve was coming up round to my right, and he would have heard us walking on broken glass. Um he knew we were coming, I mean I'd just throwing a grenade, so no secret, but uh so yeah, and as Steve was coming in line with that door, he uh just opened up through that doorway, and we just got this massive burst of AK fire at our feet, and um and so we're like ah yep, there you are. And so this would that door was the pro where CIU had got, and that was as far as I could get, and that was the that was the problem. So uh we we came, we pulled back, we were like, Well, we're not running through that door, we've got other options. So we pulled back um to that first door, just covering forward, and um I kind of went back too much, so I tripped over the dead body of one of the t of the other teleban dude, Lana Mars. I was like, Oh fuck's sake. And then as I as I was getting up, I just heard Steve and he's just like get that charge on the wall, and um the boys came up with the charge, and now that we knew how it all went through there, it was like, yeah, so we'll get this charge and we'll put it on here and we'll see if we can take him out, but then it'll give us another entry point to get to him. Um so we all pulled back away from this charge. And um I thought I had a pretty good spot. Um I was a few metres away, like 10 metres away, uh, through a door, had a wall between me and the charge. So I was like, yep, good. Uh it was a pretty big charge. I think it was an external breaching charge for the compound walls. Um and uh got clacked off. Um, yeah, the old stand-by-standby go, boom, and the overpressure came through and uh pretty much hit me like a bus and um blew me off my feet, uh, blew the MVGs off my helmet, but the worst one was that I was holding my M4 on a sling and with one hand, and it drove the M4 into my nuts, but not like it was hard, like a bus, like so bad, and uh I was just dropped and uh I was on the floor completely fucked, and um I was hearding over the radio because there was a couple of boys in the room, but they were on the other wall, and uh they rang up and they go, I just heard uh Tom's down over the airpiece, and I'm just lying there and um Bruce couldn't come up because we were too close to the enemy, and so uh the next closest dude, advanced medic, was uh Steve, and uh he's just standing over me, coming over, and he's like, Can you breathe? And I'm like, Yep, and then straight away he starts patting me down, trying to find some major bleeds or anything. And uh I said, I'm good, man. I've just been smashing in the nuts, and uh and he goes, Are you sure? And I said, Yeah, bro, just go kill that cunt, and he just stands up and he goes, Okay, and he just turns and goes and um yeah, grabs the rest of the boys, and then all the badge dudes just um hit this dude with everything, and um I can't even get up, and uh so yeah, eventually uh I think the troop commander came over uh and he's like uh you're right, and I'm like I've just been smashing the nuts, and he goes, Yeah, you're alright, man. Just come over, see Bruce, and sit this one out. So I crawled around, found my MVGs, um, and then I hobbled over, and the medic came and checked me out, and he's like, You're right, and I'm like, Yeah, told him again, got smashed in the nuts, and then he's like looking at me with a little bit of light, and um he's like, You've been strapped in the head, your face is covered in blood, you've been strapped in both shoulders, you need stitches, you'll be going to hospital. And I was like, Yeah, okay, sweet. So in the meantime, the boys had that was my my side of it, but the boys had hooked in and um yep, just hit him hard from uh probably three different directions. They'd got they had their breaching hole now, they had that doorway, and then they'd gone around and found a window into the bathroom above them, and uh they were dropping grenades down onto him. Um you know, five grenades on top of him, and uh he was still yelling LR bar and shooting back, so he was he wasn't um he wasn't coming quietly. So uh yeah, I think 14 grenades all up, 12 14 grenades got uh dropped on him till by then, and uh yeah, Steve was around the other side on top of a chair, like putting auto through the window and stuff into him and all that, so yeah, they were going to town, and um so I kind of got up after a few minutes because I was feeling like a complete loser not being involved, and I was like, I'll I'll see if I can get in there, you know. Just a um and uh I was just starting to try and hobble over and see if I could help, and it was done. The boys had finished it, yeah. Uh they were handing back to CAU, so yeah. So yeah, and uh so it uh a couple of us, another bloke got a little bit of shrap. Um couple of us just went down to the hospital and got stretched up, but it was all very minor, nothing dramatic. And then yeah, it was another night. Oh, you know, got back for the hot wash and it was it was all high fives again, maximum morale. Another nine, another nine, another dollar. Loved it. Yeah, it wasn't uh wasn't my finest moment, but they give you shit.

SPEAKER_04 2:43:37

Uh oh, I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 2:43:43

I was walking pretty funny for a few days. Um yeah, I actually thought I'd ruptured one. Um and I got but I got scanned at the hospital and it was alright, but yeah, it wasn't wasn't a good time.

SPEAKER_02 2:43:57

But you know, uh throughout all this the job goes on.

SPEAKER_03 2:44:01

Yeah, yep, yeah, it was good. Yeah, everyone was still it was this was still like the coolest tour of our lives, and um it was going it was all going well.

SPEAKER_02 2:44:09

Yeah, yeah. And you know, just quickly we'll move on to another quick one. The British uh cancel attack as well, which you were heavily involved in, but this time this is where you lose lose a guy. So that's uh yeah, this is where it becomes reality.

SPEAKER_03 2:44:25

Yep. Um can we have a break?

SPEAKER_02 2:44:26

Yeah, mate, yeah, yeah, yeah. All good, yeah, yeah, good to go. All right, uh, another quick break.

SPEAKER_04 2:44:34

Yeah, so uh too much coffee.

SPEAKER_02 2:44:37

Yeah, too much coffee. Like I said, mate, moving on to that British council attack now. This again, this is where Doug uh Grant's killed. Uh again, makes this you know reality because over you know your your previous deployments and over the years, this is your first one that's you you're involved with. So, mate, let's let's talk about this.

SPEAKER_03 2:44:58

Yep. Um, so this was uh I think 19th of August. Uh another near miss for you as well. Yeah, suicide born. Uh yeah, yeah. Um so we had uh that first tour was now done, and um Steve and um Jamie and all them were going home and they'd they'd stood down and uh it was right on the changeover side. I don't know if they were maybe still in country or they were at UAE, but they weren't very far away. Um I stayed on, Jace stayed on, Tony stayed on, um, and a few others to have do a bit of overlap. But this uh the new crew came in and it was pretty much almost their I think first day of since they took over or close to that uh the this kicked off. Uh so this one was a little different. It was in the morning. Uh I think they started at about nine or ten in the morning. And uh it started off as a British council building, and they I think the gist of it is that they teach people English and stuff like that. Um but yeah. Uh there was a vehicle born IED driven into the gates of the compound, blew the gates, and um, and then a group of uh suicide bombers ran in and um shot their way in, killed some guards, and um took over the building of the British Council. Uh I was in Camp Warehouse uh that morning, and um Dougie and Rue and Frank and uh Colin, the two IC, they were down in CAU, so they sort of headed over, but there was a bit of confusion, I think, for quite a while whether or not uh CAU was going to be used or not. I think there's maybe um some other units that might have wanted to get involved. Uh I don't really know what happened, but it took ages anyway, so it had been going for a little bit. Uh I remember sitting in the bar having something to eat and I was watching it on BBC, and uh they said, yep, vehicle born IED um followed up by small arms fire. And uh as soon as I heard that followed up by a small arms fire, I was just like, Yep, we're definitely gonna be going. Like I just felt 100% we'll we'll be right in, we'll be right into this. Um but uh so they they got in there and um Dougie and Rue were sort of the two guys that would go in. The other two were more uh command, control, or support, and um whatever happened I'm not too sure was I wasn't there, but uh eventually they did go in and uh the CAU was there in support and they um they got as far as uh they got in there, they got inside the building. Uh the sorry, inside the building there was two um female English teachers, British citizens, and they'd managed to make it to the cell uh to the safe room. There's another couple of security guards in there somewhere, and um they were holed up, but um yeah, Dougie and Rue uh managed to get inside the building, get to the safe room. I don't know if they engaged anyone, I think they might have um somewhere along all this, and they got the two um two girls out of the safe room, out of the building, and then to the back of the compound, but it was uh like a little garden shed or something, I can't remember what it was exactly, but it was in the corner of the compound, so they got them in there, so they were out of the building, but they couldn't safely get them out of the compound with uh with the gear that they had. So um I knew what it because of the hotel, like I knew what it was like to be in there by yourself or just with one, you know, pretty small team, um, just wishing that the the boys were there. So uh yeah, me and Jace were um we were pushing to try and go in sooner, and uh for whatever reason um there was uh a bit of a delay, uh probably above our pay grade, so won't worry about that. But um, so yeah, we were but we were pushing because we wanted to go and support support the boys. And uh eventually we went in and uh I went in with uh Kane and one of the other boys, um one of the other mentors in our vehicle, and we got there and there was um all these British vehicles, heaps of British troops, because obviously it was a British uh the British council. And uh we got out and went round the back of the building, got guided by the two IC round to this half uh built building around the back where you could get a bit of a look over into the compound. So there's a while there we were we were trying to still work out, you know, w what building was what and where we had to focus and things like that. And um so we got we were all in there. There was blood on the floor in that building, uh a couple of levels up um from where a cop had been shot by one of the dudes inside the building, the terrorists. They were quite um well I wouldn't call them a sniper, but there was someone in there at least that could take well-aimed shots, and um he was he was in depth, so it was quite it was quite dangerous, and uh yeah, you sort of had to watch where you where you put your head out. And um, yeah, I think uh there might have been a few bit of shooting uh as you know from them to us um as we were coming in, if you got a few views of us, and then it sort of went quiet for a wee while and uh I think we got comms with um Dougie and Rue, and then Dougie came over or did a bit of a run across I think open ground to try and link up with us, and um and then we heard some fire. I can't remember if it was one or a few rounds, and um and we didn't know it at the time, but I think those were the rounds that um got got dug. So uh and then we were trying to get everyone was trying to get hold of um Dougie from there. So uh yeah, I probably had like I probably tried to ring him ten times myself. Everyone was trying to get hold of him, and uh there was no answer. Um and yeah, eventually I don't know who's who found him or who worked out where he was, but they they worked out that he was down there, and um so we had to go and get him, and uh so that changed the whole mission uh priority. Uh so the boys went down, um strike troop, and uh Kane went down with them, and Tony and I stayed up on fire support up on that building, and um yeah, so the whole thing with the boys that went in to get uh dug, um I wasn't there, and so I won't try and pretend that I knew what everyone did. There was some uh few key points, I suppose. They had to smash through a wall to get to him. Um they had to wait for a ballistic shield because there was no cover. Um and they pretty much had to go in and get him out under fire. And um yeah, they uh they went hard to uh to get him back. And uh Jace will tell you, Jace was there, so he'll fill the gaps in of of what it was. I couldn't even see them, so I'm not gonna pretend that I know what happened exactly, but yep, they got him out. But while they were doing that, they needed sub uh support, and so for me it was uh I was up with Tony and uh we were engaging from this uh building and uh we were shooting away with what we had, which was just our M4s, and um the one point the supporters were bringing up all the we had our armoured land cruisers had our boots were basically like little armories, and uh they were just for all the structure ones were anyway, and um they had tons of weapons in there, so they were getting raided, and there was uh C9s coming up, GPMGs, uh M72s, and um yeah, like heaps of stuff, and uh so the firing was picking up, I think, because you know, uh any exposure they were shooting, so we were starting to start a bit of back and forth was starting to ramp up again now, and um though they were trying to get in to get Doug. So we were shooting back, um, and at one point I was uh I was sort of half round a wall um shooting with my M4, and um this one round, like the wall was about there, and this one round just came in and hit the bricks like right in front of my face and just sprayed like bricks into my eyes, and um so he'd lined me up for a headshot that whoever this dude was in the council and he'd missed like by millimetres, and um that was a that was a bit close, but um so I uh I was like jumped back, I was like fucking hell, and then I looked down and there was a C9. The weapons had been sort of laid out for us by the supporters, and I grabbed a C9 and just went back to the same spot and um and then just started sending like 25, 35 round bursts back into the building trying to um get some decent firepower back at them. And uh Tony was doing the same thing. I think he got himself a GPMG going, and um, so we s we were um doing what we could from where we were, and uh the call came up at one point actually during uh Dougie's recovery for some M72s, and uh so Tony jumped on the M72s and uh fired two rockets into the building as well, so that was uh fucking cool. So yeah, she was uh kicking off and um it was it was pretty brutal. Um and um so the boys got dug out and then it uh quietened down a wee bit, and then the supporties um there was enough supporties around and they can all use guns, and so uh the troop commander goes, um Tom, I'll get you to go down and join the assault. So I was like, Yep, sweet. So uh I went down the bottom and uh strike troop were all down there. And um I got down there and they were all the CIU were milling around in this back wall, and this was this wall was on the opposite side of it, was where that little building was where Rue was holding these two uh teachers and uh he was protecting them. So we were on the other side of that wall, and um got down there and the boys were um organizing the breaching charge. They'd found some uh plastic uh some explosives in the boot that were made up for another job, and it was like a line main, so they were they were rigging that up as a breaching charge for this wall. So while they were sorting that out, um I saw the CAU and no one had really gripped them up. I think all the mentors were busy. Well, two of them were Doug and Rue and they were busy. Uh well Doug was gone, but Rue was busy, and um I think the other bloke was going hard with the stroke boys, so um I sort of thought, oh I'll I'll grip these guys up and got the turp, and I was like, I had to explain to them like we're gonna blow a hole through this wall, and you guys are gonna be the assault group. And uh and they were like, oh yeah, and then I was like, first of all, before that, go around and clear all these little buildings around us, behind us, just in case there's something waiting for us. And so they they took off and went and did that. And um so yeah. That got done, CAU came back, and then the charge went up, it was up on the wall and we were ready, and uh basically all they did was uh all the plan was was just uh throw a ton of smoke over the wall and then uh blow the charge and then uh or wait for the smoke to fill up the entire backyard so the guys in the building couldn't see us, get these uh girls out. And um and then uh the fire support was just gonna hammer and then once the once that uh charge was blown, get the girls out, and then we were all in and go to the building and and assault it. So Yep. Did that smoked the place out, blew the charge. Um fire support hammering. There was some good fire firepower coming down. And um yeah, I just remember because I pushed out because I was gonna go in a bit later because I wanted to make sure the CAU followed Strike Troop in. I didn't want Strike Troop to go and then CAU to piss off or you know not follow us in. So I was I was kind of got to make sure they they followed in and then I was gonna jump in behind them. And uh so I pulled out so I had a view of this uh hole where they're just blown. And um yeah, I just remember Rue coming out and the boys had gone in and to help him, but I remember seeing him like the look on his face, like he's just stoic, but he um yeah, he he just helped get these girls out and then he just turned and then just boom assault like yeah, it was just um pretty impressive. He'd had a big day already and he was uh straight into it, so um so yeah, boys went through and then uh CIU followed and then uh yeah I kind of went in I think after them just uh and then I caught up, went through the hole and it was all smoked out and um yeah, it was like a different world once you got through that hole and ran to the building, and they were all outside the building, and um yeah the assault sergeants like um yeah, all right, because it was still a CAU operation and they were actually trying to they didn't want us to take over, like they were trying to hold on to it and do what they could and just use us as they needed. So that was good. So it's like, yep, uh CAU mentors get in there, and so we went we the CAU were taking the lead, and we were just you know, a few guys back helping, and um went on for a bit, like uh yeah, there's heaps I can't remember, but we sort of basically we just got in there and CAU went forward. There was a closed lock door at one point. Uh I wrote out for a breacher to come forward, he came forward, put a little IDC on the door, and then we all got in position, blew that door, but that charge um the CAU shot themselves because they weren't ready for it or whatever, or they were just hyped up, and so they all ran outside and you kind of had to go with them because it was like a little tight corridor, so we all got pushed outside, and then we waited, and then oh, we were out there, and then it was like, right, you we explained what we'd just done, and the CAU were like, Oh, yeah, yeah. And they were like, right, get back in there, send them back in, and um, and they went forward, and then uh further up, uh so it was probably about eight CAU, and then there was Rue, and uh I was uh um a bit behind him, maybe a couple more people behind him, and um we got up into the British Council, uh sorry, so the there was an open door on the right, and um CAU got up there, chucked a frag in, and then um I was looking at something else, kind of looking down, and then I just remember hearing like yelling, I think he was uh Al Arkbarring or something, and I looked up and this dude just walked out into the hallway and then he just detonated like amongst all their CIU and uh yeah, there was just um so yeah, it was just Al Arkbar boom, and uh there was just uh like AKs flying everywhere and CIU eats of them got knocked over, and it was all the screaming and stuff of the uh from the CIU because some of them were hurt. Um I don't think there was any major injuries somehow. I don't know how, but I don't there was probably just some eyebrows missing and some burnt faces and uh yeah, maybe something bit more, but I don't think there was anything critical. And so they sort of all got themselves up and it was the same thing again, all ran back outside and um it was like a like a mosh pit, you kind of had to go with it or you'd you'd get crushed. Um and then we kind of went ended up back outside again, and um and then I said the troop commander was right there, and I said to him uh they might need a few minutes after that one just to recover. And he was like, Yep, sweet. So we were waiting for it to recover uh for the for them to get over get sorted again, and um, and then we noticed this uh thick black smoke um going through the building and it was getting worse, and uh it was like they were you know house fire, like toxic black smoke, and um and then people uh like we were thinking the true commander was like, Oh, do you reckon we can put that out? Like if we throw grenades at the fire, we might be able to put it out. And I was like, um, I think we should like this is doing our job for us, it's gonna clear the building. And I was like, maybe we should let it burn. And uh he thought about that, and then uh yeah, he made the call and he's like, Um, yeah, we're gonna pull out and uh let it burn. And uh, yeah, I mean if you were in if you were in the building and you you wouldn't be able to survive with that smoke, so that was good. And uh so we started pulling away and the fire support was still coming in. And uh I think um because there was so much noise coming from the Tony and that with the machine guns, no one could hear that we were actually being shot at. Uh the CIU went first, and then the strike guys, and um we were we were evacuating out of the compound just to sit back, and um, but the we were being engaged, like everyone that ran across to get out, I think, was pretty much being engaged, but no one could hear it. So everyone was running, but not you know, not aware of that. And then I think one of the guys something fell off or a pouch or something, came off his armor, and he only realised when he went to pick it up, and it was like rounds coming in, and um but anyway, yeah, so we just um one at a time just moved back and uh went to get out, and um I th I was last uh troop commander and I were the two last people and um I knew who'd want to go out last because you know this officers like to be last out, which is a good thing. So I I did a run and he was right behind me. And um, yeah, as I as I got out of the hole in the wall, uh he's like, Did you see that bullet? He's like laughing, and I was like, Nah. And he goes, Yeah, like missed your head, hit the wall by like that much, and I was like, Oh for fuck's sake. And um, yeah. So uh we got out and then we just pulled back and we just covered the building um and watched it burn, basically. Um it didn't fully go up, but it it got to the point where there was just black smoke just pumping out all the windows, just fully gassing the place out. And uh the security guards got themselves out. I think they maybe got out on the roof and got out. Um so everyone was out, and then the bad guys didn't come out. And yeah, what happened after that? Um maybe they yeah, died or um well they did die, they all died, but um yeah, I don't know if they killed themselves or just can't succumb to the smoke or whatever, but um we didn't go back and yeah, it was it was done.

SPEAKER_02 3:05:59

So for you guys as you spoke about before with the other jobs, you go back to base, war stories, high fives, but this time there's been a KIA, so obviously the the the mood surely is yeah, totally different.

SPEAKER_03 3:06:13

No, totally different shit, yeah. Yeah, uh Dougie was um Dougie was an awesome dude, man. And um I was only just getting to know him. He he was in the unit, he was the first dude that me and Steve saw when we pulled up for selection, and he was standing there in his Brit DPMs, and he had his two big huskies with him, and he had his mullet blowing in the wind, and his non-regulation moustache uh and a roly, and uh yeah, we pulled out and he's like, Oh, yep, you know, um dinner's at five, go grab a bed, and uh the course starts tomorrow, and then he just goes, you know, if you want you can go for a pack marsh, and he just chuckled to himself and walked off. And I mean Steve were like he was the coolest dude we'd ever met. Like that was that was what we wanted to be. That's one of the OGs, yeah. And um, and then he went away for a while and he had just come back to the unit for this trip, and um, he came in as a mentor. So I'd spent maybe a week with him um and I was getting to know him and a bit better, and yeah, he was awesome. He's really good, dude. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:07:24

Were most of those um Opaudia rotations like this? Because this one's like obviously this is the one you're on, but were they this? I don't I think this was the busiest one.

SPEAKER_03 3:07:38

This was there were they did respond to some other ones earlier and they did have some But these were the big big jobs. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think there's one um I think there's one other one that wasn't too bad um before me, but I can't remember the name of it. Maybe it's Serena or something. But um I think yeah, this was the busiest tour, I think.

SPEAKER_02 3:07:58

Yeah, yeah. And then you know, this is so this is this has all happened with uh Doug, and then you know, further on down on this deployment again, Leon Smith is killed as well.

SPEAKER_03 3:08:12

Yeah, so probably what's today, 26th, I think it was the 28th of September. Yep. Um, which wasn't too long after. And there was a high risk arrest. That's not too long after uh Doug's killed. Yep so 19th of August and 28th of September. Okay, yep, yep, yeah, yep. And um I wasn't on that job, I was on it, and then uh one of the boys that had just come over, he was keen as to get out there, and I was coming to the end of my tour and I wasn't too fast. Like these uh these HRAs weren't incredibly exciting, and I'd done enough of them that I was sort of more for him. I was like, oh if you want to go, you know, you can take my spot, I will go see Frank and see if he's happy. And uh Frank says, Yeah, no, we'll good swap out. Um so I I missed out on that job, and um, but Chase was there and he'll tell you all about it. Yep. And um and Leon's killed. Yeah, so yeah, it was just I wasn't super close to Leon, but he was a really nice bloke, and uh uh every time I ever talked to him, it was we were always laughing, you know, like he was he was just one of those, he was a character. Some of the guys there that were on that job were some of his best mates, and um yeah, it was a uh rough end to the tour. Started off all yeah, all high fives, and then it got yeah, but not so good at the end. But uh that's the way it goes sometimes, I suppose.

SPEAKER_02 3:09:51

So you're exactly right, like you said, that's that's the way it goes. That's the that's the environment, that's the job you're in. Uh, you know, it's to be expected, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:10:02

Regardless, it doesn't matter how competent or I think that I think those were the first combat deaths for our units in Vietnam. It is.

SPEAKER_02 3:10:10

So um it hurt everyone hard. And on that one rotation.

SPEAKER_03 3:10:14

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 3:10:16

So if for yourself, mate, like you said, this is the end of the tour for you anyway. Uh Jace, if you're listening, mate, you're coming on the podcast. We've got to figure this out. Uh obviously he carries on with the rest of that uh his his deployment, so he's still got another couple of months to go.

SPEAKER_03 3:10:31

No, no, so me and him, we both don't. You're on the same one, yeah. Oh, gotcha, gotcha. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 3:10:36

So he he came home as well. Okay. Well he's still got to come on and tell his story. But um, like I said, you guys come home. There's been two KIA uh, like you said, since Vietnam for NZSAS. It's it's how's this transition back to the you know the real world, which ultimately leads to your discharge as well?

SPEAKER_03 3:11:01

Um I just uh I came back and I couldn't go back to training. I think I was over it. And um, and I was also Ashley to be honest, um, and it was in my interview on the way out, SSM interviewed me because they obviously don't want you to go. And um the interview pretty much went, um, is there any reason you're leaving that we can help? Like, is this you know, you want to do a certain thing or a certain role or anything? And um and I just said, I'm sick of being broke. And he just closed his book and goes, Oh well, can't help you, and shook my hand, and um, you know, we had a laugh, but that's just the way it is, like yeah. Just I was I I was I was probably done anyway, but um that didn't help. Did that tour take it out of you as well? Um no, it was probably if we had had ongoing work, I would have been good. But I knew I knew Afghan was uh winding down and I just thought, yeah, I'm done. Like I'll I'd I'd like to finish on a high. Um you know, and then you finish with good memories instead of waiting for it to go toxic or go bitter or have problems or whatever. Yeah, that was you know, that toil was one of the happiest times of my life in a lot of ways, and uh yeah, when I left I was on really good terms with the unit. I had no regrets, I'd probably achieved everything I wanted to, and um it was uh yeah, just time to go.

SPEAKER_02 3:12:39

Yeah, yeah, of course. And you know, just just quickly on that, I you know, we don't we we know they don't want to talk about family and that's too much, but you obviously get married at this stage, and I'm sure your wife's like, bro, it's probably yeah it's probably probably time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:12:54

Uh yeah, oh yeah, we just wanted to do something different. Yeah, of course, of course.

SPEAKER_02 3:12:59

And so and you've been in the military, what say 11, 12 years at that stage? Yeah, that was about 12-ish, 13, so and been through some of the biggest scenarios that the NZSAS has been part of. Uh in theory, yeah. A few notables. A couple of notables and then, like you said, with the two deaths as well, you know. That's uh you know that's again. This is the reason why we do these podcasts is to keep the memories of those boys alive and uh show the sacrifice to the people that's that's what they sacrificed.

SPEAKER_03 3:13:36

Yeah, I just hope I've done it justice for the boys. Like uh it's hard, you know, you do these and it feels like you're just talking about yourself. But I did um talking about the stories from your perspective. Yeah, like I can't I can't see what the other boys are doing. Exactly. I know I was compared to like say Steve, Jace, Hamish, you know, I was doing fuck all really compared to them, but yeah, um they were the heavy hitters, uh Willie. Um so yeah, if anyone's uh not happy with what I've said, uh sorry, but um that's just all I can remember.

SPEAKER_02 3:14:11

That's that's from your eyes, and again, this is you know, it's it's it sucks that Steve's not here because imagine getting his story from his eyes. You know what I mean? Like I could only imagine how yeah, how good it'd be. But you know, this but again, this this is the point, and I'm so glad that you've you've come on and given your perspective because again, it opens the eyes to the rest of the world and the people here in Australia. This is the reason, or even New Zealand, this is the reason why blokes went over there. It was to thought the enemy over there to stop it from coming here or New Zealand or wherever.

SPEAKER_03 3:14:46

Yeah, well, that was the selling point, wasn't it? Yeah, and uh yeah, apparently not. We'll just bring them over here, no.

SPEAKER_02 3:14:52

We bring them over here, then they yeah, then you know Bondi happens and yeah, all this crazy stuff. So, like we said, that you know, you know, we spoke about this offline. We don't want to talk too much about your uh off-life uh moving here to Perth, but you obviously get out of the defence force, made your mind up, make the move, yeah. As typical uh Cuzzies come over to Australia to become scaffolders, yeah. Work in the oil and gas industry.

SPEAKER_03 3:15:18

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, mainly, mainly got it, yeah, you got amongst the old scaffolding in there. It's just it's it's a ticket. It's it's here, we just do it because it's easy, fast money. There's more money up here. You can get a lot of work, um tons of work here, and then yeah, it's either that or or working that's quite common. I mean, most guys come over from New Zealand um to make a better life for themselves, and you don't, you know, come over here, you don't even got time to do a four-year apprenticeship on that, so that's why scaffolding. Yeah, and the money's better. Yeah, yeah. Well, the trades are better, but scaffolding's pretty good. And yeah, so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:15:55

And we want to we want to go to New Zealand right now. Far we're out.

SPEAKER_03 3:15:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:16:00

This place sucks. Australia sucks.

SPEAKER_03 3:16:02

Oh well, yeah. Um I like it, I love Australia, yeah. It's um given given me a lot, and um, yeah, I'm actually uh I know I won't talk about that, but um, yeah, so yeah, ended up doing that, and then uh, but now I'm trying to get into sort of moving into more like rope access and rigging and um yeah, sort of trying to stay offshore because it's a bit better out there. So that's where I'm at. Big dollars too. Big dollars. Yeah, can be pretty good.

SPEAKER_02 3:16:34

Yeah. Mate, just quickly, uh, you know, the first couple of years out of defense, how did you go? Because you're operating at such a tier where you said two like again, the the the mindset to say that 2011 is all time for you, where you've had some of the closest experiences to death, you experienced death, you participated in taking life. How did you go getting out, leaving that whole life behind, and then living a civilian life where you know you can have your first world problems and whinge about a cold coffee?

SPEAKER_03 3:17:12

Yeah, yeah, no, it was uh it was different. Um and it was pretty much because we moved straight over here too, it was uh everything was different. New job, new house, new city, new everything, and um and then dealing with civilians as well, um, which is completely different compared to you know the boys. Um it was completely yeah, it was scaffolders who uh um they're more they're probably more like battalion dudes, scaffolders. Yeah, uh they go hard, but they're uh yeah, they can be uh pretty rough. Animals, yeah. Yeah, but it's it's good though, because you don't have to watch your P's and Q's when you're working. Did they ever hit you up?

SPEAKER_02 3:18:00

Tom, hey guys, tell us a story.

SPEAKER_04 3:18:02

Tell us a story, bro.

SPEAKER_03 3:18:04

I had a few yarns. When you're working with dudes for 12 hours a day for four weeks straight, you end up having a few yarns.

SPEAKER_02 3:18:10

So and they'll be just like blowing off their feet.

SPEAKER_03 3:18:13

Uh yeah, I don't know, but yeah, I guarantee it. Yeah. But yeah, it is what it is.

SPEAKER_04 3:18:21

And um yeah. Uh Fighter Jet, you that? What's on today? Uh the final. Where's that at? In Melbourne. Uh yeah, I think so. Yeah. Yeah, but Freo, they reckon Freo's gonna be a bit mad. No, well, it hasn't started yet. Yeah, yeah. Know the lines.

SPEAKER_02 3:18:42

By the time this body's out, someone's won. It'll be over, yeah. But yeah, I was uh yeah, anyway. Um, I guess that brings us to the current date, mate. Here we are in Perth. Yep. End of the podcast, mate. Again, really appreciate you. I've got a couple of final questions before we go, but um mate, what a career. What a career. Again, I found you on Instagram, you popped up, and now you're an influencer. You got all that content up, and yeah, I reached out and said, mate, I've got to gotta you gotta come on. Yeah. Um and Hamish obviously spoke you up. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:19:16

That's where you gotta reach out to Well, that was the only that was that one he did with Scojo. Uh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was like the one that changed my perspective of I was so against all this stuff, and then and then I ended up having a chat to Scojo and he his his view on it. He was the same, and then he came on as well. Yeah, it's like, you know, tell your story or some other dickhead will tell it and he wasn't even there, and that's it, and then it it won't be right, so that's it. Just got to say your piece and let someone else say theirs, and that's it.

SPEAKER_02 3:19:50

That's it. And you know, there's gonna be boys that are listening, and there might be some young fellas out there right now and in second first, and they're like, oh fuck yeah, I want to be like Tom. Sounds mad.

SPEAKER_04 3:19:59

Doubt it. You yeah, mate.

SPEAKER_02 3:20:03

There's the stories out there, but uh couple of final questions, mate. First one, what advice can you give to people? Keep on keeping on completing any goals they set their mind to and just to crush it in life. Um again, you've been through scenarios where You had to make a decision on the spot and go for it. Like that first one with running up that hill. Fuck it, I've got to do it. Otherwise I'm dead.

SPEAKER_03 3:20:29

Yeah. Um Yeah you just got to be decisive. And um either it's this either if it's in your face this is just coming to be now, I think, but if it's an immediate decision that has to be made, you've got to make a decision and just do it. And also uh probably applies to long term as well. Make a decision and do it. Um so if you if you want to get into the unit, make a decision and do it. Um but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:20:57

Did you have anyone in your career you could lean on to as well? Uh all the boys? Yeah. You always ask for their opinions on things. Hey boys, what do you think I should do?

SPEAKER_03 3:21:07

Or oh I knew what I was doing as as in direction. Yeah. Like I knew. But for other things, yeah, I mean they'll fuck they'll tell you if you if you're not up to bar anyway, or if you're doing something stupid.

SPEAKER_02 3:21:19

So you know. Yep. But uh mate the second question, what scares you most in life?

SPEAKER_04 3:21:26

Um I can't think of anything. Sorry. You've been a been uh I don't know, what else? It would probably this podcast upon the podcast. It probably was, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:21:44

For the listener like here was you just see if I could it was probably easier to go storm the intercontinental hotel. Yeah, yeah, sit behind a microphone and share your life story. That's that would have been the most uncomfortable I've been for years and years. Yeah. Alright, mate, move on. Tell us something about you people don't know. Guilty obsession or uh what are you into?

SPEAKER_03 3:22:08

Like a bit of red dead redemption too.

SPEAKER_02 3:22:10

Oh do you? Yeah, bit of a gamer.

SPEAKER_04 3:22:13

Jump on the old horse and it's a good game, isn't it? Go shoot some bull bags, yeah. Grand Theft Auto's out soon. Yeah, I know. I'm looking forward to that.

SPEAKER_02 3:22:22

Yeah, I didn't realise you're a gamer.

SPEAKER_04 3:22:24

I know it's but Dorky.

SPEAKER_02 3:22:26

Look, mate, I am too. I just bought a gaming PC. Oh, yeah. Yeah, just bought one and been smashing a bit of Call of Duty. Yeah, I just got the PS5.

SPEAKER_03 3:22:33

Yeah, my boy keeps telling me to get onto a bit of Call of Duty as well.

SPEAKER_02 3:22:36

Yeah, mate.

SPEAKER_03 3:22:36

I think they've re-released some games or something and they're really really popular.

SPEAKER_02 3:22:39

The new one's coming out soon as well. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, might look into that. Grand Theft Auto, mate.

SPEAKER_03 3:22:44

I like open world, eh, because you can just do what you want.

SPEAKER_02 3:22:46

Well, that's it. Like Grand Theft Auto, if you want to go. Fourth question, movies, TV show. What are you what are you watching?

SPEAKER_03 3:22:53

Um I'm not really watching too much right now. I want to watch that um what's that British Essays one that they did on um World War II?

SPEAKER_04 3:23:03

I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 3:23:04

Uh it's like made by the Lockstock dude. Isn't it? Yeah, I've I haven't seen it. I can't remember the name of it. I haven't watched the second series. But yeah, I just like stuff like Peaky Blinders and Hagar's Peaky, yeah. Yeah. And uh probably favourite movie of all time would be The Unforgiven. Yeah. Good, good and classic.

SPEAKER_02 3:23:23

What about a military movie? What are you? They should bring in a they they should. Mel Gibson, if you're listening, yeah. Interconnetal hotel 2011, that'd be a good movie. Who actually in saying that if there was a movie about that, who would you what actor would you have play?

SPEAKER_04 3:23:43

First Tom Cruise Fucking no. Um yeah, no. Nicole Kidman. Mate's uh blind side of me with that one.

SPEAKER_02 3:24:01

Mate, uh music. What would uh what do you listen to? What's your what's your go to?

SPEAKER_03 3:24:05

Uh partial on a little bit of Metallica. Um and uh country, like country, yeah, yeah, yeah. Middle. Um yeah, anything as long as it's not shit, really.

SPEAKER_02 3:24:19

But yeah, that's probably my two main ones. Uh fair, mate. Yeah, yeah, mate. Well, uh again, appreciate you coming on the potty, sharing the story, and uh yeah, we'll stay in contact and get this out. This is this is gonna be out to the public, mate, and you're out there. Yeah, social media influencer.

SPEAKER_03 3:24:38

Yeah, all good. Uh well thanks anyway, man. Um hopefully it's uh uh I haven't uh say anything too stupid, but no, it's been good, mate.

SPEAKER_02 3:24:49

Again, again, it's just sharing the perspective of the G Watt era with through your eyes, yeah. What you've seen, keeping the boys' memories alive, yeah. And you know, not even that, showing what the NZ SAS did, you know, even though it was somewhat limited, yeah, uh with within, you know, the they again they should have been deploying like nonstop, like the like the Australians were.

SPEAKER_04 3:25:14

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 3:25:15

But would like that you you got into the thick of it, mate, and you got to do your job.

SPEAKER_04 3:25:19

So yeah, uh, as long as you get have a cracker, mean thing. Yeah, that's it, mate.

SPEAKER_02 3:25:23

Again, all right.

SPEAKER_04 3:25:24

Well call it, catch you later. Cher. Cher Check us