THE DEBRIEF #27 Human Performance / DA (Direct Action) Nile Afghanistan - hosted by Zero Limits Podcast Matty Morris with former guest Craig Hamburger EP. 154

SPEAKER_02 1:48

Zero limits listeners. Back for a debrief. It's been uh quite some time since I've seen this guy. I actually did see him a week ago. Uh but it's been quite some time since I did an episode with him. Episode 154, Craig Hamburger, 2nd Commando Regiment. It was on the 25th of December 2023 when we dropped that episode. It reached the ears of the Australian public, and the messages I got, it was just overwhelming. The messages he got, he told me about them, and there was just tons as well. It's always the case. Uh his story was quite extensive. And it leads on to other podcasts with Damien Tomlinson, Iceman, and a few other things. Absolutely just ripping stories. And obviously, there was that one picture, you know, you in the Australian Defender magazine you'd see all the time this dude like with a shamag around his face in Iraq. I mean, like, fuck, who is that bloke? Who is that bloke? And everyone thought it was SASR. Turns out it was Bergs. Absolutely correct. Mate, welcome back. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_00 2:53

Cheers, Maddie. Cheers. Last week I actually sniped you. He was looking down at his phone and I'm like, I've got this. I've got this fucker. I snuck up on him, he was scared the shit out of him. Mate, never, never look away.

SPEAKER_02 3:06

Mate, I'm I'm a civvy now. Just do what civys do best. They just put their head in their phone and just walk. In Green Hills too. That's my hometown. Yeah. You shop there all the time, do you? Yeah, I'm a local, mate. Yeah. I didn't realise you shopped there there as well.

SPEAKER_00 3:18

I'd I I steer clear of Matty Morris.

SPEAKER_02 3:20

Mate, we'll hit the sushi in uh time zone.

SPEAKER_00 3:23

Yeah, I know you.

SPEAKER_02 3:23

We're going tonight, yeah. We're going tonight.

SPEAKER_00 3:25

Oh you said Thursday nights.

SPEAKER_02 3:27

Yeah, well, Thursday nights is uh turned into tennis nights now for the kids. Oh right. Yeah, private lessons. Yeah. Trying to get them into tennis. Make millions. That's all we well played tennis. I'll be the tennis dad like Yelena Dokich. Remember her dad? Oh, don't. Don't.

SPEAKER_00 3:42

That's where the money's at.

SPEAKER_02 3:43

That's it, mate.

SPEAKER_00 3:44

That or golf. Yeah. And there's plenty of good golf courses out this way.

SPEAKER_02 3:48

There is, mate. There is. We play a fair bit with uh with the Saint.

SPEAKER_00 3:52

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:53

Skojo. It's Gojo, mate. D's the one obviously that uh linked us together initially. So mate, how what's what's been happening? How you going?

SPEAKER_00 4:02

Uh I'm I am still transitioning. Um finding my way. It's an interest interesting path being conscious and um really trying to live in each day. But um no, I'm I'm doing really good. Uh no, like last time we spoke was what December oh 23. Um I got a three-year-old running around, uh, which I'm very grateful for because he's actually helping me transition. Um, the wife gets up me all the time because I want cuddles in the lounge, and she goes, he's got to sleep in his own bed. I said, Oh yeah, I get it. But he's only gonna be this age for a while. And then I got my other three, um, my eldest is 17. 14-year-old girl and daughter and a soon-to-be 11-year-old daughter next next week.

SPEAKER_02 4:51

You get it, don't you? That like your wife said, you know, he's gonna sleep in his own bed, blah, blah, blah. My wife said used to say that all the time, but you know, your 17-year-old, they're you know, that's it. They they don't care about you anymore. The only time I get a message from my 19 or 60-year-old now is Dad, can I have some money? Or can you pick me up? Dad, can you get me can you get me this? You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 5:13

Um, and I think it's more relevant for me now being out, because um, you know, as I try and explain my career to people, I was a honeymoon husband, you know, like only home on a weekend every now and then. Um, so 10 months of the year, if I wasn't away on course or instructing or uh re-qualifying, which I had to do every year, uh the longer we got with the the politics of it all, um, on all your skill sets. And if not, you're away on exercise or you're deployed. So um, you know, for 18 years, which is you know, with my my current wife now, which um I'm pretty proud of to be uh still married um post-service, I think that's where the big transition is, and and I do preach consciousness, but um it's its own journey. But uh, you know, I'm trying and I listen, and even though she probably thinks I I I don't, typical male, but um, you know, I I try and be super aware of myself in every situation. Um but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:23

Isn't that wild that communication is one of the biggest I guess ways of having a successful relationship? Us coming from the military, communication was the top priority out of anything and everything that we did. Yet as soon as we leave, we kind of just forget about it and don't realise the extent of how valuable communication is.

SPEAKER_00 6:49

Yeah, agreed. But it's also looking at the style of communication where within the military the words we were speaking were very mission-focused, very direct, very like matter of fact, where you talk, you come out of the military and the communication is a journey. It's it's not just this needs to happen, get it fucking done. It's like, let's talk about this, let's talk about and and We're not used to that. We're not built like that. So our conditioning is very matter-of-fact, and it's like, okay, so it's again being conscious is like, okay, I need to adjust. And if I want to have my family around, which I do, I need to then change. I spent twenty years conforming to an organization and a task that was very robotic, very like, get it done, this is the mission, execute, crack on, next mission, crack on. And um outside, it's the only loyalties you have are to the people within your bubble. And um, you know, as I preach to my kids now, like people at school are circumstantial. They're only within your space because they go to your school. How many of them are are gonna be your true friends and or influences when you leave? So it's like any job you have, they're circumstantial. So it's like you only get out of it what you put in, and you only really want to engage. Like I love people, so I'm like, I oh cool, I'll have everyone in my sphere, but it's funny how when it suits them, you know what I mean? So learning, learning.

SPEAKER_02 8:32

That's it, isn't it? It's funny they say that about school.

SPEAKER_00 8:35

About how many friends you have, you know, you you have the one or two that stick around and that that's it out of the one, two hundred people, you know, it's well I had 1,500 at my school at Belmont High, um, and then you know, within your year, I mean it's funny because a lot of the the girls within my year, um, and even some of the blokes because they married some of the girls in my year, uh, are all still super close. And I'm like, did I miss that? Do I miss that? No, I don't every day is is a new day of learning.

SPEAKER_02 9:10

Anyway, just what about the military boys? You chat to uh chat to a few still? Um obviously you get you know the I do a little bit different from high school.

SPEAKER_00 9:22

It's hard. Um these guys you bled with. I know died with, and that's yeah, yeah, and were willing to die for and stand next to and die together. What it's um a lot of my my friends, my close friends who I've been in battle with um are still serving and or uh are living it's you know, living their own lives and trying to survive in their own way. And unless we live in the same town or suburb or, you know, like back in the day, mil military personnel used to live within a a military living quarters in houses where your neighbor was in the military, you know what I mean? We don't have that. Um and with the way society is and how expensive things are, we are all just trying to survive and just pay bills and get through the next day, the next day, the next day, and then next thing you know, it's ten years is gone. So um I've had a lot reach out and I reached out to them, um, a lot of really close friends um that I hold very dearly, Geordie McCullum, um up in Queensland.

SPEAKER_01 10:25

Um come on the podcast, mate. Stop dodging.

SPEAKER_00 10:28

Uh and he has a story to tell. I know he does. Yeah, and we we chat a a bit. Yeah, just I love him dearly. Um such a a great Australian, but uh such a humble human.

SPEAKER_02 10:41

And I think For R and SSR.

SPEAKER_00 10:44

Correct. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 09. He did the 08 uh trip with us, 06, you know, he was part of the A team. Um, you know, and we'll go into that after on the um the pedi's fire 40 mil into someone. Pink miss, mate. It was like the it I think you spoke about on your book, yeah. And I'll talk about it again because it it these are moments where I'm like, that was skill. It's like you're going somewhere, bro. But uh no, it's funny. We talk about killing people like it's uh um but it was the application of of skill and intent, which is our task and our job um to eliminate threats. And uh, you know, I did a um a motivational talk to a football club last week before their grand final and um I was G'd up for it. I'm like, yeah, let's go. This is it's curry bulldogs um for the yeah, I know, right? And I'm a Lakes boy, so they just beat my um my lads the week before um to go up against Wes in the grand final at Wes' home ground, and then they destroyed them 22 to 8. Um and I'd like to think I had a part in in that because the talk I gave them was like as if I was ready to get in a plane and go gunfighting with them. It was yeah, I was like, I've got to calm down here. So I sat in the car for 10 minutes after it just to gather my thoughts before I go home and say hello to the wife again. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:09

Yeah, yeah. It's it's funny you say that because massive Brismane Broncos fan. Obviously, we won the premiership last year. Adam Walsh, former SSR, part of their human performance, whatever he does uh with the Broncos. But I heard there was a lot of stories where he went down to the change rooms. I think there was one specific time where Reese Walsh, 10 minutes in the bin, he's gone down there, Broncos behind against camera, the milk. He gets in there, has a little, you know, a couple of war stories in Walsh's ear. Comes out, Walsh kills it, wins the game, Broncos into the grand final.

SPEAKER_00 12:43

It's funny you say the Broncos. I was literally coming in here today, um, and I know you're a mad Broncos supporter. Staunch. Well, they're not very staunch at the moment. Anyway, but um I was analysing how and why they went the way they did last year, and they've got a better team in my eyes this year, one through the experience that they would have had um winning the competition, and two um going through high performance and the application of um delivering again. So um I'm not gonna bring the Panthers into this, but if you look at their how they've gone about business, what Madge did last year um and how he went about executing his intent, and um I've worked with Madge before when he was at the bunnies, um, and you know, they had their own vomit bucket, each each individual, and their preseason was growth. Like, yes, you're professionals, you will be paid as professionals, but you're expected to perform as professionals. Uh and you know, within the context of that, uh my question would be to Madge is what did he not do this year that was different from last year? Did he take his foot off the accelerator and go, okay, we've proven a point, you guys know what the expectations is, I will now not be as hard, and then we should be right. But complacency sets in as soon as you sit at the top of something, uh and I think that's sort of where I sort of go with it, is like Special Forces was a daily renewable contract. You always had to be on your game and performing and willing to learn and remain humble. And I think that's why everybody you've had from the community on the podcast, listening to their tone, listening to how they speak, uh there's a real sense of humility in their journey and understanding what they've done, how they did it, and you know the level in which they were willing to go to get the job done. Um, I find and I do a lot with sporting uh individuals now. I've I've actually got a golfer, uh he's only 15 and he's he's on tour at the moment. Um, and I've got a lot of young female athletes which seem to resonate and work a lot better with some of the conversations. Being a high performance coach, um it's again just makes me think, how can I implement this? How do I get the best out of an individual? And if I just stick to what I think that individual needs and don't actually see or learn or understand their journey, so it's always evolving. Uh and I think if I I do it with companies, I do it with business, um, how I try and help them uh understand that just because there's a way of doing it doesn't mean there's not someone else doesn't have another idea. And um yeah, so I really get into that aspect of dealing, but with the Broncos, it's like what did he do different? And what didn't he do to and why did he take his foot off the throat? Was it because, oh look, we did that last year, Madge? Give us a break this year. Did someone say, Look, we're professionals, we don't need to do this? Well ultimately, look at their performance this year. They had a phenomenal team.

SPEAKER_02 16:20

And then look at It's organisational as well.

SPEAKER_00 16:28

Of course, yeah, yeah. I'm just talking about the coach and I'm talking about magic.

SPEAKER_01 16:34

You'll make me cry. It just makes me We went from heroes to zeros.

SPEAKER_00 16:38

But that that was self-inflicted. 100% when I talk to uh sporting organisations, um, the first thing is what what are you what are your attributes? What are you what are you um what are your traits? What do you live and die by? And then how are you implementing that? How is it just words? Are they just words on a wall? Are they just like, oh that's our saying, we stick to that. How? How is that embedded in the soul of every every competitor that comes through this organization? And I think whatever they're doing at Penrith and the way that they're doing it at Penrith is you you couldn't bottle it. Like it it look it's obviously the temperament of the team behind the scenes. Yes, the coach hasn't uh has a has a system that he implements, but that system is backed by the core values of the club and what they want to achieve and how they go about achieving it. Because how many players have have they lost over the years now? And those players are then going on to be successful in the other clubs. But if you watch some of those other players leaving Penrith, they take a little bit to get to the level that they were previously at. So the system of Penrith and the process of Penrith could be used to make the competition not a professional competition, an elite competition. So I try and make people go, I'm a professional, cool. Do you want to be elite? Like, oh, I'm I'm I'm already at the top. I go, are you? Are you at the top? And this is where some of the professional athletes I and uh even my junior athletes, okay. Where do you what's your goals? What do you want to achieve? How do you want to achieve it? Um and like skill level, you have an elite ability, but you are at an amateur level of maturity and mindset and application. So that's only going to get you so far. You can have the like, and as you know, hard work beats skill when skill doesn't want to work.

SPEAKER_02 18:44

So the reason why we're talking about this, obviously, because you're in this space, and we spoke I think we spoke about it coming off your podcast. This is what you got into, you know, human performance stuff, uh, post military service. Just quickly on the like I I want to bottle that Penrith Panthers. What is it? What is it? How have they managed? And it doesn't even just compare with rugby league or anything else, it's just that attitude that club has built over the last five, six years and carried it on. They only lost last year just because it was just the Broncos day. Otherwise, they were gonna win that premiership again, they were gonna slaughter that premiership again. Exactly right, mate. So, what is it? Like, obviously, there's you've got to look at it in the military as well, you know. You're looking at uh the bottom level, especially during GWAT commandos at the bottom level, fucking stellar, sas at the bottom level, absolute stellar. What you guys were doing in Afghanistan and abroad and anywhere else around the world, it was to the best standard. Because I see the way I see it is the rank structure from you know, I guess company level and above, stayed out of it. They signed the paperwork, they did their things, but they stayed out of it and sent it. And I I feel that's what's happening at Penrith. Everything is just left to the coaches' level and below. He runs it, and I think that's where I guess some of the other clubs struggle, like the Broncos. I think there was a lot of general manager issues, a lot of CEO issues that shit rolls downhill. Well, they got on the bandwagon, didn't they? We're killing it. Exactly right, yeah. That's what I mean. That's what I mean. So why is Penrith? Like as a human performance coach like yourself, where do you see what how do how do you how do other people bottle this?

SPEAKER_00 20:28

Good question. Um, as an outsider looking in from coming from an organization that had consistency in their deliverables, I would say their processes, um, their round table discussions. So um when sitting in a in it, the methodology of a round table is everyone has value at the table. So um, and it's almost like to plan alone is to plan to fail. So bringing the right people to the table, understanding working to their their core values, um, their mission, which is their business model, which is success, which is winning a competition. You know, like if you're training to come second, you're doing something wrong. No one wants to come second. Like they're trying to bring in this third place playoff. No, you're playing for a trophy. You don't play for third place. Oh, we finished third, so you're the second loser. You know what I mean? Like so and you're the second loser, so I like that. You know what I mean? Like it's true. Yeah, it's true. It's like um everyone wants to win, so what have you got to do to win? So I did many moons, I'm gonna say 2022, maybe 21, um, was invited in to the Newcastle Knights to have a discussion. Um and as I was walking around, there was no memorabilia, and I understand that they just built their um high performance um centre of excellence. But a centre of excellence isn't just a name, it's a place where excellence is performed because that's the that's the place where we uphold standards, we uphold our values, uh, you know, and it's like your fortress. So your centre of excellence is your fortress, and you know, there's no memorabilia on the walls, there's what's your current values? They were going through remodeling their values, and I'm like, okay, when do we want to seek success? How do you put the foot on the throat and own the space of like, okay, we don't actually know what direction we want to go, but how do you not, as a professional organization, know what your values are? What you you we are a one club town. So, um, you know, and I sort of maybe spoke my tongue, spoke my mind, and that wasn't um what was required at the time, which is a good business lesson for myself. Um but again, it's the value in understanding the purpose. So when you bring a player in or a uh management personnel, they understand their roles, responsibilities, and what they're accountable for, who they're accountable to, and they get on with the job. They're not like, oh, I did this, can someone pat me on the back. Job's not done. And to be fair, your job will never be done unless you've won a hundred in a row. If you know, because you want that consistency. You want that, okay, what we're doing here is correct. And then as those people go to other organizations, it's like, oh no, we did this there. Well, no, you need to be flexible enough to now adapt to someone else's values and someone else's. But that doesn't mean you can't bring those traits and understandings of this works. Let's mould a little bit of this into that, you know.

SPEAKER_02 23:51

So I think leadership is a big thing too. I think you look at the Penriff Panthers, Nathan Cleary, Isaiah Yo, I think just the leadership between those two, just it just they set a standard and it it feels like they work with their players as well, rather than you know, the the old boss boss leader terminology, you know, don't be a boss, be a leader.

SPEAKER_00 24:12

Yeah, and they know if you watch them on TV, because I'm a people watcher, and you watch how they talk, um, they own and understand their space, they own and understand their responsibility to the game, ultimately to the games. Like, okay, cool. You're paying me this money, yeah, cool. They got to be worth that money. Like, people want, oh, I want a million bucks a year. Okay, what what values are oh I'm performing? Yeah, you're performing now, but you've had injuries this year, that year, you know. I mean, you've still got to be able to justify your existence. So, what are you bringing to the table? Just because you're performing well and you've had a run of good um performances doesn't mean longevity-wise you're worth that money. You need to show us how. And talk about leadership, you know, um I've got a mate of mine who's just come back from the UAE, and we're looking to affect uh so I don't market myself for the simple reason is that I want to make sure that my family and my family time is dedicated to them. And if I get an opportunity to come my way, I will then take that to the table with with the the wife. She typically goes, You're gonna do it anyway. And I'm like, I I really do try and involve her. Um, she's a director of my company, you know, like she has a seat at the table. Um, and then I I take all these people, oh, I've been offered this, or someone's engaged with me to provide this. What are your thoughts? Um, this is the timeline, this is the time frame that they want me to do. Um, what I'm finding within society, organizations in every shape and form, there is no leadership, there is no accountability, there is if you're in a certain role sitting at a desk and you're earning um $500,000 a year and you go, Oh, this incident happens, I want him sacked, have a good hard look in the mirror. Who put him in that position? So I was thinking about when um Mason Edwards was killed in training, and that's quite funny. The individual who was his team commander and supervisor at the time had already been in the organization for a couple of years and like, oh no, look, he's due for promotion, let's promote him. So look what happened. And everyone knows that not only is it his fault that uh Meso was killed in training because of incompetence at his level, who promoted him? We can't just do mates rates, and this is the thing about organizations and clubs and you know, look, football clubs. Oh, you you're a you've been at the club for ten years, when you retire, come back, we've got a position for you. Just because you were a good footballer doesn't mean you're a good coach. Doesn't mean you're a good uh manager. You know what I mean? Like so I think that's the real issue we have within our sporting organizations is no one's looking out to bring in because they don't want to upset the the vibe that they've created, but yet they're happy to lose.

SPEAKER_02 27:13

I think that's company in general, military in general as well, like like you just explained with the Mason Edwards incident. I actually saw something a Facebook blow up the other week. A couple of guys are going at each other.

SPEAKER_00 27:26

That's because he wasn't invited to the uh muster.

SPEAKER_02 27:28

It was going off.

SPEAKER_00 27:29

It was like, oh shit.

SPEAKER_02 27:31

Anyway, um mate, I yeah, I think that explains it. And I all that is uh applicable to everyday life for everyone that is listening. So definitely take that on board by the wise man. You're like a Yoda.

SPEAKER_00 27:44

I I'll say this to um organizations, sporting teams, and people that want to invest in their future. Uh, as you as a lot of people know, um, once your business becomes successful, it happens very quickly, and then you go, what next? Uh, there's a lot of people and professionals from not only the special forces but ex-military personnel that if you get the right ones, they will help you succeed. 100%. Um, our value, we undersell our value because all we want to do is just do the job. Um, but being out now and seeing where I can value add, especially with my younger athletes and uh being a high performance mental coach, even though I use sprinting as a discipline, um the processes that I'm helping develop, and then I'm working with their parents and okay, let's just try this. And there's a million one ways to skin the cat. We've just got to be open-minded enough to try different methods, and it's just a consciousness. I really preach consciousness these days of understanding your space, you know, every everything about breathing and taking a step back. Yes, be in the moment when it's time to be in the moment, but analyse, reassess, and go again.

SPEAKER_02 29:00

Yeah, exactly right, mate. Exactly. Yeah, mate's uh good little catch-up there. Good catch-up to see what you're doing, and you know, as much as I love Nathan Cleary too, fuck him. Fuck the Penroid Panthers, but uh we spoke last week, I flew off to Canada that day. Before we had a chat, we're more chatting. Probably in the last few months, DA Nile, direct action nile, aka objective nile, has been all the rage for probably yeah, you know, a few months now, and I've seen it pop up on Facebook, on on uh YouTube, etc., and all these things. And you know, we spoke about DA Nile on your podcast, but now I want to expand a bit more on it because again, it's all the flavour again, and not too many people know about it because a certain organization wanted it to be shunted away, I suppose, because it turned out to be one of the biggest scenarios in Afghanistan for the second commando regiment and or for RAR at that stage, was it? Yeah, for Rep R. And obviously, yeah, let's let's talk about it. And you know, my knowledge on DA Nile command commando, uh Australian commandos with uh JTF2, which is the Canadian uh special Tier 1 Special Forces uh in from Canada, basically land in Australian Chinooks as well, which is pretty cool. That's why we didn't use our air assets more in Afghanistan, no one fucking knows. We've got plenty of them, but we'll talk about that. Land in, hit this ejective, happens to command a come in on a on a uh land move, and then JTF bug off in these Helos, and obviously commandos are left to deal with the rest of the overwhelming force of the Taliban. Obviously, that is just a short little soldiers five. DA nile. Yeah, let's talk about it, Craig.

SPEAKER_00 31:02

Just before we start, um there is an interview and the process for anyone that wants to look at it on um the war memorial we did go down there. So it's quite funny when they told us they were gonna do a 20-year reunion. Um, so I've rang up and gone. So we're doing a 20-year reunion for a gunfight that doesn't exist. Um, yeah, yeah, we are. We're getting them in from so we had the Dutch Apache pilots come in, um the Kansov uh commanders come in, uh everyone was was brought in for a gunfight that doesn't exist, and by that I mean it was forgotten. Uh and it's funny how um it's come to light now. You know, when I was in the regiment even from 2008, 2010, 2012, and so on, guys would say, Oh, Helmand was was crazy, it was epic, it was like the best gunfighting. And you know what? I agree um to an extent. I didn't have the luxury of doing the fly-in jobs into Helmand Province, I was at the school as an instructor. Um but in 06 um when we did this, when we did DAN it it changed the whole perspective of not just the commandos and what we're capable of, but what the Australian forces are capable of. Um with the the way that we applied our skills uh and our pilots were just standard not F SF pilots. They were just Aussies keen to do a job. Aussie Raff, yeah. Aussi Raf, keen to do a job, and it's funny how flippant they talk about it on the uh interview. So by all means, seriously, get onto the War Memorial site and check out their four hour.

SPEAKER_02 32:57

I think it's on YouTube, I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure.

SPEAKER_00 33:00

Okay. But um yeah, day nile was the prelude to Op Perth, which was the clearer clearance of Chora, the Chora Valley, up to the Bellucci Pass um in 2006. I think it was the 82nd Airborne, was the infantry battalion that was used by the Americans on DA uh on uh Op Perth. But anyway, back to D. A nyl. So this was it's quite funny. The 9th and 10th of July 2006, which was Brett Wood's twenty-eighth birthday, um before we're going out. So how they explain it, and I didn't get into the politics of uh how it was explained, but I really do in uh appreciate how it came about is obviously we had our list of um enemy rank structure and targetings like we you know, ace of spades, we'd have like deck of cards. Uh and as we were getting and coming up closer to Op Perth, we're asset driven. And you know, we're even dictated to by what state the moon is in, to how we activate and what assets are available to work under uh certain like m uh moonlight. It's a big planning cycle. Literally it'll go into um oh we've got this assets that can provide this, this, this, and this. So we had no assets really uh available. Um it was originally meant to be a complete Australian job, um, but because op Perth was coming up and our assets or our uh contingencies kept getting pushed to the right, op Perth was going to happen on these dates. So what we tried to do and what the idea was from the um planning team was to disrupt as much as we could prior to op Perth happening. So we wanted to target uh Taliban key leadership in g uh individuals, which were HVIs, so high-valued individuals. And we had a list on the JPEG or whatever it's called Japelle list. Um I think we were tracking about 12 on that list, and as the time became critical to get into op Perth, we couldn't target all of them. So the idea from the planning and the the the brass was okay, who is the most valuable that we can hit that's gonna have the biggest effect prior to trying to clear Chora Valley. Now Chora Valley and the battle uh up Perth was nine days, and this is post-DA, but in those nine days we still killed over 150, 200 Taliban, just clearing through a valley. So it was you can only imagine if we didn't do DA Nile, how many Taliban and how many could we have had more casualties and then we're talking No one ever sees that amount of enemy, you know, especially post those uh early deployments because enemy evolved. They changed their tactics, they'd work in ten-man teams, then they went to five-man teams, then they went to raid teams, then they went to individuals who would um try and engage you, then run back, and then try and blow you up. So there were so many different tactics that was employed. So we never really got to see post-06 this amount of individuals in one concentrated area trying to cause harm. Um so as the task went up and then our Perth brethren couldn't take the job because they were supposed to be focused on uh op Perth and the preparation for Op Perth, the uh lead for the DA went to JTF2, which is as you stated, the Tier 1 Canadian uh joint task force. Um and so they took it, they took all our planning, we helped set set it up, all the assets were available, um the Americans wouldn't land on target, so their uh actions on all their procedures, standard operating procedures wouldn't allow them to land on um or next to the target. So that was a a automatic no-go for the Canadians. They're like, well, we don't want to land 300 metres off and have to fight our way in because you lose the element of surprise. So uh they came and saw our Aussie Chinook pilots um weapons, I love them. Uh and I had a good catch-up with them in Canberra when we did the um the reunion. Uh and they said, Yeah, we can do that. And within four days, so these the our Aussie Chinooks that were in country, I think we only had two or four at the time, they were resupply Chinooks. They weren't like DA Chinooks where you'd have all your gun runs and you have the um ability to refuel in the air, so which as they explained, played into how we actually got s the Canadians onto target without the Taliban actually recognising that there was Helos coming into that area. So with the Aussie Chinooks, they came in, they four days of rehearsals day and night with the Canadians, jobs on.

SPEAKER_02 38:41

Surprised that the defence force allowed it.

SPEAKER_00 38:44

Because we're so risk averse. True, but I think because our planning up and to the point was and these are the commanders that are on the ground, and uh if you talk to Kev and the guys like they were told to abort, and he uh he reckons he didn't hear it, and the other pilots are like, Well, Kev says we're still going, we're still going. So they not only did they have to drop them in there on target, they then had to pick them up.

SPEAKER_02 39:10

And it was under IR as well. Yeah, yeah. There was no moonlight.

SPEAKER_00 39:13

There was no moonlight, then you got brownout, then which brownout is you know, when your your roto wash is pushing down in the desert, all you're flicking up is the bull dust. Is dust, is bull dust. So not even just dust. It's like tau, it is fine. You turn it into a mud pie within seconds. It's yeah, it's real fine. And anyway, so that's another thing that they had to deal with. But when they landed on and then the Canadians got off, and their procedures, if you as I said, just l listen to it or watch it on YouTube.

SPEAKER_02 39:43

Um sorry, just quickly, where are you guys you guys are staged?

SPEAKER_00 39:48

Yeah, so we the the plan was for us is we could we thought about having a uh Hilo mounted QRF, but the best decision that um our boss decided was it's just not gonna help brown out night, light. We have to vehicle move. But with our vehicle move, we couldn't compromise the mission because we had to be in position before the Canadians come in. So we had to be far enough off target that the target didn't think that they were the target, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 40:24

How far are we talking?

SPEAKER_00 40:25

Oh, we were definitely a couple of K's off target.

SPEAKER_02 40:28

And obviously the advantage with the vehicles is you've got fifties, you've got more ammo, more bombs, more thanks. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 40:34

That was the the concept. Yep. And with the Bushmasters, if we needed to take in some of the Canadians, we could take some of their casualties and we could get them out, or we could at least have a fighting chance if we just had our gun cars, which was the initial plan. We unless they were going to fight on foot next to our vehicles, which having the gun cars was a a bonus and a d detraction, as in we didn't have any extra seats, but we had the heavy weapons on top, and we had uh situational awareness. So if you're sitting inside a bushmaster, besides looking out the window, you can't see the battle unless you're up out of the top. And we had dedicated um individuals who were on the gun the whole time. Um and I it's funny, I only just I know the I know the individual um from the regiment, Benny Burroughs, he was actually my car gunner up in that front Coola Um for the whole night, and all I saw was legs, and I'm just handing him ammo. But I I totally forgot until I saw him 20 years later that he was actually my my gunner at the front gun. And he was just out the whole time whaling on Taliban because at the back Capola, which is um once we all in uh in got back in the vehicles, would have Geordie or one of the boys out of the two rear Capolas, but dedicated to the vehicle, besides the driver from the six RER boys, we would have one individual who would stay with the vehicle and they would be the armament, which was only a 58, wasn't even a 50 cow. Yes, 762 and plenty of ammo. Another luxury of having the bushmasters is just extra ammo. But yeah, so I totally forgot that he was all I could see was legs, but he was just up there working the whole night just whaling on Taliban. Um, yeah, so and talking to the now uh so command RSM, he had a tire on top of his bushmaster uh and the guy that was out of his Coppola, when they finished and got back to base, they found 80 brass casings inside that tyre. So they were shot at that individual. And he he even dropped down a couple of times and goes, Do I have to get your job, mate? Get up there. And he just got straight back up. Not a question. So yeah, just nuts. But um, yeah, I mean I digressed. Uh we were off a couple of kilometres, and um it was funny. We were supposed to go to a FAP, so a form-up point or a final assault position. Um and we just rolled straight through it. And overcoms is like troops in tick, which is troops in contact, and which was JTF2. JTF2. So they landed on the target. On a hot HLZ. Well, it wasn't a hot HLZ because they did get the element of surprise when they landed. Like they talk about how people were asleep in the fields because it was summer, and you know, rude shock is that's he's gonna get his his ass handed to him, but that's they had fighters everywhere. We're talking I couldn't even tell you how many uh Taliban commanders were in the area. There was there was that many and there was that many fighters, and they just didn't stop. Anyway, so we were about a couple of K's off target and we were just waiting, we just rolled straight through our uh final assault position, and literally we got to certain areas, they were in a gunfight over to our west. Um, we had to find our way to get them. Um and you know, this again, what's the the footage that we talk about how we got ambushed and we could have stayed in that ambush and fought our way and killed all the enemy, but that wasn't our mission. So we spent a couple of hours fighting in to our uh HLZ overwatch and secure position to enable the JDF guys to uh withdraw for extraction. So we spent a couple of hours doing that. I think H hour, which is the uh initiation of the gunfight, and was like 1 a.m. in the morning. Um, so we just moved all the way through. We secured our area at about just after three, I think, and then they fought their way to us. Uh and then um by fight I mean we're talking hundreds of Taliban coming from all directions. It was nuts. It was if you were conditioned, you've got to remember that 06 was was Delta, that was our first deployment, and this was probably our second what the first gunfight was the 19th of June, where I talk about in the podcast about like shooting kangaroos in the paddock, where we counted their ambush. So again, luck. But you know, like we got like 35, and like, oh that's that's pretty good. Like we're talking about humans here, and um yeah, then to go into DA nile and if we hadn't had that little bit of um conditioning from the 19th of June, again, what would have happened? But we have no choice, we have to fight, we're in the fight, and they are relying on us, which is where the Chinook's coming in, landing on target, dropping them off, um, which is a story in its itself from the Canadian story. Straight into conf uh conflict, straight into into battle for hours. And they had this American attached to them, um, the JDF guys, and he'd been in and around and they tell the story, but I'll I'll tell it anyway. They had this uh American who'd been in and around like Delta Force and that for like twenty, thirty years, forty years even.

SPEAKER_02 46:08

And um Was that the signals or the intelligence guy? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I agree about it.

SPEAKER_00 46:12

He'd ne he'd never been shot or injured in combat before, and like they'd been um I think they had their partner force, so they still ran in with a uh Special Forces Afghani force which was trained by them, and it apparently they were good to go. Um but they got ambushed down an alleyway uh or ship broke loose. Anyway, this Canadian bloke, he'd been shot through the wrist and it came up through his thumb and blew the top of his thumb off. Um he didn't know that, he just thought he had his top of his thumb blown off, but the round, as you know, it hits a bone little ricochet, and lucky enough it came out the top of his thumb. He got shot in the leg. And by the time the JDF commander on the ground got to him, he'd already tourniquet his own leg and was already back in the gunfight. So he was and people don't understand like fight or flight, you got no choice. At war. There's only fight. There's only fight. And if you put your hand up, go give me five minutes, you're dead. You know what I mean? And the ruthlessness of religion, uh, and if you look at Afghan the way it is, uh, and has always been, they don't have TV. They have one guy preaching, or a a someone who preaches a methodology or an ideology, or and then that's that's all they believe. So these guys are willing to die. No dramas. It's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 47:38

We've only got another 15-20 minutes. Just quickly, like just I just want to break this quickly down for the for the listeners so they they get a bit of a picture of what's going on here. For me, it's it is very not similar, but it's if you watch Black Hawk down, it's something very similar where JTF are coming in on the uh Aussie uh choppers, they land in on target, objective Nile is the the main commander that obviously are after. This turned out to be the massive Shura area. It was like a slumber party for the Taliban for that for those two nights. They land in, get the job done. I I I think I was reading that uh old mate uh Nile was about to fire an RPG and he's just fucking put down on the spot. Get into a massive gunfight. Two commander, you guys have moved into the you know your position, you've passed the FUP or the FAP, moved in to obviously help extract those JTF guys to your location so the Chinooks could come back in, pick them up. Obviously, you guys are in vehicles, they come down and pick up from here. You guys are now the main force on the ground. Obviously, all the attention has turned onto the vehicles. Yep. And just quickly, we're we're talking 1 a.m., 2 a.m. 3 a.m. this this breaks into to the sunrise. How are the Taliban saying? Have they got night vision? Is it obviously there there has to be. If they're all the commanders around, they've got some warmth.

SPEAKER_00 49:02

You would you would think so. Um, but I even if they did it the brownout. So I'm gonna be real quick because I'm like you said, 15 minutes. Um, but I can do this. Alright, so we've we've talked about uh the break-in, we've talked about killing DA Nile, we've talked about uh the Canadians breaking back to our position to consolidate before extracting to the HLZ. We were in a position to overwatch and secure the HLZ from a without securing every corner of the HLZ. The Taliban was super smart. Um yes, they were hitting us still in our positions, um, but they had set up a uh an ambush. So they'd gone back to silent running, set up an ambush, knowing that the only way that the Canadians are going to get out is from the aircraft. The aircraft were going to come in. So they were sitting lying doggo out of the gunfight with us, which we were still getting hit from the other guys. So they were well coordinated, they were well disciplined, and they were well led. Um, you know, and hence why we were going after their leaders because these guys could have caused us a lot of harm on Opp Perth. But um, so the Chinooks were coming in and they got the abort message. Uh the Canadians didn't even know if the Australians were going to come back because they knew how hot the HLZ was. So the landing zone was just the whole area was just Taliban full. Uh and um they were coming regardless. So they were running hot, refueling, constant on the go, waiting for the go go go from the ground troops to come and get extracted. They got up, they come straight in on target, they ignored the abort um and just go, fuck it. The only way these guys are getting out is by us. And um they had miniguns and they had their 58s out the back, so they had some pretty cool weapon systems.

SPEAKER_02 50:57

Which were turning and burning the whole time.

SPEAKER_00 50:59

Which were turning and burning the whole time. But you've got to look at these guys had never done a direct action before. And a direct action doesn't mean you're always gonna go and hit a uh um a a healthy target with plenty of Taliban or targets on you might hit a dry hole. They they They hit the Hornet's nest. They hit the Hornet's nest uh of DAs, and this is their first one, and this is also the Dutch Apache's first one. Uh and as you as I listen to their stories, they talk about how they took this gunfire and they changed all their teachings on how to um facilitate working with other uh government agencies andor mission success. Anyway, so our boys came in, came in hot, landed on this HLZ. I think they're on the ground for maybe 30 seconds a minute. So that's all their rehearsals in that four days that they did with the Canadians. Boom. As soon as they landed, the Taliban were that disciplined that they didn't even shoot when the helicopters landed. They waited until everybody was on the aircraft.

SPEAKER_02 52:04

Trying to effective, take down maximise the effect of the damage.

SPEAKER_00 52:08

So this is how disciplined the Taliban were, and as soon as those Helos were full and ready to take off, all hell broke loose. And we're talking RPGs, heavy weapons, tracer rounds. So tracer rounds are like uh a light round, as in like it illuminates red, red, red, red. So you can see where your rounds are striking. Anyway, they fired everything at these birds.

SPEAKER_02 52:32

That's crazy. Because that extortion 17.

SPEAKER_00 52:35

Yeah, the boys took off. So we'd already lost one of the Apaches, he'd already been shot in the air, so he had to go and do an emergency landing back at TK. So we only had one uh Apache helicopter for escort um and to get them off target. So they took off and not one round. RPGs were going under their car, uh under their aircraft, above their aircraft, not one round hit. Um, so you know, talk about luck or the hand of God or if you believe in if you're religious or whatever it is that you did to do to get that. It was just we were asking questions. How many injuries, how many um casualties? None. How was the aircraft? Not a hole. It's like, get fucked. It was like watching it. I was on the edge watching this erupt, and then it was funny, they took off. And you could have counted down from ten, and it got to three, two, one, and all you see is like it's like they're um zeroed in, changed their angle, and all broke loose coming our way. So we then had to well, they're out, now we had to fight our way out, and then so their orders from the um Taliban commander was capture as many as you can and kill the rest. That's how many they had, and that that was their mission. And for the next five hours, um, with Spectre, so Spectre is the um gunship which is on station with uh AC-130 with 105s and 40 40 mil um high explosive rounds on it, we'd sent one or two of them Winchester, which is out of ammunition, and the last one was Winchester and then Bingo, which is no ammo, no fuel, and because they had the light to show us one where the enemy were, and two, help us uh navigate out because of the brownout, like the amount of rounds that the Taliban were firing, that we were firing, it was like you were in a sandstorm. So you it was like like you said, the Taliban might have had night vision, but it would have been useless. You were literally just seeing a target, identifying a target, eliminate the target. That was it. So um, you know, we spent the next five hours uh really fighting our way out, um, grenades over walls, um, like point-blank range. Uh they were running through our position, trying to get people out of the cars to capture them, to drag them away. So they didn't care. They just needed to capture someone. Uh we had our some of our cars were getting skull dragged out because they were just shot the shit. The guys would get into their car, out of their car, the car would get hit, we would have to get out of our bushmaster, break to a cover position, uh, engage the Taliban so our boys could get back into their cars so they could keep going. Then we had to break contact back to our bushmasters. It was just the battle rhythm was really good and the communication was great in chaos because it's organized chaos. It's like, well, this needs to happen, let's make it happen. So it's not just dealing with the unknown, it was react, react, react.

SPEAKER_02 55:41

How many vehicles? There's seven, seven, I think there was.

SPEAKER_00 55:43

Yeah, so there was one, two, two. So how many commandos? Uh commandos in total, our whole thing with our drivers, because I'm just going to make us all one is was 40.

SPEAKER_02 55:55

So 40 strong, seven vehicles.

SPEAKER_00 55:56

Yeah, so gunfighting foot soldiers, not um, not talking about the guys that stayed with the vehicles, was 24. Yep. 24 like mobile commandos on the ground when we needed to be. Um, and then we had our bushmaster drivers from six RAR. Or Bushies? No, we had uh three Bushmasters, and then I think and four SRVs, so uh short reconnaissance vehicles, yeah. So um, yeah, and it was just nuts, just and then as we spoke about with Geordie, you know. I in we talked about the first one on the 90th of June, I saw Geordie um hit one of the Taliban on the chest with a 40 mil grenade and it just pink missed. It's like, oh my god, Geordie, that was like the best thing I've ever fucking seen. And it was the first round, so it's like my target indication must have been good, and then he just adjusted, yep, cool, no dramas, whack. I'm like, sweet, like good fire control, Lord, I'll take that. But he the execution of it was just next level. Anyway, so again, DA Nile was the first time I actually had to do my job as a tour I see, and then actually tell myself, hey, you're a tour I see, you can't get out of that Capola. You have to run ammo and uh making sure that we're we're not gonna run out of ammo, making sure people are good to do that. So I as much as I wanted to get up out of the Coppola, I just knew that my job was I'd a battle manager. I was a battle manager. And then no, Brett was in the car managing, making sure we didn't get disconnected from the other call signs. Yeah, Brett Wood was yeah, yeah. I was his two I see. And then I was in the back going, fuck, I'd love to get up. But I was just giving target indications out their window, and like, Geordie, yeah, see this guy moving right to left. Yeah, boom, one shot. I'm like, Geordie, you're a magician, mate. Like one round drop this guy. It's like amazing. So um, yeah, it was interesting. And then um, you know, they were trying to ambush us by using their cattle, so their their goats, they'd come in crouching down next to their cattle, trying to ambush us. Um, we picked them off. Um, they would set up more ambushes, we'd have to fight through those ambushes. I mean, some of our cars got hit, we had to push uh another bushmaster in front of that car so that they could get back in their cars. The biggest thing for us was is if we stay here, we're going to die. So, you know, the commanders on the ground, like regardless of how many enemies are in that position, we have to keep moving. Yeah, we we killed a couple of hundred, cool. Um, but we lost nobody. And then coming out of that gunfight just on first light, um This is from about 3 a.m., isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 58:34

Ish.

SPEAKER_00 58:34

Well the gunfight itself with the with um JTF. When JTF disappeared. Was no no when they yeah, so about three, yeah, just after 3.20 a.m. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:44

So I mean like when you guys started and how far are you moving from that point of extraction of JDF to where you have to be? So I think it stops at about 6 30 a.m. in the morning. Yeah. How far have you travelled? And at that point, this is where the Taliban were leapfrogging with you guys. So you'd fight, they'd leapfrog in front, set another ambush, and it was just like that continually until it ended.

SPEAKER_00 59:07

Yes. Uh, and like I said, we had to just keep moving, otherwise we were gonna die. And we knew like they were converging on us. So we were our position, as steadfast as we were and able to maintain our position, they were they refused to withdraw. They were just happy to die for the cause, and to capture us for them was a trophy. So, and they and so we've got to keep going, we've got to keep going, and we just had to keep moving. So it was good that um, you know, I was all about bullets and beans, and the commanders are all about getting us out of there, and everyone was just on the trigger, doing what they needed to do. Um, it was it was next level, it was epic. Um, but what I learned about soldiering on that trip, uh that was probably my biggest growth as a soldier uh on that, not just because of the gunfights, but what I learnt as a junior commander and what I learnt from my platoon sergeant Frank uh about how to manage soldiers. That was yeah, for me amazing. But you know, coming out of there and then the um meeting up with the Perth guys who were our ended up being our QRF.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:13

Yeah, the three uh three squadron, I think it was. Yeah, and it's like fuck. So they met you at a point.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:18

We were already out of the gunfight. So if they were a little bit earlier, they would have been able to get in the gunfight with us, which would have been even better. Like just for the camaraderie of knowing that we're in the same gunfight would have been awesome. Um in hindsight, but they didn't get there till first light, so it was dope.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:36

I heard from an operator they were coming out to save you guys. Sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:41

But honestly, they had body bags lined up back at TK because they were expecting they were ex mass cases.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:49

Is there photos of the vehicles and um surely someone's got photos of the vehicles all cunning up and Yeah, I Someone has to.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:58

It's funny because we went back the next day. We all got interviewed by media, but military media and and um documented for the historians, and then the next day after that we went out on out Perth. So there wasn't really much time Just straight back into it. Yeah, it's like get my vehicle, I need a vehicle. So literally the the Boffins were just working their ass off, like and the relationship we have with our support staff, and and by support, they're just as as much in this um as anyone. And I talk about this even now. It's like everybody has a role to play, and everyone needs to be appreciative of like even the person that makes my coffee. I'm more I'm better off because you're making me a good coffee. So I appreciate you. I could be a lawyer, a doctor, whatever it is, uh, and this is where I sort of take understanding of value in everybody. 100%.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:51

Yeah, I've said this on podcasts, multiple, multiple people I've reached out to cooks, Air Force, and like, oh I'm I'm just a nobody. So mate, you're you're you're a cog of the wheel. Everyone's got their parts. Like they say, bombs don't fly with no supply. Yeah, mate.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:06

Um, but I will I will say, like we've got to get our double A batteries from somewhere. Ah. But they think that that's insignificant, but it's like just part of the wheel. That could be going into my music box for morale. 100%. You know what I mean? Like exactly right. And it's like it is all part of the world. Just generally wear those double A's went to the battle training. Yeah. Um, but yeah, so and it again, I'll digress and we've I think we've done DA and I, but um where we're looking at at the moment and and the way the country's going, you know, we talk about leadership, and Albanese's apparently the leader of this country. Um well no, you're the individual who has been picked by appointed by the people. By the people for the people. So to represent the people. Yeah. You're not a leader. It's not happening. You're not a leader, yeah. No. Like, you you're a voice. Be the fucking voice, mate. Yeah. Anyway, okay. I had to get that in there.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:05

No, mate, I fucking see it. Um every week I'm just I come back from Canada, I'm like, oh there's a rate rise coming soon. Again, I just what's next? I live what's next.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:15

I live by affect what you can affect and swim in your lane. So there's a lot of great people out there doing a lot of great things, um, verbalizing. Um two worlds collide, big joggy, big joggy, yeah, Chocko, uh, Scojo, um, Berjo, all the I am affecting the people. So I'm trying to change meth mental resilience in the individual. So I I live by affect what you can affect and swim in your lane. My lane is making better people. So that's how I'm going to attack this.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:52

Perfect, mate.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:53

And it is a battle. It it is. Yeah. We've got to fight together. So that I'm just yeah, people go, Oh, why aren't you a voice? I'm like, I am a voice. You are, you're changing at a lower level, yeah, for sure. Or at a different level. At a smaller level, yeah, yeah, for sure. Which builds layers anyway.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:06

Well it does. It does, it does, it does, because obviously you look at the you know, the most recent you've got to go, go. I'll go go for a business. No, we've we've got about five or ten minutes left. Oh, yeah. Okay. I'm gonna go for a biz. He's got a bladder of an old man. Uh yeah, well, you know, we've come up to the end of the you know, that was really good, actually. The really good start of the podcast talking about the human performance. I love all that stuff, and then moving into that DA Nile stuff. Again, like I said, in the last six months or so, it's popped up again, and there's another uh, you know, another stamp of exactly what happened on that day, and it sounded absolutely right, absolutely wild. Like I referenced it, it was kind of like the the scene in Black Hawk Down, you know, at the end there where they're they're doing like a bit of a fighting withdrawal to their back to the base.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:00

My my question to the command was so we've just had a reunion for a fight that doesn't exist. When is it going to be declassified and what is the outcome of that? Um no one chases battle honours, but that battle deserves its own honour. Yes, we got the uh unit UCG for the first three rotations. Um, but for something for it's almost a forgotten battle of Afghanistan.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:31

15 awards, I'm pretty sure. There was one SG, five MGs.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:35

Yeah, I think that was for not just that gunfight, that was for also uh OP Perth. Perth. So it was it was a culmination of of that period of time. Okay, gotcha.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:43

Yeah. But still, 15 awards for those two per 10 days max. Yeah. That's pretty pretty intense. Pretty intense. Yeah. Yeah, you're right. Well when is it gonna be declassified?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:56

Well, apparently it has been. Apparently. I mean it must be, we're all talking about it. Yeah. But it's almost a forgotten battle, and it's like what defines and what makes two commando regiment or the second commando regiment what it is now? And it's moments like this. That was one of them. Yeah, well, it it's not yes, that was a defining moment on where we fit within the command and what we are capable of as humans. 24 gunfighters on the ground, 40 total, I get it. Up against up to 300 Taliban. Not one casualty. We had mission success and then the history books are written. But it needs to be spoken more ripe about, and and we need to get these stories out, we need to get the right people on for sure to to tell these stories. No, the late Nick Hill wasn't even in the battle and he understood the significance of DA Nile. Um so anyway, uh Yeah, it's it's a crazy life. Um I don't live in the past though. I really try and live in the moment. I I appreciate the person I am now from my past, but um I don't want to be humbled again in in that sort of manner. You know, like because who knows, be humbled or dead. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:17

So Yeah, mate. Uh who knows? We could be back in Afghan in the next few years. It's starting to turn it on over there. I think they're that's uh they just come out the other day, the force that's fighting against the Taliban now, it's just fuck here we go again. For nothing, mate, for it to go the way it did again. We left, now women can't do nothing, kids can't, girls can't go to school. Where are the f where's Greta Thunberg now? Where are you, mate?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:45

Go go over there. But were we there to affect Religion, or were we there to um stop religion coming to us? Because if we're there to change and let their girls I mean, it's still their way of life, I get that. But if they just stayed in their parameters of their country, preach whatever you want. If people don't want to live in that country, they will leave. But if they're happy and they're in it, you reap what you sow. So, you know, were we there to change religion? Or w kid women were going to school when we were there?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:20

Definitely we were. Because you know, you go back to the 60s and 70s, holiday destination.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:24

Well then did we do enough to achieve that? Definitely not. Correct. Because we left. Not only that, but at in the time that we were there.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:31

There definitely there were changes. Yeah. By far. I agree. Cities were changed. Kabul. You could kids were going to school. I know, man.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:38

Kids were reading, there were books, there were Well, I was in Kabul in oh uh 2017, six seventeen, with um uh Turnbull as his PST. Yeah. But there was change. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:51

There was in the Gen H there was the cities were slowly starting to reform and become pathways for people to live their lives and do their things. Now they can't even women can't even talk to each other in public. That's madness. Well, they've just doubled down, haven't they? Well, yeah, there's more, yeah. It's it's anyway. It's it's an evolution that's just never gonna change. It's just ever evolving into the same shithole. Do we isolate or do we fight? That's the question. What is what's what's what's your answer? It's yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:26

A little bit of column A, a little bit of column B. Yeah, that's it. That's exactly right. Where's the serpent? Find the serpent, cut the head off the serpent.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:34

Meanwhile, the kids are here protesting about Pauline Hansen. Oh my god. They've got no idea. No idea. There was one kid right at the end of the video who's like, Oh, I don't know. I'm just taking the day off school. I'm like, I'm with that kid. Smart.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:45

That's the kid I like to be. But he looked like a school shooter too. And we're gonna get into the politics of it now, but mainstream media only put on what they wanted to put on.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:54

Yeah. Come on, guys. Like I think Big Chockey put up a reel this morning. Obviously, by the time this comes out, he put up a reel and it looks like news.com.eu has used the same photos from the Bill M Black Lives Matter protests about racism and stuff from five four years ago. The same you cheeky mainstream media motherfucker.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:16

And people who haven't got the time, besides people like that's his business is to he's an investigator. He's a journalist. Yeah, he's a he's a journalist and investigator, and it's like, uh-uh, nah, but who sees his posts? Who's unless you follow him? Exactly right. Mainstream media won't even let you close to being a figure within so it's hard. It's like how do you fight your fight? Yeah. How much energy do you put in fighting that fight? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:41

So just quickly, where do you see us going in the next couple of years? You know, we've got the state elections. Downhill. And then the federal federal elections, because we look I know this is getting political now, but we can't survive under this this current government. It's just This regime. This it 100%. Yeah, it's this guy is an absol this guy is the biggest clown that this country has ever seen.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:02

Yeah, but who does he work for? He doesn't work for us.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:05

I think we all know the answer to that.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:06

We do, and that's what I mean. So it's like Pauline Hansen will be better, but once they get her their fingers, everybody has to be accountable to somebody. And it's like, okay, is it better the devil you know? Uh and then how do they implement and and I appreciate Pauline's willingness to sit in that position and to be in that position, but certain organizations, unless she conforms, will not allow her to stay and be in that position. That's just how the world goes around. It's like, nah, you're not, you're not fulfilling our needs, see you later. For sure. So I cannot stand the corruption in the high ranks uh at the moment. So better the devil, you know, let's put Pauline in and we might get some respite, but for how long?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:53

Yeah, well, exactly right.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:54

And then when are the Australian people gonna stand up and realise and start fucking fighting for our rights to live in our own fucking country the way that we want to do, which is free, have fun, Aussie way, like we're all working now to pay these fucking stupid taxes. Like, where do they get their money from? And we're sending all our money overseas. If we've got enough money to send overseas, we're paying too much tax. But yet we've got to pay more taxes because these guys just keep selling out our country. We have we are the most um resource-rich country and we have none of it, we own none of it, and it's like it frustrates me. So all I'm gonna do, as I say, is swim in my lane and affect what I can affect. Yeah, so um yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:41

That's it. That's it. Which is changing the attitude at the bottom.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:46

It's the same thing as organizations. If we can affect and make changes with morale attitudes at the lower level, especially within the police, if we can change the lower levels of the police, so when they become inspectors, when they become superintendents, they go, you know what? I'm gonna be the fucking good officer. I'm gonna be that good commander. Which is integrity. Exactly right.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:05

If you can maintain your integrity and put your hand on your heart and go, you know what, I might have fucked up and I didn't have integrity in that moment, but by Christ, I'm gonna have now and I'm gonna hold myself to account because it and until you do, it just becomes a self-licking ice cream of corruption. And yeah, that's my analogy. I love it.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:24

Self-like yeah, it's it's a military one too. Mate, uh right, Aaron, 13 minutes. Appreciate you coming back. Uh always good to see you. You too, mate. Like I said, mate, let's go get some sushi. We live around a corner, mate. But I know, I know, I know. And actually, I did uh get my Ute, get my trays done, my drawers in the back of my Ute done.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:47

By one of my good mates, who lives around the corner from me.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:50

Absolutely, stellar dude. Uh Tucker's Tucker's Lane Carpentry. Yep, Tucker's Lane out there uh in the area of Newcastle. Do you want some awesome drawers? I've got these pretty cool drawers made to go out shooting a lot. So I've got these drawers made for my for my guns and stuff like that. And it's he's now absolutely now all custom. Integrity in his work.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:10

You can just see it.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:11

100%.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:11

And like it's so hard. Lovely people too. So hard to find someone that is dedicated to the task. And that's money, that's money. And then they just forget to put a bolt in here and there. You know what I mean? It's like no.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:24

And they've got some accommodation out there. So if you're in the area and you want to go stay out there, they've got Tucker's Lane boutique accommodation. 15 acres or something.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:30

They've got all these little acres and they've got like nine, uh seven cabins. Yeah. Um, they've got their own webbing uh wedding facility now. Yeah, mate, it's great. Yeah, there you go, Tucker's Lane. I'm Tucker's Lane, yeah. Talking you're up, Carolyn. All right. Hey, Paul. Yeah. Shout out to us.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:47

Hey, yeah, appreciate you. And uh stay in contact if anyone wants to reach out, find Berg's on social media.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:53

Yeah, hardcore human performance, literally across all socials. Um, andor uh email me and then we'll start that business journey together. So I think the biggest thing is in once you engage, um, because I'm such a niche capability and they find their way, they forget it's like you need consistency in how you deliver and then coming back and doing an analysis of your performance and go, what do you think? Oh yeah, let's let's now work on this. Because every day's a day to grow and every day's a day to learn. Um, so what I need to do is understand my value in the space and um make sure one, I'm not underselling myself, um, because if I'm gonna put that much time and effort into it, like I've got a client tomorrow on Saturday, my wife's like said, Yes, darling, it's alright, it's paid, it'll be good, no dramas. And it's only an hour and a half, but it's an hour and a half on my Saturday.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:46

So um Family time. I need to not be a yes man, but I'm like, okay, cool, they're gonna pay. Yeah, exactly right.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:52

Exactly right. Last question, mate. Can you fix this fix the Broncos?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:56

I can.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:57

Imagine you're listening.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:58

I can. Um, I think it's with any organisation. I think that we're just using them as a prime example, as in um don't just rest on your laurels. 100% if you've set a system that worked, you need to double down on that system, but obviously refine it because no one's gonna like to be flogged with a bucket, a spew bucket every pre-season. But that doesn't mean that their mindset can't be prepped and ready for that pre-season and then they're conditioned differently because each each preseason, each step they go through is is a it's a process and it's a day of learning. So it's like, okay, next year I guarantee there's gonna be spew buckets at Bronx at the Broncos.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:36

Yeah. So there should be.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:38

Well, they they let you they've let you down.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:40

They've let me down. It's like a fucking emotional roller coaster.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:43

I just their roster just says otherwise, and I'm like, where the fuck? Is it the execution? Is it the application? Is it the leadership? Is it you know what I mean? And it's like you've rested on your laurels, this has happened.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:57

I feel for me it is a organis organisational issue at a GM level. Uh wrong selections of players. Okay, yeah. And I think Madge hasn't had full control.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:11

Definitely not, yeah. But again, round table discussion.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:15

Yeah, 100%. And 100%. And we've had that issue for the last five or six years with and letting players go like pain husse. Are you Are you fucking stupid? That's like giving away a fucking purple diamond.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:26

Correct, but why is he always injured now?

SPEAKER_02 1:17:29

Because it's a mindset. Well, because he doesn't give a fuck anymore, he's leaving.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:32

Yeah, but the injuries occur if you can manage your injuries through your mindset, you can be injured or you can talk yourself into an injury, and you can also talk yourself out of an injury. So the the power of the mind is phenomenal. So my question is is like, yeah, I guarantee you he's not feeling the love, so his body's like, I'm sharp.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:50

So that's why would you want to play your heart out? You're gonna get paid more money to go play for another club. Save yourself. But no loyalties. No, mate, there is no loyalty in sport. There's no loyalty anywhere. No, don't worry about sport. Oh, well, you're exactly right, mate. Highest bidder. Look at the Australian government. Oh mate.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:09

Thanks, mate. Appreciate it. Thank you.